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Author Topic: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?  (Read 4179 times)

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Offline LeMond

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Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
« on: July 05, 2022, 07:35:13 AM »
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    • This isn't a question about the validity of Novus Ordo canonizations/beatifications. Most of us here know that they are highly suspect and doubtful. We also know that a person need not be canonized to be a saint. Are there Novus Ordoites who are saints? 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #1 on: July 05, 2022, 07:50:00 AM »
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    • IMO, no.  Although some might adhere to the Conciliar Church in good faith, this is just a step shy of asking whether there are Protestant saints.  I should think that having been duped by a false religion would preclude elevation to sainthood.  Yes, St. Vincent Ferrer appears to have sided with the wrong pope during the Great Western Schism, but there was no question of the faith being compromised by any of them.  This Novus Ordo "saint" would have sided with the false Conciliar Church, which is doing its best to destroy the Catholic Church.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #2 on: July 05, 2022, 07:50:39 AM »
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    • I think the only way that a Novus Ordo could be a "saint" would be if they actually professed the Catholic Faith.  But then would they truly be "Novus Ordo"?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Mike Henderson

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #3 on: July 05, 2022, 08:21:58 AM »
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    • If you profess the Modernist Vatican 2 faith, then you can be a 'Novus Ordo saint', but I don't see how you can be a Catholic saint.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #4 on: July 05, 2022, 08:29:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 05, 2022, 07:50:39 AM
    I think the only way that a Novus Ordo could be a "saint" would be if they actually professed the Catholic Faith.  But then would they truly be "Novus Ordo"?

    I think that there are many in the NO who do profess the Catholic Faith, but are in material error.  What makes Conciliar Church different from all the others is that it claims to be the Catholic Church, so there's a huge difference between those who, say, go Greek Orthodox vs. those who remain with the Novus Ordo because they've been fooled for accepting its claims to be the Catholic Church.  But I believe that falling for the ruse suggests a lack of deep faith, which would be a prerequisite for canonization IMO.  Now, mind you, this is different than saying that there aren't any Catholic in the NO who may have great personal virtue and even go straight to Heaven without Purgatory ... but part of canonization is to raise people to the altar who should serve as examples to the Church.  So, for instance, if a theologian taught serious error, even if in good faith (was sincerely mistaken), the Church would be reluctant to canonize him lest people take that as condoning the error he taught.  I think that the same thing would apply here.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #5 on: July 05, 2022, 08:56:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 05, 2022, 08:29:42 AM
    I think that there are many in the NO who do profess the Catholic Faith, but are in material error.  What makes Conciliar Church different from all the others is that it claims to be the Catholic Church, so there's a huge difference between those who, say, go Greek Orthodox vs. those who remain with the Novus Ordo because they've been fooled for accepting its claims to be the Catholic Church.  But I believe that falling for the ruse suggests a lack of deep faith, which would be a prerequisite for canonization IMO.  Now, mind you, this is different than saying that there aren't any Catholic in the NO who may have great personal virtue and even go straight to Heaven without Purgatory ... but part of canonization is to raise people to the altar who should serve as examples to the Church.  So, for instance, if a theologian taught serious error, even if in good faith (was sincerely mistaken), the Church would be reluctant to canonize him lest people take that as condoning the error he taught.  I think that the same thing would apply here.
    I agree with most of what you have written here.  As for the bolded....Yes, this is possible, but they must profess the Catholic Faith.  If not, great personal virtue isn't enough.  Non-Catholics can have as much.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #6 on: July 05, 2022, 09:29:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 05, 2022, 08:56:02 AM
    I agree with most of what you have written here.  As for the bolded....Yes, this is possible, but they must profess the Catholic Faith.  If not, great personal virtue isn't enough.  Non-Catholics can have as much.

    Right.  I have known many in the Novus Ordo who, as far as I can tell, do profess the Catholic Faith.  I knew of their having held no actual heresy, even if they held some lesser errors.  They have the formal intent to submit to the Church's teaching authority (which constitutes the formal motive of supernatural faith), even if they are mistaken about where that teaching authority lies today.  As for the errors of Vatican II, many of them in their minds think of the error of Religious Liberty, for instance, as more along the lines of Religious Tolerance.  Or, like Bishop Schneider, think it's wrong and needs to be corrected.  Those who try (IMO in vain) to apply a "hermeneutic of continuity" (attempting to reconcile V2 with Tradition) demonstrate prima facie that they consider it important/critical to reconcile it with Catholic teaching (even if their attempts are futile or misguided).

    So having the proper formal motive while being mistaken regarding fact, that's the very definition of material "heresy".
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #7 on: July 05, 2022, 09:17:04 PM »
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    • No.  Next question...
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    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #8 on: July 05, 2022, 10:40:47 PM »
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    • I don't know. It's possible. This is one of the maybes -- priests and religious killed in state-atheist, Socialist Albania and often killed for spreading the Faith or in the case of priests, administering the Sacraments. This went on into the 70s, so that's where the maybe comes from.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #9 on: July 06, 2022, 07:55:57 PM »
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    • I would say that there are certainly some saint in heaven who, for one reason or another, attended the Novus Ordo.  There really were many years in which a person could hold and profess the true faith while attending the only services available.  This may be true, to a limited degree, even today.
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #10 on: July 06, 2022, 10:35:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Minnesota on July 05, 2022, 10:40:47 PM
    I don't know. It's possible. This is one of the maybes -- priests and religious killed in state-atheist, Socialist Albania and often killed for spreading the Faith or in the case of priests, administering the Sacraments. This went on into the 70s, so that's where the maybe comes from.
    As the NWO antichurch rises I strongly believe those who were in the VII sect will be martyred for converting to the True Faith. Forced "vaccinations", Gitmo like camps, hits etc for people who truly love Christ. If you believe anything real the NWO wants you dead. 

    I strongly suspect this is what happened to Vigano... Lex orandi lex credendi and, contrary to what many here hold, he is waking up. Saying the True Mass granted this priest extraordinary graces and now the world is out to get him. 

    Anyone who genuinely desires God over all else will not be abandoned, and I do think there are many in the VII sect who desire to please God and He will grant them signal graces when fit for a complete conversion.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #11 on: July 07, 2022, 07:28:40 AM »
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    • I think there are rare people who may attend the NO that are saints despite the NO and certainly not because of it. These people have an innate Sensus Catholicus.
    I know most people here won't agree, and logically I wouldn't either, but I know a couple of holy people that still attend the NO, I would call them saints.  Don't ask me how this happens, but the Holy Ghost goes where he wills. They seem to transcend their liturgy.


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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #12 on: July 07, 2022, 04:00:12 PM »
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    • I won't shoot you, Josefa.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #13 on: July 07, 2022, 05:47:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on July 07, 2022, 04:00:12 PM
    I won't shoot you, Josefa.

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    Some of these cases are a bit borderline.  They weren't arrested for their faith but due to their bleeding over into politics.  Nor does getting killed by the secret police suffice for sanctity.
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Are There Novus Ordo Saints?
    « Reply #14 on: July 07, 2022, 05:54:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 07, 2022, 05:47:52 PM
    Some of these cases are a bit borderline.  They weren't arrested for their faith but due to their bleeding over into politics.  Nor does getting killed by the secret police suffice for sanctity.
    You be the judge.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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