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Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 9537 times)

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2022, 09:08:34 PM »
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to look for loopholes in Church law. Just trying to understand what constitutes a valid marriage outside the realm of Catholicism.
How could a Mormon marriage, or one conducted by a witchdoctor, or lesbian Episcopalian, or Elvis impersonator be valid in any way?
Were any of Elizabeth Taylor's marriages valid?
Again, the ministers of marriage are the couple themselves, however to be legal the contract must be have witnesses.

A mormon marriage would be valid, as long as the spouses were not committed to a previous marriage and they intended to stay married to each other till one spouse dies.

I haven’t followed Taylor’s saga, but I would assume that only her first marriage would be valid, as long as her first spouse was free to marry her. There are no special laws for actors.

The witch doctor and the Elvis impersonator would not make any difference to the validity of a natural marriage provided the conditions were right as far as the intentions of the prospective spouses were concerned. After all, the ministers of marriage are the couple themselves.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2022, 10:22:01 PM »
I question this. It would stand to reason that if this were true then all validly baptized Protestants who contracted a marriage would necessarily be in an invalid marriage. Can you quote the Canon that supports this ?

The have to be baptized in the Catholic Church to Catholic parents.  If they were baptized by Prots and raised by Prots, their marriages would be valid.

Taught not only at STAS, but explained to me also by several Catholic priests, including then-Father Sanborn:
Quote
Canon 1070

§ 1. That marriage is null that is contracted between a non-baptized person and a person baptized in the Catholic Church or converted to her from heresy or schism.

Canon 1094

Only those marriages are valid that are contracted in the presence of the pastor, or the local Ordinary, or a priest delegated by either, and two witnesses, according to the rules expressed in the canons that follow, with due regard for the exceptions mentioned in Canons 1098 and 1099.

Canon 1099

§ 1. [The following] are bound to observe the above-stated form:

1. ° All those baptized into the Catholic Church or converted to her from heresy or schism, even if these or the others have left her later, as long as they enter marriage among themselves;

2. With due regard for the prescription of § 1, n. 1, non-Catholics, whether baptized or non-baptized, if they contract among themselves, are not in any way bound to observe the Catholic form of marriage; likewise, those born of non-Catholics, even if they are baptized in the Church, [but] who from infancy grow up in heresy or schism or infidelity or without any religion, as often as they contract marriage with a non-Catholic.

So that last part refers to those who, somehow (how, I don't know) were baptized in the Catholic Church but whose parents were non-Catholics and then raised them from infancy as non-Catholics.

Actually, now that I think of it, I recall the case of that Jєωιѕн boy raised by Pope Pius IX.  So, a Catholic nurse saw an infant with Jєωιѕн parents who was thought to be dying.  So she baptized the boy.  Yet the boy lived.  Well, the boy was baptized by a Catholic (as a Catholic) but was the child of non-Catholics and raised as a non-Catholic (i.e. as a Jew).  Had he grown up and married a Jewess, his marriage would not have been invalid, since, although he was baptized Catholic, his parents were non-Catholics and he would have been raised as a non-Catholic.  As it was, however, Pope Pius IX had other plans.

This is actually a very interesting story (even if a slight tangent) --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_case

For a while, the NO made an exception for those who formally renounced the faith, but Ratzinger actually rolled that back in 2009 because it was causing massive confusion.

So this is a NO Canon Law commentary --
https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2019/09/26/why-cant-an-ex-catholic-marry-validly-outside-the-church/
Quote
Effectively this means that the Church now holds everyone who was baptized a Catholic, or received into the Catholic Church after baptism in another Christian denomination, must marry in accord with canonical form (or be dispensed from this requirement in advance ...), or else the wedding is invalid.



Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2022, 10:29:03 PM »
Again, the ministers of marriage are the couple themselves, however to be legal the contract must be have witnesses.

A mormon marriage would be valid, as long as the spouses were not committed to a previous marriage and they intended to stay married to each other till one spouse dies.

I haven’t followed Taylor’s saga, but I would assume that only her first marriage would be valid, as long as her first spouse was free to marry her. There are no special laws for actors.

The witch doctor and the Elvis impersonator would not make any difference to the validity of a natural marriage provided the conditions were right as far as the intentions of the prospective spouses were concerned. After all, the ministers of marriage are the couple themselves.
I'm not disputing what you said if this is indeed the Church's teaching, it nevertheless doesn't make sense to me since the prospective spouses could make vows to each other allowing for a pluralistic or polyamorous arrangement, which we are seeing more and more of these days. This has always been widespread in pagan cultures. Up until the last century or so arranged marriages were pretty much the norm, even in Christendom. In these cases it doesn't even seem like the consent of each spouse was a consideration. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2022, 10:37:17 PM »
So the only conditions under which someone who was baptized in the Catholic Church could validly contract marriage without the prescribed form (priest officiating, two witnesses, etc. etc.) --

Both of the child's parents were non-Catholics and the child was raised a non-Catholic from infancy (such as in Mortara case).

Cases where this would not apply --

1) Child is baptized Catholic to one or more Catholic parents, but the parents decide to raise him as a pagan (let him decide what he wants to believe later, for example).
2) Child is baptized Catholc to one or more Catholic parents who apostasize after the child hits the age of reason and then continue raising him non-Catholic.
3) Child is baptized Catholic to two non-Catholic parents, but they decide to raise him as a Catholic.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2022, 10:44:07 PM »
I'm not disputing what you said if this is indeed the Church's teaching, it nevertheless doesn't make sense to me since the prospective spouses could make vows to each other allowing for a pluralistic or polyamorous arrangement, which we are seeing more and more of these days. This has always been widespread in pagan cultures. Up until the last century or so arranged marriages were pretty much the norm, even in Christendom. In these cases it doesn't even seem like the consent of each spouse was a consideration.

That's an entirely separate question.  Basically the couple have to at least know that marriage consists of a permanent relationship for the procreation of children, and freely intend to enter it anyway.  This is presumed unless prove otherwise, and the standard of proof for this is extremely high.  Notice, they have to know that marriage is intended to be permanent and for the procreation of children.  It doesn't matter that they might not INTEND to have it be permanent.  If they have this idea of marriage that it's just a romantic ceremony and a temporary arrangement just for legal/tax purposes or to have a ceremony that merely symbolizes their fornication, that would render it invalid ... though again it would have to be proven without a shadow of a doubt.