Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Capt McQuigg on July 17, 2012, 11:56:09 AM
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:confused1:
I suspect yes but I don't want to be uncharitable.
What do you guys think?
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This is an interesting topic. I was immediately reminded of the movie: "When we were soldiers" (Mel Gibson, 2002).
Part of a dialogue "Mel" is having with his children:
Moore: Cecile? I don't hear you praying, honey.
Cecile: I don't wanna be a Catholic! I wanna be a Nethodist like Mommy!
Moore: A-and why's that?
Cecile: So I can pray whatever I want.
Older Brother: That's a sin!
Moore: Oh, no-no-no, that's not a sin. God just made you hard-headed. It's not a sin. Uh, I'll tell you what. You wanna, you wanna pray and thank God for our family?
And he begins with: Hail Mary, Full of Grace, The Lord is with Thee....
I'm sure the Prots would come out with all the 'bible verses' concerning this:(Little do they understand some of that 'bible' they carry, is a remnant of a robbed and looted BIBLE from the Catholics).
But to the point, many Catholic priests and the writings of the Saints (St. Therese of Lisieux)would also tell us we must also pray to God, in our own words. Our Blessed Lady has said the same. (For those who want citations, dates, titles etc...don't bother).
But to address the question...well, all I can say at this moment is: Who knows the mind of God? and to beg the question further: What do we know from Traditional Catholic teaching?
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Why wouldn't God listen to their prays if they are truly striving to love God with all their hearts and being obedient to all the commandments according to the light they've been given by the Holy Spirit? Most Protestants are material heretics who don't know any better. They've been indoctrinated with Protestant errors their whole lives. I might add that oftentimes Protestants put Catholics to shame.
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It clearly depends on the prayer and the context of the prayer, does it not?
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It clearly depends on the prayer and the context of the prayer, does it not?
Please elaborate on that one.
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It clearly depends on the prayer and the context of the prayer, does it not?
Please elaborate on that one.
If someone is praying in a Protestant assembly they are endorsing Protestantism.
If someone in good faith asks for God's help, that's another matter. Don't you think?
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It clearly depends on the prayer and the context of the prayer, does it not?
Right. I don’t think that any truly sincere prayer to Jesus could be offensive to him. It’s true that we should not pray with Protestants, but this is due to non- community of belief, rather than implying an absolute judgment on Protestants’ prayers. But in fact it’s likely that many Protestants and Catholics wind up praying in ways that, lacking sincerity, including heretical or impious ideas, or seeking to impose, are in one degree or another offensive to God.
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I think this question is what the VII teaching on "baptism of desire" was getting at. I grew up Protestant, and I would certainly hope that nobody would say that my childhood prayers, full of faith and hope and trust in Jesus Christ, were somehow offensive to Christ. Or that, had I died after nightly prayers, Christ would abandon me to Hell for not being Catholic. However, once I learned the Truth of the Catholic Church, I immediately converted, at least in heart (not 'officially' til Easter Vigil, 2009). Had I not converted, and chosen to remain Prot, then my prayers might be despised by Christ. IDK, good question, lots to think about.
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I'm not so sure about a lot of this anymore. There was a time when I was very "ecuмenical"...
Of course, it's not in my hands.
A young protestant child could certainly pray but once someone reaches adulthood, what would their excuses be for being obstinate in intellectually embracing protestantism?
Perhaps a protestant could pray for guidance but they would also have to act on that guidance.
Protestants are different from Jєωs in that a Jєω could stake a claim that the Old Dispensation was never abrogated but a protestant is holding fast to heresy.
Tough stuff.
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Well, here is a letter from St.Augustine distinguishing what would come to be called material from formal heresy.
"But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you."
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the only times i heard protestsntas praying
they were dictating longwinded letters to God before audience (family, friends, strangers, passerby)
or they were reciting psalms, usually the Lord is my shepherd which i guess must be the only psalm in the protestahydgat Bible
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the only times i heard protestsntas praying
they were dictating longwinded letters to God before audience (family, friends, strangers, passerby)
or they were reciting psalms, usually the Lord is my shepherd which i guess must be the only psalm in the protestahydgat Bible
For a while before I found Catholicism, I went to a "Word Faith" evangelical church. They do in fact dictate to God and actually teach that if they demand something "in Faith", God HAS to obey them! Also you know God truly loves you when you can afford a Lexus. And if you are sick or poor or suffering, you just don't have enough faith to force God to give you health, money and happiness.
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This reminds me of a time when I'd been sitting out on the front porch of the apt. bldg. I'd lived at one hot summer eve. A van pulled up about to let out one of the residents and she (the driver) invited me over to talk. They wanted to pull me into being "saved" and "Jesus as my personal Savior" and all the rest. She asked me to pray with them. I respectfully stood by watching as they lowered their heads and she began to babble like nuts about God, Our Father 10 consecutive times....when all of a sudden her cell phone rang...and she INSTANTLY shut off the prayer stuff to answer the phone. The call was her 'babble friend' and it sounded like she could have gone on forever about "how bad the show was" and 'no, we didn't stop for a drink' and just stupid stuff. The poor guy she was supposed to letting out just sat back rolling his eyes and yawning...like "get me out of here already"...
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speaking of proasugtygasnets I went to steubenville youth conf
oh no nyln thinks hes jim gaffigan
was ten years ago maybe this week for all I know
definately was ten years ago, went in 2002, and it was in july maybe
anyway
we had adoration of the Blessed Sacrament one night
you shoulda see the kids crying and laughing and screaming as the monstrance came around
might have been the diocesan bishop might have been a priest
the bishop did deliver homily at a later Mass so maybe wasnt him
bizarre sight
also during adoration the lay MC had the mic up on stage and kept saying "Jesus" overandoverandoverandover again the whole time
was like "shut the mic off for goodness sakes"
diocesan bishop wasnt there or probly woulda told him to shuddup
later my NO parish priest was quizzed about such things, and he never heard of it in all his years
although he was prob 15 years ordained at the time
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oh yeah point was
they do the same thing in that proteastangant church too
think its the pentecostalists
I remember seeing the same stuff in a video about aimee joseph somethingorother who did that kind of thing
so I guess the stuebenville thing was a kind of protessatgynt prayer service
long before I had the good fortune of knowing about trad movement i was very skeptical of such going ons in church
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I worked the sound board at this evangelical church and i noticed something. They do lik half an hour of 'praise and worship' music, and after a few months i noticed a pattern. They start hard, with a modern rock, poppy song that gets everyone clapping. Then the next song is slower and gets everyone swaying. Then two more rock type songs. The first gets them clapping again, and the second is even louder and harder and by the end they are jumping up and down. Then suddenly back to slow, sad, swaying. After working them into a frenzy, suddenly bring them down. Many start weeping. Then at the end of that song they extend it with long, solemn electric keyboard chords, while the people sway and pray with their eyes closed. The preacher keeps them going, softly repeating yes Jesus, yes Jesus over and over. Then come out the collection plates!
It is a mind game. These people know how to manipulate others very well, and yeah they can turn it on and off just like that because even the most 'faithful' of them know, deep down inside, that they are full of it. It is a religion full of actors and shysters.
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The first gets them clapping again, and the second is even louder and harder and by the end they are jumping up and down. Then suddenly back to slow, sad, swaying. After working them into a frenzy, suddenly bring them down. Many start weeping. Then at the end of that song they extend it with long, solemn electric keyboard chords, while the people sway and pray with their eyes closed. The preacher keeps them going, softly repeating yes Jesus, yes Jesus over and over. Then come out the collection plates!
It is a mind game.
Doesn't it make you wish 'hollyweird' would do a remake of "Elmer Gantry"? :laugh1:
I mean really, if I had tons of money I wouldn't pay for their psychiatric treatments....instead, I'd point them to the nearest Traditional Catholic Chapel to convert, learn the true Catechism, and make their first CONFESSION!
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Lets see how many 'thumbs down' I get for that one!!! :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:
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I spoke to a priest about this last week. I didn't know it was wrong to attend a protestant church service. I'm curious about social or charity events where they say a prayer or have a short devotion. For example a charity sewing group where at the end they read a 2 minute devotion and say a prayer. Do I excuse myself before the devotion? What about eating meals with protestant when they pray?
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I spoke to a priest about this last week. I didn't know it was wrong to attend a protestant church service. I'm curious about social or charity events where they say a prayer or have a short devotion. For example a charity sewing group where at the end they read a 2 minute devotion and say a prayer. Do I excuse myself before the devotion? What about eating meals with protestant when they pray?
Your priest would be best to advise you on this, but I've been told by a priest: "Make the sign of the cross, say an Our Father or Hail Mary, and finish with the sign of the cross"
Nothing can be a clearer sign of your Catholic Faith. And if anyone should ask you: "are you Catholic?"....answer: "by the grace of God, I'm Catholic". That should do it.
You may be nervous because it is bold, but they are bold in their error- You be bold in the Truth.
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Tiffany wrote:
"I spoke to a priest about this last week. I didn't know it was wrong to attend a protestant church service. I'm curious about social or charity events where they say a prayer or have a short devotion. For example a charity sewing group where at the end they read a 2 minute devotion and say a prayer. Do I excuse myself before the devotion? What about eating meals with protestant when they pray?"
Tiffany, sacred worship with non-Catholics is forbidden. This means attending worship services. Public prayers are fine, i.e. prayers to begin or end a meeting, at meals, etc. As Roman55 has said, begin and end with the sign of the cross. Also, learn how to pray the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Gloria and Angelus, in Latin. Actually, try to learn as many prayers as you can in Latin. You are a Latin Rite Catholic, after all.
Pax Christi,
Brian
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Also, learn how to pray the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Gloria and Angelus, in Latin. Actually, try to learn as many prayers as you can in Latin. You are a Latin Rite Catholic, after all.
Pax Christi,
Brian
That is some 'smokin hot' advice! Thank you for that! I hear the Devil HATES Latin!
:light-saber:
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Also, learn how to pray the Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Gloria and Angelus, in Latin. Actually, try to learn as many prayers as you can in Latin. You are a Latin Rite Catholic, after all.
Pax Christi,
Brian
That is some 'smokin hot' advice! Thank you for that! I hear the Devil HATES Latin!
:light-saber:
Hey Roman55, it's why I started learning them in Latin. I found myself getting distracted in prayer by the pesky buggers. :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: As I became used to praying in Latin, I started to forget the English versions.:laugh1: Now I go back and forth between Latin and English.
Pax Christi,
Brian
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This dovetails nicely into a discussion that was recently had regarding whether man's participation in natural law is always sufficient for him to be called moral. I posited that, in those cases where the observance of natural law does not come in the service of a religion or cultural affectation that is inimical to the true Christian religion, such a thing could be meritorious to a degree. However, when those things are done in observance of a false religion, and especially to establish that person in obstinate belief and participation of it, I would argue that such a thing is odious to God.
However much Protestantism may superficially resemble the Catholic faith, which is uniquely and integrally the divinely revealed religion of God, it is substantially false. It worships as its central figure and Person of the Godhead (and even the latter is variable; in Unitarian Protestantism there are no persons, and in Mormonism He is not God at all) a version of Christ that is objectively and historically untrue, and ascribes to Him a theology that is alien to the true faith. The simple acceptance of Jesus Christ as Deity and a vague or totally incorrect notion of His role as the propitiation of all the sins of mankind is, in my estimation, insufficient to be considered the exercise of Christian faith. I would further argue that prayers offered in the service of false religions, however well-meaning they might be, are still done in service of a religion that is objectively false. To say otherwise, would be no different than to say that the prayers of a Moslem, whose false religion nonetheless places Jesus Christ as the greatest prophet of God, even above the Mohammed himself, are efficacious and pleasing to God.
A prayer is an expression of the interior spiritual life, which begins and ends in the service of that religion to which that spiritual life is dedicated. The prayer as one of the most fundamental expressions of that religion must, I think, rightly be presumed to fall under the species of virtual intention to practice a false religion, insofar as the prayer, though not presently explicitly dedicated to a religion inimical to God and His true Church, nonetheless follows from a prior intellectual assent to the truth and efficacy of the same.
Against, this is just my own opinion.
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(and even the latter is variable; in Unitarian Protestantism there are no persons, and in Mormonism He is not God at all) a version of Christ that is objectively and historically untrue, and ascribes to Him a theology that is alien to the true faith.
This reminds me to ask, as I've been meaning to: "Where does someone like Mitt Romney, Pat Boone, The Osmond's and the like get their graces? ie; clean cut, All American, successful, perfect white teeth, and lives nearly as clean as a whistle! Hardly at all associated in anyway with a 'scandal'. Just curious for input.
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(and even the latter is variable; in Unitarian Protestantism there are no persons, and in Mormonism He is not God at all) a version of Christ that is objectively and historically untrue, and ascribes to Him a theology that is alien to the true faith.
This reminds me to ask, as I've been meaning to: "Where does someone like Mitt Romney, Pat Boone, The Osmond's and the like get their graces? ie; clean cut, All American, successful, perfect white teeth, and lives nearly as clean as a whistle! Hardly at all associated in anyway with a 'scandal'. Just curious for input.
First, you make the unfounded assumption that they are living virtuous lives. We have only the most public of their actions to determine their virtue. While I can't say anything about the Osmonds or Pat Boone (because I've never troubled myself to gain knowledge the lives of useless people), Mitt Romney is a well-known statist and during his political career has given public support for the legality of abortion in the United States.
Second, is it inconceivable that Satan would choose to not interfere in the exercise of such outwardly meritorious acts if the presumptive graces of those acts were destroyed by their exercise in service of false religion, and so that such upright action in the service of a false religion might aid in the spread of that false religion as well as religious indifferentism, to the ruin of souls?
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(http://th376.photobucket.com/albums/oo201/kurizeru06/th_snob.jpg)
Yes! Yes! I see your point!.....
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(http://th376.photobucket.com/albums/oo201/kurizeru06/th_snob.jpg)
Yes! Yes! I see your point!.....
That's odd. I don't remember ever sitting for a caricature.
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I was looking in the Baltimore Catechism (1941 ed.) to find where I swear I heard that it was OK to attend a Protestant church if one did not participate by saying their prayers or doing what they do, for instance to attend a wedding of a Protestant friend or whatever. Did find this though, which might be relevant to the thread and my own previous comment about baptism of desire.
168. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?
Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.
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Thank you for the answers, I feel encouraged now. :)
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God hears all, but to everyone receives graces, thats another question! For catholics, in order to gain an indulgence, we must be the the state of Grace. We can't forget actual grace which is for everyone. It is God trying to bring us to Him.
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I'm not so sure about a lot of this anymore. There was a time when I was very "ecuмenical"...
Of course, it's not in my hands.
A young protestant child could certainly pray but once someone reaches adulthood, what would their excuses be for being obstinate in intellectually embracing protestantism?
Perhaps a protestant could pray for guidance but they would also have to act on that guidance.
Protestants are different from Jєωs in that a Jєω could stake a claim that the Old Dispensation was never abrogated but a protestant is holding fast to heresy.
Tough stuff.
Most Protestants don't know they are holding on to heresy. They are material heretics, not formal ones. And I am sure God can sort it out with perfect justice and perfect mercy.
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I worked the sound board at this evangelical church and i noticed something. They do lik half an hour of 'praise and worship' music, and after a few months i noticed a pattern. They start hard, with a modern rock, poppy song that gets everyone clapping. Then the next song is slower and gets everyone swaying. Then two more rock type songs. The first gets them clapping again, and the second is even louder and harder and by the end they are jumping up and down. Then suddenly back to slow, sad, swaying. After working them into a frenzy, suddenly bring them down. Many start weeping. Then at the end of that song they extend it with long, solemn electric keyboard chords, while the people sway and pray with their eyes closed. The preacher keeps them going, softly repeating yes Jesus, yes Jesus over and over. Then come out the collection plates!
It is a mind game. These people know how to manipulate others very well, and yeah they can turn it on and off just like that because even the most 'faithful' of them know, deep down inside, that they are full of it. It is a religion full of actors and shysters.
That is really fascinating!
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I was looking in the Baltimore Catechism (1941 ed.) to find where I swear I heard that it was OK to attend a Protestant church if one did not participate by saying their prayers or doing what they do, for instance to attend a wedding of a Protestant friend or whatever. Did find this though, which might be relevant to the thread and my own previous comment about baptism of desire.
168. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?
Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.
I think you still have to get dispensation from a Priest prior to attendance so that you do not commit Scandal. Non Participation will be one of the requirements. If or when Catholics pray with anyone other than Catholics in a Public forum - it must be in a Catholic manner - for instance
Praying with a person you know to be a Protestant - the Holy Rosary in a Traditional Catholic Church is always fine.
A Catholic saying the Lutheran Version of the Our Father in a Lutheran Church with Lutherans where some of the people there know you are a Catholic is sinful and scandalous and not permitted
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I'm not so sure about a lot of this anymore. There was a time when I was very "ecuмenical"...
Of course, it's not in my hands.
A young protestant child could certainly pray but once someone reaches adulthood, what would their excuses be for being obstinate in intellectually embracing protestantism?
Perhaps a protestant could pray for guidance but they would also have to act on that guidance.
Protestants are different from Jєωs in that a Jєω could stake a claim that the Old Dispensation was never abrogated but a protestant is holding fast to heresy.
Tough stuff.
Most Protestants don't know they are holding on to heresy. They are material heretics, not formal ones. And I am sure God can sort it out with perfect justice and perfect mercy.
Are you primarily referring to illiterates or poverty stricken peoples in third world countries? Because protestants in the U.S. and throughout Europe and Asia are literate and have access to the internet.
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They may know that other people think they hold heresy. They don't know it is heresy. The fact that they are wrong does not mean they are insincere.
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They may know that other people think they hold heresy. They don't know it is heresy. The fact that they are wrong does not mean they are insincere.
Do you find the evangelical Israeli-worship infuriating? I surely do. You do know that outside of a baptism of desire one who is not Catholic cannot be saved correct?
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They may know that other people think they hold heresy. They don't know it is heresy. The fact that they are wrong does not mean they are insincere.
Do you find the evangelical Israeli-worship infuriating? I surely do. You do know that outside of a baptism of desire one who is not Catholic cannot be saved correct?
Those who benefit from baptism of desire are Catholics, though. ONLY Catholics are in Heaven.
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Do you find the evangelical Israeli-worship infuriating? I surely do.
Infuriating? Absolutely.
I even find it to be proof of just how profound their spiritual sickness really is. And that's being charitable.
Much of the fawning the "evangelicals" show toward the modern state of Israel is also a putrid form of groveling. It's also partly to be expected when the historical references of the protestants is so shallow as to be laughable.
Protestantism denies many key Holy Church dogmas and it actually strips Christ of many dignities - it is incomprehensible for protestantism to have a legitimate historical understanding of Christ and how the Holy Ghost has worked in the life of the Holy Church.
Also, by fawning and committing so much of their energy and their funds to a false cause like the modern state of Israel shows their lack of not only spiritual discernment but secular discernment.
So, could it be surmised that in addition to being offensive to the Lord, they are also proving themselves to be foolish? I guarantee that after the Jєωs are done exploiting them, they will drop them unceremoniously and even increase their constant lying about "antisemitism". We can't blame the Jєωs for taking advantage of foolish protestants even though usury and deceit are normal conditions of Jєωιѕн behavior.
But back to the topic at hand. What possible good could protestant prayer lead to? When the protestant praying denies the Blessed Virgin her privileges and strips all dignity from the Blessed Sacrament?
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They may know that other people think they hold heresy. They don't know it is heresy. The fact that they are wrong does not mean they are insincere.
Do you find the evangelical Israeli-worship infuriating? I surely do. You do know that outside of a baptism of desire one who is not Catholic cannot be saved correct?
Well, I find the worship of anything other than God infuriating.
Certainly people who are not visibly Catholic can only be saved through baptism of desire, whether implicit or explicit. As a post below correctly points out though, such people really are Catholic by desire.
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I worked the sound board at this evangelical church and i noticed something. They do lik half an hour of 'praise and worship' music, and after a few months i noticed a pattern. They start hard, with a modern rock, poppy song that gets everyone clapping. Then the next song is slower and gets everyone swaying. Then two more rock type songs. The first gets them clapping again, and the second is even louder and harder and by the end they are jumping up and down. Then suddenly back to slow, sad, swaying. After working them into a frenzy, suddenly bring them down. Many start weeping. Then at the end of that song they extend it with long, solemn electric keyboard chords, while the people sway and pray with their eyes closed. The preacher keeps them going, softly repeating yes Jesus, yes Jesus over and over. Then come out the collection plates!
It is a mind game. These people know how to manipulate others very well, and yeah they can turn it on and off just like that because even the most 'faithful' of them know, deep down inside, that they are full of it. It is a religion full of actors and shysters.
That is really fascinating!
Yep, and if you happen to be a stockholder in the Peoples Bankski of Bosnia Herzogovina, you will find the profits fascinatring, too! This is the same psyops technique that built Medjugoogoo-dom into a billion dollar cash cow.
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Whenever our extended family gets together (which is pretty rare) someone is
designated as the person to say grace before meals. Although we are all Catholic,
most members are exclusively new order, and have no experience with the
Canonized Traditional Latin Mass and Sacraments. Therefore, they all expect to
hear something closer to a Protestant "Thanksgiving Before Meals."
Catholics traditionally do not "give thanks" before meals. They give thanks, rather,
AFTER meals. Before meals, Catholics traditionally ask for God's blessing on:
1) the food, for the purpose of "removing the food from the dominion of the evil
one." This effectively cancels out any pagan dedication or curse that anyone could
have attached to the food along the way of its production in the marketplace. In
saner times it was referred to as "meat sacrificed to idols." Meat can mean
vegetables, grains or dairy products as well as animal meats.
2) ourselves, that is, we who are about to eat the food.
Therefore, when one of us who says the blessing simply uses the standard short
form, "Bless us, o Lord, and these Thy gifts, ..." members of the family tend to
murmur and grumble that that was not sufficient. They are accustomed, as I said,
a more Protestant approach, which, I guess, is being promoted by their local
pastors, otherwise, why would they be so convinced it's such a good idea?
Lest anyone misunderstand, it is the Catholic way to focus primarily on the
spiritual aspect of prayer, that is, with our own particular end in mind. It is only
this short time on earth that we have to prepare our souls for their eternal
destiny, whatever that is, but we have the opportunity now to do something about
it, whereas if we wait till "later," like Scarlet O'Hara in Gone with the Wind, we
could find ourselves one day having run out of time, at which point it will have
been too late to accomplish what we can if we start now.
It is the Protestant way to think only of temporal things in prayer and to make
demands on God to give us what we want. Therefore, in a family meal setting
they might thank God for the privilege of us all being here together today to have
this time and this meal, and for our health and prosperous employment, and our
new Lexus or whatever. These are all temporal, transitory, superficial and in a
large way UNIMPORTANT things in regards to our eternal salvation, for "What
does it profit a man to gain the whole world and to lose his soul in eternity?"
Please take note of the words below, "May the King of eternal glory make us
partakers in His heavenly meal." And elsewhere: "May the Lord grant to us, who
do good works, heavenly rewards instead of earthly reward, and eternal rewards
instead of temporal rewards."
Anyway, here are the prayers that are traditionally Catholic blessings for meals,
in Latin and in English. At the end, I will offer some suggestions for members to
consider to use at family gatherings to give them all something to think about....
Latin grace before meals:
Benedic, Domine, nos et haec tua dona, quae de
tua largitate sumus sumpturi. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
R. Amen.
English translation:
Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts, which we
are about to receive from Thy bounty. Through Christ Our Lord.
R. Amen.
In Larger Context:
BENEDICTIONES MENSAE
ANTE PRANDIUM
The Priest: Benedicite.
All: Benedicite.
The Priest: Oculi omnium
And all continue: in te sperant, Domine, et tu das illis escam in
tempore opportuno. Aperis tu manum tuam, et imples omne animal in
benedictione. Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat
in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeulorum. Amen.
Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
Pater noster... [continue in silence up to:]
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
The Priest then says: Benedic, Domine, nos et haec tua dona, quae de
tua largitate sumus sumpturi. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
R. Amen.
Then the Priest says: Iube, Domine, benedicere.
The Priest: Mensae caelestis participes faciat nos Rex aeternae
gloriae.
R. Amen.
BLESSINGS FOR MEALS
BEFORE DINNER
The Priest: May God bless you.
All: May God bless you.
The Priest: The eyes of all
And all continue: hope in Thee, Lord, and Thou givest them food at a
seasonable time. Thou openest Thy hand, and Thou fillest every living thing
with blessing. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy
Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without
end. Amen.
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Our Father... [continue in silence up to:]
V. And lead us not into temptation.
R. But deliver us from evil.
The Priest then says: Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts, which we
are about to receive from Thy bounty. Through Christ Our Lord.
R. Amen.
Then the Priest says: Lord, we ask your blessing.
The Priest: May the King of eternal glory make us partakers in His
heavenly meal.
R. Amen.
POST PRANDIUM
The Priest begins: Tu autem, Domine, miserere nobis.
R. Deo gratias. All rise.
The Priest: Confiteantur tibi, Domine, omnia opera tua.
R. Et sancti tui benedicant tibi. Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui
Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula
saeculorum. Amen.
The Priest continues: Agimus tibi gratias, omnipotens Deus, pro
universis beneficiis tuis: Qui vivis et regnas in saecula saeculorum.
R. Amen.
The following psalm is then said by all:
Laudate Dominum, omnes gentes,
laudate eum, omnes populi.
Quoniam confirmata est super nos
misericordia eius
et veritas Domini manet in aeternum.
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper,
et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
Pater noster... [continue in silence up to:]
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
V. Dispersit, dedit pauperibus.
R. Iustitia eius manet in saeculum saeculi.
V. Benedicam Dominum in omni tempore.
R. Semper laus eius in ore meo.
V. In Domino laudabitur anima mea.
R. Audiant mansueti, et laetentur.
V. Magnificate Dominum mecuм.
R. Et exaltemus nomen eius in idipsum.
V. Sit nomen Domini benedictum.
R. Ex hoc nunc et usque in saeculum.
The Priest: Retribuere, dignare, Domine, omnibus, nobis bona
facientibus propter nomen tuum, vitam aeternam.
R. Amen.
V. Benedicamus Domino.
R. Deo gratias.
V. Fidelium animae per misericordiam Dei requiescant in pace.
R. Amen.
Pater noster... [all in silence]
V. Deus det nobis suam pacem.
R. Amen.
AFTER DINNER
The Priest begins: Do you, Lord, have mercy upon us.
R. Thanks be to God. All rise.
The Priest: May all Thy works confess Thee, Lord.
R. And may Thy saints bless Thee. Glory be to the Father, and to the
Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now, and
ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
The Priest continues: We give Thee thanks, almighty God, for all Thy
benefices: Who livest and reignest for ever and ever. R. Amen.
The following psalm is then said by all:
Praise the Lord, all ye nations,
Praise him, all ye people.
For His mercy hath been confirmed upon us,
and the truth of the Lord remainest forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world
without end. Amen.
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Our Father... [continue in silence up to:]
V. And lead us not into temptation.
R. But deliver us from evil.
V. He distributed and gave to the poor.
R. His justice remainest for ever and ever.
V. I shall bless the Lord at all times.
R. His praise will always be in my mouth.
V. In the Lord my soul will rejoice.
R. Let the meek hear, and let them rejoice.
V. Magnify the Lord with me.
R. And let us exalt His name together.
V. Let the name of the Lord be blessed.
R. From now and forevermore.
The Priest: Deign, o Lord, to reward all of us doing good for Thy name,
with eternal life.
R. Amen.
V. Let us bless the Lord.
R. Thanks be to God.
V. May the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest
in peace.
R. Amen.
Our Father... [all in silence]
V. May God grant us His peace.
R. Amen.
ANTE COENAM
The Priest: Benedicite.
All: Benedicite.
The Priest: Edent pauperes
And all continue: et saturabuntur, et laudabunt Dominum, qui requirunt
eum: vivant corda eorum in saeculum saeculi. Gloria Patri, et Filio,
et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in
saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
Pater noster... [continue in silence up to:]
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
The Priest then says: Benedic, Domine, nos et haec tua dona, quae de
tua largitate sumus sumpturi. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
R. Amen.
Then the Priest says: Iube, Domine, benedicere.
The Priest: Ad caenam vitae aeternae perducat nos Rex aeternae gloriae.
R. Amen.
BEFORE SUPPER
The Priest: May God bless you (thee - if one person).
All: May God bless thee.
The Priest: The poor will eat
And all continue: and will be satisfied, and they will praise the Lord,
who longs for them: let their hearts live for ever and ever. Glory be
to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the
beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
R. Amen.
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Our Father... [continue in silence up to:]
V. And lead us not into temptation.
R. But deliver us from evil.
The Priest then says: Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts, which we
are about to receive from Thy bounty. Through Christ Our Lord.
R. Amen.
Then the Priest says: Bishop, we ask thy blessing.
The Priest: May the King of eternal glory lead us to the meal of
eternal life.
R. Amen.
IN FINE COENAE
The Priest begins: Tu autem, Domine, miserere nobis.
R. Deo gratias. All rise.
The Priest: Memoriam fecit mirabilium suorum, misericors et miserator
Dominus. Escam dedit timentibus se. Gloria Patri et Filio et Spiritui
Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc et semper, et in saecula
saeculorum.
Amen.
The Priest continues: Benedictus Deus in donis suis, et sanctus in
omnibus operibus suis, qui vivat et regnat in saecula saeculorum.
R. Amen.
The following psalm is then said by all:
Laudate Dominum, omnes gentes,
laudate eum, omnes populi.
Quoniam confirmata est super nos
misericordia eius
et veritas Domini manet in aeternum.
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula
saeculorum. Amen.
Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.
Pater noster... [continue in silence up to:]
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
V. Dispersit, dedit pauperibus.
R. Iustitia eius manet in saeculum saeculi.
V. Benedicam Dominum in omni tempore.
R. Semper laus eius in ore meo.
V. In Domino laudabitur anima mea.
R. Audiant mansueti, et laetentur.
V. Magnificate Dominum mecuм.
R. Et exaltemus nomen eius in idipsum.
V. Sit nomen Domini benedictum.
R. Ex hoc nunc et useque in saeculum.
The Priest: Retribuere, dignare, Domine, omnibus, nobis bona
facientibus propter nomen tuum, vitam aeternam.
R. Amen.
V. Benedicamus Domino.
R. Deo gratias.
V. Fidelium animae per misericordiam Dei requiescant in pace.
R. Amen.
Pater noster... [all in silence]
V. Deus det nobis suam pacem.
R. Amen.
And he adds:
V. Tribuat Dominus benefactoribus nostris pro terrenis caelestia, pro
temporalibus sempiterna.
R. Amen.
AT THE END OF SUPPER
The Priest begins: Do Thou, o Lord, have mercy upon us.
R. Thanks be to God. All rise.
The Priest: The merciful and compassionate Lord hast made a remembrance
of his wondrous works. He hath given food to those fearing Him. Glory
be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in
the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
The Priest continues: Blessed is God in His gifts, and holy in all His
works, Who livest and reignest for ever and ever.
R. Amen.
The following psalm is then said by all:
Praise the Lord, all nations,
Praise Him, all peoples.
For His mercy has been confirmed upon us,
and the truth of the Lord remainest forever.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it
was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
Amen.
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.
Our Father... [continue in silence up to:]
V. And lead us not into temptation.
R. But deliver us from evil.
V. He distributed and gave to the poor.
R. His justice remains for ever and ever.
V. I shall bless the Lord at all times.
R. His praise will always be in my mouth.
V. In the Lord my soul will rejoice.
R. Let the meek hear, and let them rejoice.
V. Magnify the Lord with me.
R. And let us exalt His name together.
V. Let the name of the Lord be blessed.
R. From now and for evermore.
The Priest: Deign, Lord, to reward all of us doing good for Thy name
with eternal life.
R. Amen.
V. Let us bless the Lord.
R. Thanks be to God.
V. May the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God rest
in peace.
R. Amen.
Our Father... [all in silence]
V. May God grant us His peace.
R. Amen.
And he adds:
V. May the Lord grant to us, who do good works, heavenly rewards instead
of earthly reward, and eternal rewards instead of temporal rewards.
R. Amen.
Now, certainly these long forms would be too much for family gatherings.
But here are a few ideas that might be helpful.
You can say some select other prayers that are along the same line as grace
before meals, and if you're really daring, you can do them in Latin! I think it's
time that we start using Latin more in our prayers, since the liturgical revolution
has been primarily driven by the abandonment of Latin. It's time to turn that
trend around, don't you think?
This is the Prayer to St. Michael, that you say at the end of prayers after Low
Mass. It is additionally useful since there are several English versions of this
prayer in use, such that when Catholics gather and pray it out loud, there is a
lot of babble going on due to the different styles of translation. If everyone says
it in Latin, however, everyone is in unison, because there is only ONE Latin
version! This prayer should be memorized by all Roman Catholics:
SANCTE MICHAEL ARCHANGELE
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et
insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur:
tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui
ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute, in infernum
detrude. Amen.
This is the Angel of God prayer, "Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God's
love commits me here, ever this day (night) be at my side, to light, to guard, to
rule and guide. Amen." In case you have forgotten, when one prays this prayer
every day, habitually, throughout one's life until death, a plenary indulgence at
the hour of death may be obtained under the normal conditions (which see). This
is an extremely RARE and enormous opportunity, to obtain a plenary indulgence
at the moment when it's most valuable. This Latin prayer should be memorized
by all Roman Catholics. It is extremely easy to do, because it rhymes. I dare you
to read this every day for one week and NOT have it automatically memorized:
ORATIO AD ANGELUM CUSTODEM
Angele Dei, qui custos es mei, me tibi commissum pietate superna hodie
(hac nocte) illumina, custodi, rege et guberna. Amen.
The following prayer contains the source of "RIP" found on tombstones,
"Requiescant in pace" :
ORATIO PRO FIDELIBUS DEFUNCTIS
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Requiescant in pace. Amen.
Now, this one is a much larger project, but consider that it is traditional for all
monks and nuns to recite this prayer in procession to communal meals, in the
refectory. This has been done for many centuries, before Vatican II. Isn't that
the Faith we claim to profess??
PSALMUS 129
(to be said while processing to the refectory)
DE PROFUNDIS clamavi ad te, Domine:
Domine, exaudi vocem meam:
Fiant aures tuae intendentes,
in vocem deprecationis meae.
Si iniquitates observaveris, Domine:
Domine, quis sustinebit?
Quia apud te propitiatio est:
et propter legem tuam sustinui te, Domine.
Sustinuit anima mea in verbo eius:
speravit anima mea in Domino.
A custodia matutina usque ad noctem:
speret Israel in Domino.
Quia apud Dominum misericordia:
et copiosa apud eum redemptio.
Et ipse redimet Israel,
ex omnibus iniquitatibus eius.
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.
Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper,
et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
Finally, there are the prayers used for the Rosary, the Creed, the Pater Noster
and the Ave Maria. These should be memorized by all Roman Catholics:
Symbolum Apostolorum
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae; et in
Iesum Christum, Filium eius unicuм, Dominum nostrum; qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine; passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus; descendit ad inferos; tertia die
resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris
omnipotentis; inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos. Credo in
Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam aeternam. Amen.
Oratio Dominica
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum, adveniat
regnum tuum, fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem
nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie; et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris, et ne nos inducas in
tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
Salutatio Angelica
Ave, Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecuм; benedicta tu in mulieribus, et
benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, mater Dei, ora pro
nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
It is my gut feeling that some kind of medley of Latin and English prayers could
be used for a blessing before meals that would be very edifying and beneficial
for family gatherings. It is going to take some very brave and "proactive" work
for us to reclaim the lost heritage of the Faith of our Fathers. This may be a place
where a great opportunity exists!
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"Bless us, O Lord...etc" is not sufficient? Good heavens, what that needs to be said does this prayer leave unsaid? :mad:
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God is all knowing amd He sees into the heart of everybody. He knows who truly loves Him and who doesn't. The Unpublished Manuscript mentions that a protestant women who died in a shipwreck went straight to Heaven because she made a perfect act of contrition as she died. Jesus said that the publican who prayed in the Temple was justified while the Pharasee was not.
I believe that God is pleased with the prayers of all those who are truly sincere. He may be more pleased with the prayers of some Protestants than He is with mine. I only hope that I do not become an obstacle to anyone's conversion.
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heard a talk awhile back, that God does not hear the prayers of unbeleivers unless it is a prayer of repentance......not sure if heretics are lumped in there......healings? probably...worship, no-Prot worship does and achieves nothing.....God of course, knows the heart of hte individual, but as a rule, Prot worship=Nada.....
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God is all knowing amd He sees into the heart of everybody. He knows who truly loves Him and who doesn't. The Unpublished Manuscript mentions that a protestant women who died in a shipwreck went straight to Heaven because she made a perfect act of contrition as she died. Jesus said that the publican who prayed in the Temple was justified while the Pharasee was not.
I believe that God is pleased with the prayers of all those who are truly sincere. He may be more pleased with the prayers of some Protestants than He is with mine. I only hope that I do not become an obstacle to anyone's conversion.
I do NOT believe a Prot ever goes straight to Heaven, w/o Purgatory first, as they have not received sanctifying graces,etc......likely, said women is in Purgatory, perhaps a long time......and is a exception.....
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"Bless us, O Lord...etc" is not sufficient? Good heavens, what that needs to be said does this prayer leave unsaid? :mad:
perhaps, adding "may the divine assistance......", know a lady that adds that at the end...
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God is all knowing amd He sees into the heart of everybody. He knows who truly loves Him and who doesn't. The Unpublished Manuscript mentions that a protestant women who died in a shipwreck went straight to Heaven because she made a perfect act of contrition as she died. Jesus said that the publican who prayed in the Temple was justified while the Pharasee was not.
I believe that God is pleased with the prayers of all those who are truly sincere. He may be more pleased with the prayers of some Protestants than He is with mine. I only hope that I do not become an obstacle to anyone's conversion.
Your post may express your own feelings, which btw, are generous to a fault. However, it's extremely unlikely that God would be pleased with the prayers of a protestant (unless it was to beg forgiveness for holding to protestant errors) because protestants have reduced Christ to being the object of their emotions and by doing this they have denied Him the rightful role of Christ the King and the views of the protestants toward the Blessed Virgin Mary are so repulsive as to be better left unmentioned here.
Sedevacantists will tell you that this or that pope is a heretic because he has expressed heretical views or even written many books that are heretical in nature (see any of BXVI's writings or the jibberish of JPII) but the sedevacantists don't deny the Papacy (which prots do) and then there's all the other issues (perhaps someone else could make a list). The protestant view on the Bible is nearly idol worship with the whole concept of Sola Scriptura.