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Author Topic: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?  (Read 2240 times)

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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2025, 03:57:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: HeidtXtreme on June 10, 2025, 11:31:45 AM
    Holy Ghost is what was universally used before Vatican II, so I use that.
    Not so. The Eastern Churches used Holy Spirit every bit as much as Holy Ghost in the years prior to Vatican II when writing and speaking in English. Holy Ghost has its roots in early modern English style (Book of Common Prayer, Great Bible, Shakespeare) whilst Holy Spirit is closer to the native Eastern European and Near East anguages spoken by Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #16 on: June 10, 2025, 04:16:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on June 10, 2025, 03:26:17 PM
    How about the Memorarie prayer of St Bernard.  Instead of "before thee I stand",, "before thee I kneel.
    In the original it was "stand" but they changed the whole prayer.  Maybe this is a good example of what Pius X meant when referring to modernism.
     
    Here's the original prayer from the 1858 Raccolta (Enchiridium Indulgentiarum)
     
    "Remember, Mary, tenderest-hearted Virgin, how from of old the ear hath never heard that he who ran to thee for refuge, implored thy help, and sought thy prayers, was forsaken of God, Virgin of virgins, Mother, emboldened by this confidence I fly to thee, to thee I come, and in thy presence I a weeping sinner stand.  Mother of the Word Incarnate, O cast not away my prayer; but in thy pity hear and answer. Amen.
     

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #17 on: June 10, 2025, 06:38:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 10, 2025, 03:57:02 PM
    Not so. The Eastern Churches used Holy Spirit every bit as much as Holy Ghost in the years prior to Vatican II when writing and speaking in English. Holy Ghost has its roots in early modern English style (Book of Common Prayer, Great Bible, Shakespeare) whilst Holy Spirit is closer to the native Eastern European and Near East anguages spoken by Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
    So in the Latin church, which is mainly in the West, ‘Holy Ghost’ was  the norm.  V2 mainly affected the West.  Everything you wrote is an exception, as the Eastern Catholics are a small part of the Latin Church.  
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #18 on: June 10, 2025, 07:35:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 10, 2025, 06:38:02 PM
    So in the Latin church, which is mainly in the West, ‘Holy Ghost’ was  the norm.  V2 mainly affected the West.  Everything you wrote is an exception, as the Eastern Catholics are a small part of the Latin Church. 
    Eastern Catholics are NOT part of the Latin Church. They are their own Churches (23 of them, using half a dozen distinct liturgical rites) that are their own autonomous ecclesiastical structures separate from but in communion with the Latin Church.

    But do you understand that we have in English inherited "Holy Ghost" from essentially Reformation-inspired literary sources?

    I say and write "Holy Ghost" probably 99% of the time. Aesthetically, I cringe at the sound of "Holy Spirit" in English.

    However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost". Its use predates the Novus Bogus. And this whole debate is a nonsensical argument by poorly-educated, insular trads who love to play "tradier-than-thou". And the very humourous thing is that in North America, one encounters "Holy Ghost" in conversation and prayer mostly amongst fundamentalist (not evangelical or pentecostal) Protestants as well as Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. And we trad Catholics.

    Trads need to stop being intellectual emarrassments! In undermines are struggle for the Faith and against the Modernists.
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    Offline SolHero

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #19 on: June 10, 2025, 08:26:59 PM »
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    • As I learned about tradition, it seemed to me that "Holy Ghost" was replaced by "Holy Spirit" after VII so I started saying "Holy Ghost". I noticed many books reprinted changed from one to the other. It made me wonder about why publishers would have gone through all the trouble to replace all mentions of "Holy Ghost".
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #20 on: June 10, 2025, 08:34:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: SolHero on June 10, 2025, 08:26:59 PM
    As I learned about tradition, it seemed to me that "Holy Ghost" was replaced by "Holy Spirit" after VII so I started saying "Holy Ghost". I noticed many books reprinted changed from one to the other. It made me wonder about why publishers would have gone through all the trouble to replace all mentions of "Holy Ghost".
    It is really a non-issue apart from "Holy Spirit" being less melodious to the Anglophone's ear than "Holy Ghost".

    Yet ... De gustibus non est disputandum.

    For consistency, one should use perhaps "Holy Ghost" (Anglo-Saxon) or use "Saint Spirit" (Norman French) for the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #21 on: June 10, 2025, 08:37:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 10, 2025, 07:35:53 PM
    Eastern Catholics are NOT part of the Latin Church.
    :facepalm:  You're the one who brought up the eastern catholics, in rebuttal to the pre-V2 comment.  Obviously, eastern catholics weren't affected by V2, so why you brought them up, is irrelevant.  I brought them up because "Holy Ghost" as you say, is typical of english-speaking countries, of which, even eastern-catholic countries speak, but due to their non-latin-church religious culture, don't use "Holy Ghost".  As I said, they are the exception to the rule.  The vast majority of the WESTERN english-speaking catholics, use "Holy Ghost".

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    But do you understand that we have in English inherited "Holy Ghost" from essentially Reformation-inspired literary sources?
    So what?  The point being that "Holy Ghost" has been used AT LEAST 500+ years and is the "norm".

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    However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost".
    It is and it isn't.  There's a reason that "Holy Ghost" started being used, and this thread has many examples.  Your view is missing the forest for the trees.

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    And this whole debate is a nonsensical argument
    No it's not.

    Quote
    by poorly-educated, insular trads who love to play "tradier-than-thou". And the very humourous thing is that in North America, one encounters "Holy Ghost" in conversation and prayer mostly amongst fundamentalist (not evangelical or pentecostal) Protestants as well as Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. And we trad Catholics.
    Many, many, MANY church prayers (written in ENGLISH) use the phrase "Holy Ghost".  If you think it doesn't matter, take it up with the Church.

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    Trads need to stop being intellectual emarrassments! In undermines are struggle for the Faith and against the Modernists.
    :facepalm:  500 years of using "Holy Ghost", and the Modernists get rid of it, and you're saying Trads are the embarrassment? ? ?  What are you smoking, man?

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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #22 on: June 10, 2025, 09:01:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 10, 2025, 08:37:19 PM
     What are you smoking, man?
    I sincerely wish that the ability to block persons were to exist on CathInfo.

    You, Pax, would be the first persom whom I would block.

    Are we even believers of the same Faith, catholic and apostolic, and of the same Church, one and holy? I have my doubts.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #23 on: June 10, 2025, 09:20:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 10, 2025, 09:01:22 PM
    I sincerely wish that the ability to block persons were to exist on CathInfo.

    You, Pax, would be the first persom whom I would block.

    Are we even believers of the same Faith, catholic and apostolic, and of the same Church, one and holy? I have my doubts.
    Right.  The V2 Modernists get rid of "Holy Ghost" and you say "hey, no big deal."  Then you trash Trads for being stupid.  You sound like Pope Francis.  Not sure why you're on this site.
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Are you a Holy Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #24 on: June 10, 2025, 09:47:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on June 10, 2025, 07:35:53 PM
    However, I know that "Holy Spirit" is of IDENTICAL meaning to "Holy Ghost".
    So does that mean it's OK to call St. Michael, St. Raphael, and St. Gabriel a Holy Ghost?  :facepalm:
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    Offline FourteenWords

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    Re: Are you a Holy Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #25 on: June 10, 2025, 10:29:21 PM »
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    • Usually Holy Ghost except when I'm referring to baptism of water and the Holy Spirit because that's what the Bible says. 
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Are you a Holly Ghost or a Holy Spirit?
    « Reply #26 on: June 11, 2025, 05:01:17 AM »
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    • Thanks all for an excellent debate.
    I suppose it all depends on the age you grew up in, and the way you learned your prayers.
    You see prayers were leaned off by heart and you repeat them from memory.
    That for me will never change. When I hear anyone say Holy Spirit I hear Vatican II.
    I also remember saying the prayer to Our Lady, 'before thee I kneel' not before thee I stand.
    When I read stand in my new rosary booklet I  always feel it lowers the status of the Mother of God
    almost like you shouldn't kneel before any statue except Jesus's statue.
    After Mass I see many kneel before the statue of Our Lady. I know what Jesus would say.
    That said, I do not suggest we pre-Vatican II Catholics are holier than post-Vatican II Catholics.
    Indeed the opposite, as they kept the faith when so many lost it.
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