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Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 3688 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2022, 10:55:56 PM »
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  • I'm not disputing what you said if this is indeed the Church's teaching, it nevertheless doesn't make sense to me since the prospective spouses could make vows to each other allowing for a pluralistic or polyamorous arrangement, which we are seeing more and more of these days. This has always been widespread in pagan cultures. Up until the last century or so arranged marriages were pretty much the norm, even in Christendom. In these cases it doesn't even seem like the consent of each spouse was a consideration.
    You have moved the goal posts! I understand that we are talking of marriage, not polygamy.
    You seem confused as to what constitutes marriage.

    Marriage is the union of ONE man and ONE woman to remain faithful to each other until one of them departs this world.

    I think your dates are out for arranged marriages in the west, but they have still worked well. Arranged marriage is not forced marriage. Marriage still requires the consent of the proposed spouses.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #16 on: December 03, 2022, 11:14:48 PM »
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  • I haven't found a better resource for understanding the Church's teaching on marriage:

    https://archive.org/details/commentaryonnewc0005bach/page/n10/mode/1up
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #17 on: December 04, 2022, 01:52:07 AM »
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  • The have to be baptized in the Catholic Church to Catholic parents.  If they were baptized by Prots and raised by Prots, their marriages would be valid.

    Taught not only at STAS, but explained to me also by several Catholic priests, including then-Father Sanborn:
    So that last part refers to those who, somehow (how, I don't know) were baptized in the Catholic Church but whose parents were non-Catholics and then raised them from infancy as non-Catholics.

    Actually, now that I think of it, I recall the case of that Jєωιѕн boy raised by Pope Pius IX.  So, a Catholic nurse saw an infant with Jєωιѕн parents who was thought to be dying.  So she baptized the boy.  Yet the boy lived.  Well, the boy was baptized by a Catholic (as a Catholic) but was the child of non-Catholics and raised as a non-Catholic (i.e. as a Jєω).  Had he grown up and married a Jєωess, his marriage would not have been invalid, since, although he was baptized Catholic, his parents were non-Catholics and he would have been raised as a non-Catholic.  As it was, however, Pope Pius IX had other plans.

    This is actually a very interesting story (even if a slight tangent) --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_case

    For a while, the NO made an exception for those who formally renounced the faith, but Ratzinger actually rolled that back in 2009 because it was causing massive confusion.

    So this is a NO Canon Law commentary --
    https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2019/09/26/why-cant-an-ex-catholic-marry-validly-outside-the-church/


    Very good. Thank you for this!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #18 on: December 04, 2022, 08:37:10 AM »
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  • All valid Trinitarian baptisms are "Catholic baptisms".  Someone baptized by non-Catholics (remember, anyone can baptize validly, even an apostate) remains a Catholic until they attain the age of reason, at which time, if they embrace another religion (or no religion at all), they become at least material heretics, granted, through no fault of their own.  

    It seems to me, then, that the Church creates a kind of legal fiction, by which those children are treated in Canon Law as never having been Catholics.  If it's not a legal fiction, then what is it?

    Offline BernardoGui

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #19 on: December 04, 2022, 09:30:59 AM »
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  • I know a couple who got married in a civil ceremony, she was baptized in the NO, he was baptized in a protestant church. 
    Eventually they both became trad Catholics and joined an SSPX church. 
    They were required to each be rebaptized then live as brother and sister for a year while he received instruction in the Catholic Church in order of them to have a formal Catholic ceremony.
    Does that sound right?


    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #20 on: December 04, 2022, 09:32:34 AM »
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  • All valid Trinitarian baptisms are "Catholic baptisms".  Someone baptized by non-Catholics (remember, anyone can baptize validly, even an apostate) remains a Catholic until they attain the age of reason, at which time, if they embrace another religion (or no religion at all), they become at least material heretics, granted, through no fault of their own. 

    It seems to me, then, that the Church creates a kind of legal fiction, by which those children are treated in Canon Law as never having been Catholics.  If it's not a legal fiction, then what is it?

    It’s called obedience. The Church made the law and you are to follow it. The law can not be to your liking, but to use a disparaging term like “legal fiction” is not very edifying to say the least.

    If you noticed, I questioned Ladislaus’ statement when he first posted it. When he showed me the Canon that proved his point, I accepted it without question.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #21 on: December 04, 2022, 10:30:42 AM »
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  • Very good. Thank you for this!

    Mortara case probably deserves a thread of its own.  Very interesting.  That actually contributed to why Napoleon III turned on Pius IX, without whose support it became impossible for the Church to hold onto the papal states.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 10:44:15 AM »
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  • I found this interesting post on another forum. The post has additional information regarding CCL 1917 for marriage.

    https://isidore.co/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

    Baptized in the Catholic Church: This term causes some confusion.  It is not a colloquial expression, but a technical term in canon law.  In principle, it has nothing at all to do with the actual minister or even the place of baptism but with the intent of the person who is seeking baptism (or in the case of infants, the intent of the parents who seek to secure baptism for their child).
     
    Here is Woywod on the term:
     
    Quote
    "The term 'baptized in the Catholic Church' creates some difficulty, especially in cases of baptism administered by lay persons.  In the first place, if the father and mother, or at least one of them, are Catholics and adhere to the Church, the infant baptized at the request of the Catholic party by a non-Catholic doctor or nurse in a case of emergency may still be considered baptized in the Catholic Church, for there is but one baptism, and whether the reception of that baptism means the joining of the Catholic Church or of some non-Catholic denomination depends on the will of the person who has the right and duty to care for the welfare of the infant.  If neither parent adheres to the Catholic Church (i.e., if both are Protestants or apostate Catholics), but one of them consents to have the infant baptized by a Catholic priest, one must know whether some guarantee was given of the Catholic education of the child; if so, the child was by the will of the parent legitimately enrolled in the Catholic Church.  If such guarantee was not given, no Catholic priest or layman had the right to baptized the child, and it was not legitimately enrolled in the Church Church, except in urgent danger of death... The Committee for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code declared on April 29, 1940, that persons born of non-Catholics and baptized in the Catholic Church, but not raised as Catholics, are subject to the impediment of disparity of cult according to Canon 1070 when they marry unbaptized persons" (Woywod p. 713-14).





    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #23 on: December 04, 2022, 10:45:33 AM »
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  • It’s called obedience. The Church made the law and you are to follow it. The law can not be to your liking, but to use a disparaging term like “legal fiction” is not very edifying to say the least.

    If you noticed, I questioned Ladislaus’ statement when he first posted it. When he showed me the Canon that proved his point, I accepted it without question.

    "Legal fiction" is not a disparaging term.  It's a term from common law.  There's nothing disedifying about it.  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction

    Another such legal fiction is treating children from putative marriages, later declared null, as being legitimate.  If the marriage never existed, then of course they are bastards (another term that is merely a neutral statement of fact, viz. a child born out of wedlock, but that has become disparaging in common parlance), but for many reasons, the Church declares them to be considered legitimate.  Aside from the social stigma attaching to bastardy, there could be some secular jurisdictions that would look to the Church, in the case of Catholics anyway, to decide whether a child is legitimate or not.  (And it's never the child's fault.)

    A sanatio in radice is another example of a legal fiction in ecclesiastical law.

    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #24 on: December 04, 2022, 12:59:51 PM »
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  • Mortara case probably deserves a thread of its own.  Very interesting.  That actually contributed to why Napoleon III turned on Pius IX, without whose support it became impossible for the Church to hold onto the papal states.

    The Mortara case is interesting on several different levels. It’s one of the reasons the Jєωs hated Venerable Pius IX (A great man!)
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #25 on: December 04, 2022, 01:02:38 PM »
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  • So, given most baptized Catholics are Novus Ordo, how do they get married by a priest/in the Church? For a large percentage, we're not talking about people who even assist at a Latin Mass (who probably would marry in front of a priest anyway).
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #26 on: December 04, 2022, 02:14:09 PM »
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  • So, given most baptized Catholics are Novus Ordo, how do they get married by a priest/in the Church? For a large percentage, we're not talking about people who even assist at a Latin Mass (who probably would marry in front of a priest anyway).
    Baptisms in the NO are valid, and are regarded as such unless there is some reason to assume the person had the wrong intent and the proper form was not followed.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #27 on: December 04, 2022, 03:34:18 PM »
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  • Baptisms in the NO are valid, and are regarded as such unless there is some reason to assume the person had the wrong intent and the proper form was not followed.
    I don't think I was clear.  Canon Law requires baptized Catholics to get married before a priest.  What happens when a NO baptized Catholic who doesn't attend mass/doesn't practice gets married to a non-Catholic?  What is the chance that such a person would get married before a NO priest?  Even if he/she did, NO priests are doubtful. In the end, are these NO Catholics actually getting married before a priest?  And if not, what's the chance that such a person would get married before a certainly valid priest (outside of the SSPX, R&R or sede chapels)?

    I have to wonder how this canon truly gets fulfilled by most who identify as "Catholic" these days.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #28 on: December 04, 2022, 03:46:13 PM »
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  • I don't think I was clear.  Canon Law requires baptized Catholics to get married before a priest.  What happens when a NO baptized Catholic who doesn't attend mass/doesn't practice gets married to a non-Catholic?  What is the chance that such a person would get married before a NO priest?  Even if he/she did, NO priests are doubtful. In the end, are these NO Catholics actually getting married before a priest?  And if not, what's the chance that such a person would get married before a certainly valid priest (outside of the SSPX, R&R or sede chapels)?

    I have to wonder how this canon truly gets fulfilled by most who identify as "Catholic" these days.
     If you assume that the NO (here shorthand for the post-Vatican II Church) is, indeed, the Catholic Church, and that she has the power of binding and loosing (which, strictly speaking, does not require that the Petrine chair be occupied by a valid Pope), then if a pastor allows a couple to marry, then whether the priest is validly ordained or not, shouldn't matter.  

    I know, it's messy.

    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
    « Reply #29 on: December 04, 2022, 04:10:44 PM »
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  • "Legal fiction" is not a disparaging term.  It's a term from common law.  There's nothing disedifying about it. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction

    Another such legal fiction is treating children from putative marriages, later declared null, as being legitimate.  If the marriage never existed, then of course they are bastards (another term that is merely a neutral statement of fact, viz. a child born out of wedlock, but that has become disparaging in common parlance), but for many reasons, the Church declares them to be considered legitimate.  Aside from the social stigma attaching to bastardy, there could be some secular jurisdictions that would look to the Church, in the case of Catholics anyway, to decide whether a child is legitimate or not.  (And it's never the child's fault.)

    A sanatio in radice is another example of a legal fiction in ecclesiastical law.

    Sorry, I assumed that you meant it in a disparaging way. For the record, this is from the source you cited:

    The term legal fiction is sometimes used in a pejorative way. Jeremy Bentham was a famous historical critic of legal fictions.[3][4] Proponents of legal fictions, particularly their use historically (for example, before DNA evidence could give every child the ability to have both genetic parents determined), identify legal fictions as "scaffolding around a building under construction".[5]


    I’m always very hesitant in questioning the wisdom of the Church and Her laws. Actually, when I question it, it’s only because I want to understand Her reasoning behind it.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?