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Author Topic: Are we Traditional Catholics??  (Read 4665 times)

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Offline John Steven

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Are we Traditional Catholics??
« on: January 12, 2007, 02:31:02 PM »
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  • A friend of mine attends a chapel where the priest has been known to say the following from the pulpit:

    "Are we Traditional Catholics, or are we just anti-Novus Ordo?!"

    Sadly, I think many people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass would fall under the latter from what I have seen and read lately. You can make no assumption about what the person sitting in the pew next to you thinks about any given issue other than the fact that they attend the Traditional Mass. It seems that is the only given you start with when getting to know a person. Everything else is fair game for debate.

    So, what does it mean to be a Traditional Catholic? Who determines what is traditional and what is not, especially when it comes to issues that are not directly related to Faith or dogma? Share your thoughts, please. I will myself when I have more time.


    Offline clare

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 02:43:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Steven
    So, what does it mean to be a Traditional Catholic? Who determines what is traditional and what is not, especially when it comes to issues that are not directly related to Faith or dogma? Share your thoughts, please. I will myself when I have more time.


    To me, being a traditional Catholic, is simply discovering communion with the saints and ordinary Catholics of before Vatican II.

    Living in today's society, but as if Vatican II and the New Rite had never happened! As I imagine the ordinary Catholics of today would have done, without Vatican II.

    Clare.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 03:17:31 PM »
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  • There are more than a couple of very holy priests who are quite willing to discuss and preach about how we should be living our daily lives. Bishop Williamson is perhaps the most popular example. When I hear holy men like this speak of things which I have not previously considered to be a Catholic issue, I listen and take note.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline John Steven

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 03:27:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    There are more than a couple of very holy priests who are quite willing to discuss and preach about how we should be living our daily lives. Bishop Williamson is perhaps the most popular example. When I hear holy men like this speak of things which I have not previously considered to be a Catholic issue, I listen and take note.


    I agree, although the typical response you will receive is that we are not obliged to have obedience to our priests because, due to the "irregular situation" we find ourselves in, the priests have no real jurisdiction and therefore no real authority as a parish priest does. I'm not making this stuff up. I've have heard this argument more than a few times to justify the refusal to listen to what priests tell us outside of matters directly related to the Faith.

    Offline Dawn

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 02:21:02 PM »
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  • My priest just spoke on this last Sunday. He listed some of the prayers, devotions, and fasts that we should be keeping so that we are really Catholic and not just anti-Novus Ordo


    Offline Trinity

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #5 on: January 13, 2007, 02:33:44 PM »
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  • Like what, Dawn.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline clare

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 01:35:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dawn
    My priest just spoke on this last Sunday. He listed some of the prayers, devotions, and fasts that we should be keeping so that we are really Catholic and not just anti-Novus Ordo


    This is what I mean by "imposing". "Should".

    It's one thing to encourage, it's another to call into question one's Catholicism if they don't go the whole hog, and wear hair shirts, or whatever!

    Is someone who takes the discipline to blood "more Catholic"? Shouldn't we therefore all strive to do that, if we want to be proper Catholics? Why are we content not to?

    Because people are different. They have different temperaments.

    Clare.

    Offline Trinity

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 01:55:55 PM »
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  • The word "should" places the threshold of imposition extrememly low.  I could tell you that you can baste the hem of your skirt, but you should hem it.  Is that an imposition?  Or just good advice?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline Miss_Fluffy

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #8 on: January 14, 2007, 05:35:22 PM »
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  • I think there are some problems with the term Traditional Catholic.  It seems to indicate that we are a different religion than Catholic.  As if a new denomination has developed.

    As far as living the right kind of life, simplifying things, reducing TV, being aware of how the world is messed up etc.  I've always had that, before I even knew I would find Catholicsm.   So I don't really equate those kind of things with Traditional Catholicism.

    It seems to me that following all the rules and morals of the church makes one "traditional" catholic.  I get it all the time from my, for lack of a better term, "regular" Catholic friends.  They accuse me of being sooo goood, just because I don't miss mass, and because I go to confession at least once a month.  But in reality, that should be what it takes just to be a Catholic, if you have an intact sense of integrity.

    Offline Matthew

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 05:54:07 PM »
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  • Yes, "traditional Catholic" should mean today what "Catholic" used to mean. We have to use the term "traditional" as if to say, "I'm a Catholic and I'm serious about my Faith".

    Beyond that, it also implies that we are set on keeping our Faith (doctrines, morals, practices, etc.) as it was from the beginning -- with no large ruptures.

    It's true that much of the "culture" that surrounds our Faith could be found elsewhere (for instance, frugality is also found among Green environmentalists, a more family-centered life is also found with the Mormons, etc.) but I think that since (traditional) Catholics have everything in order Supernaturally, then why not have the Natural in order as well?

    Just for good example, if nothing else. You have muslims (and protestants) who don't obsess about alcohol (or avoid it), you have Mormons who have "family day" once a week -- the TV goes off, the schedules are cleared, and time is spent together. The Amish manage to avoid high psychiatry bills by staying closer to a natural life. And so on.

    The problem is, ALL THESE FALSE RELIGIONS get it wrong. They go too far, because their religion isn't true, and so it can't guide them properly. Catholics have the prudence and guidance of the Church, and the example of thousands of saints. We should be able to figure out what to do :)

    This is a BIG topic though -- it will take more than one post to exhaust it. I just wanted to get started.

    Matthew
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    Offline John Steven

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 07:56:45 PM »
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  • Yes, Miss Fluffy (Hi, by the way!  :cheers: ) you are right that "Traditional Catholic" is sort of redundant. As Matthew said though, it is by necessity given the state of the current crisis to have to distinguish ourselves by a modifier. Would that a day will come soon when such an adjective does not need to precede the word "Catholic"!

    On a practical day-to-day level, I want to throw out my thoughts on what it means to be living the Catholic Faith. It is not an exhaustive list by any means so please feel free to add to it.

    1) Daily morning and evening prayer
    2) Reciting the Angelus morning, noon, and night and prayers before and after all meals
    3) Daily Rosary
    4) Daily Meditation on some truth of the Faith (Four Last Things, The Blessed Mother, etc.) or a chapter of Spiritual Reading (Imitation of Christ, Preparation for Death, etc)
    5) Reading of at least a half hour on some edifying subject such as the Classics, History, Crisis in the Church, etc.
    6) Giving a full days work for a full days pay, performing our daily duty faithfully.
    7) Avoiding all profanity in speech and off color or suggestive conversations. Keeping custody of the eyes, heart, and mind.
    8) Dressing with dignity, both men and women, according to our state in life.
    9) Total Consecration to the Blessed Mother according to the method of St Louis DeMontfort
    10) Weekly Communion, attending Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, as well as First Friday and Saturdays. If we have daily access to Mass we should make all efforts to go.
    11) A yearly or semi-yearly retreat
    12) Whenever we find our mind free from our tasks for a moment, let our thoughts return always to Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, the saints, etc. by some small aspiration or mental prayer such as "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner", "O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee", etc

    Ok, that's enough for now. I don't want to overwhelm anyone.  :shocked: The above is only a suggestion of what a persons day might look like and at first glance may see legalistic, but we have to have practical, tangible methods if we want to continue to or begin to grow in sanctity.  :soapbox:



    Offline Miss_Fluffy

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 08:07:44 PM »
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  • I'm there with 6,7,8,10, and 12.  I manage to pray once a day, and often forget to pray at meals.  I work on reading stuff on the weekends, but certainly not daily.

    I have a long ways to go :)

    Offline John Steven

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 08:15:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Miss_Fluffy
    I'm there with 6,7,8,10, and 12.  I manage to pray once a day, and often forget to pray at meals.  I work on reading stuff on the weekends, but certainly not daily.

    I have a long ways to go :)


    Don't worry, it is a daily struggle for me as well. ;)

    Offline Matthew

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 08:17:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Steven

    On a practical day-to-day level, I want to throw out my thoughts on what it means to be living the Catholic Faith. It is not an exhaustive list by any means so please feel free to add to it.

    1) Daily morning and evening prayer
    2) Reciting the Angelus morning, noon, and night and prayers before and after all meals
    3) Daily Rosary
    4) Daily Meditation on some truth of the Faith (Four Last Things, The Blessed Mother, etc.) or a chapter of Spiritual Reading (Imitation of Christ, Preparation for Death, etc)
    5) Reading of at least a half hour on some edifying subject such as the Classics, History, Crisis in the Church, etc.
    6) Giving a full days work for a full days pay, performing our daily duty faithfully.
    7) Avoiding all profanity in speech and off color or suggestive conversations. Keeping custody of the eyes, heart, and mind.
    8) Dressing with dignity, both men and women, according to our state in life.
    9) Total Consecration to the Blessed Mother according to the method of St Louis DeMontfort
    10) Weekly Communion, attending Mass on all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, as well as First Friday and Saturdays. If we have daily access to Mass we should make all efforts to go.
    11) A yearly or semi-yearly retreat
    12) Whenever we find our mind free from our tasks for a moment, let our thoughts return always to Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, the saints, etc. by some small aspiration or mental prayer such as "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner",


    These are all good suggestions.

    And I must say, that MOST of them are do-able even for a layman. Sometimes on a busy day the spiritual reading for 1/2 hour might be difficult, and daily Mass is a dream for most of us (both availability, and having the time) but many of your suggestions are suprisingly layman-friendly.

    For instance, the Imitation of Christ has very short chapters. But the material is DEEP and very helpful for the spiritual life. Just 5 minutes is all it would take. And the book is pocket-size and cheap!

    Daily morning/evening prayer anyone can (and should) do -- quantity is not important, only consistency. Just be faithful to a few vocal prayers to start/end your day. Again, we're talking a few minutes.

    The Rosary is VERY important, in this age we're in. Our Lady will preserve those who are devoted to her. We all NEED HER HELP, and desperately! We're fighting against Satan and his big guns. The Rosary CAN be said in the car if need be, though it's probably better to say it at home IF you have a choice -- but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! Rosary on the way to/from work is better than no Rosary. You can even break it up 2 decades on the way to work/ 3 decades on the way home.

    For the Total Consecration (see above paragraph on the Rosary), you just have to read a bit and prepare, and make the consecration once. Then you just say a SHORT invocation every morning, and say the longer form on big Marian feasts and/or the anniversary day of your consecration.

    Doing an honest day's work doesn't take any extra time :) Same with trying to guide our kids (if any) to sanctity. Basically, do our duty of state as best we can. That is how we'll become saints -- in the vocation God put us in.

    Prayers before/after meals helps to bring the Faith into daily life. It doesn't take long -- you just need to form the habit. We're not protestants, so we don't have to come up with our own custom blessing for each meal :) It's not heretical or anything, but overly difficult. Just use the stock Catholic prayer, "Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts which we are about to receive, from Thy bounty, through Christ our Lord. Amen." and perhaps add, "May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen."

    The last point -- try to raise our minds/hearts to God during the day -- will be helped if you set an alarm to help you recite the Angelus, etc. but also it helps to cut out as many worldly distractions as possible. Don't have a radio or TV running all the time -- embrace silence when you can. God will not compete with CNN to speak in your soul.

    I'm as distracted as anyone, so I can't imagine how much more distracted I'd be if I allowed all the modern "media" in the house!  I figure the house is one place where we don't have to look at advertising. It's the one refuge from the world!

    Have you ever heard how all temptations come from "The world, the flesh, and the devil"? Interesting what order they're in... I think they're in order -- most come from the world, 2nd most come from the flesh and the fewest number come from the devil. (Actually, "I think" isn't entirely accurate -- many saints and mystics have said the same thing)

    Matthew

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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Are we Traditional Catholics??
    « Reply #14 on: January 14, 2007, 08:40:50 PM »
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    11) A yearly or semi-yearly retreat


    I think this is important, but unfortunately the accessability of good retreats makes it very difficult for many people. While I attended the NO church and was single, I was keeping up with this, but many of those retreats were only decent because I didn't know any better. I've never regretted any time or money spent on retreats, though. God seemed to make the best of even the mediocre ones to strengthen my faith and draw me closer to what He desires.

    Unfortunately, I haven't seen any ads for a "Mommy and Me" Ignatian retreat.  :smirk:
     :baby:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson