Author Topic: Are all the single Trad women feminist? (Read 7480 times)

Matthew · « **on:** October 22, 2013, 08:51:37 AM »

Short answer: no.

I thought I'd offer another point of view on this perennial topic.

I think I'm qualified to speak on the matter, since I was once in the position of these young men. I was single for the first NINE YEARS of my adult life. But now I have 4 daughters, so I'm inclined to be a bit more objective about the whole picture.

The guys complain how all the women are feminist, busy with careers, college, etc. but are they all 100% ready for marriage themselves?

Maybe the women are biding their time while the young men grow up -- which, in 2013, seems to take longer than the historical average.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? That's open for debate.

So for all the guys --

You see Theresa Trad at your chapel, but she's busy going to college, etc.?

First you must ask yourself: are YOU ready to get married? Do you have a promising career, or at least a job? Do you have a place to move in to, in the best-case scenario that she fell in love with you and you wanted to get married? Can you afford an apartment or a house? The best way to prove that is to already have one :)

How can you rant about how women bide their time, if you yourself are not ready for marriage?

It's a sad fact of life that many American young men are immature. They play video games and watch movies, and their childhood is measured in decades.

How is a young lady to discern the good guys from the bad? Even if it's true that it's "Catholic" to stay home for a while after Graduation, it's also equally true that Momma's Boys DO exist, as well as loafers, layabouts, and bums. A young lady would do well to make sure she doesn't end up with one of those.

How is she supposed to discern? That's why I say the proof of the pudding is in the eating -- if the man is objectively established (place to live and a job), she can be morally certain he's not a bum.

If he's still living at home -- she has to sort through her feelings to figure out if she's just fallen in love with a nice pauper (the classic "love is all we need"), or if he's just being frugal. Let's just say there's a good chance of getting it wrong.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:02:30 AM »

And no you can't play the "ideals" card and rant on about how Catholics lived in ages past. You are an American living in the 21st century. Your family doesn't have an estate. They can't put you & your wife up on a little cottage on the family farm.

American homes aren't designed for multi-generational use. The average 2,000 sf home is not even adequate for raising ONE Catholic-sized family -- nevermind 2 or 3.

Even though 2,000 sf sounds like a lot -- remember where all that space goes. Again, I speak from experience here. I know that modern homes are designed for families of 4 with very different needs ("entertaining" people, a built-in speaker system, a formal dining room, etc.) than a Catholic family.

We have one of those 2,000 sf homes. The living room is probably 1/3 of our house! We can't exactly put up bunks in the living room. Could you imagine putting up your son & daughter-in-law right there in the middle of the living room? Hope you don't want any grandkids! hahaha

We have 1 master bedroom, 2 small bedrooms (12 x 12) and 1 "game room" which is like a bedroom without a door or a closet. I use it for my office (I work from home 100%) With only 5 children, we already had to build a garage to store anything that will handle temperature extremes, so our house can have a bit more breathing room.

Sorry, but my kids won't be starting families in this house. We simply don't have room. The whole house, from stem to stern, isn't designed to offer privacy for more than 1 couple. We're probably going to need a new septic system in a couple years as it is -- they design everything for a family of 4 or 5.

Just for starters, the modern "open floor plan" is inimical to privacy.

Then there's the issue of culture. It's not in my culture -- I was never taught -- how to live in a multi-generational home. It takes a lot of knowledge, skill and prudence. Human nature presents quite a few challenges to several grown-up, independent adults living under one roof.

I don't know about Catholic Europe and/or in the middle ages, but I do know the present day. In-laws are BAD NEWS when it comes to interference in a marriage. I was taught this in the "Catholic Marriage Manual", and I believe it. I don't have any problem with my own in-laws -- probably because they don't live with us :)

But how can a person not interfere, when he LIVES with the couple? If "fish and house guests start to stink after 3 days", where does that leave your daughter-in-law? Can you correct her like your daughter, or do you have to endure her faults for your son's sake? What if your daughter in law wants to be in charge of her domestic sphere, which is in her nature to do?

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:29:29 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

American homes aren't designed for multi-generational use. The average 2,000 sf home is not even adequate for raising ONE Catholic-sized family -- nevermind 2 or 3.

Not true anymore. Check out these homes they're building down the street from me, literally.

http://theopendoor.lennar.com/news/chino-california-lennars-next-gen-the-home-within-a-home-is-grand-opening-at-charleston-at-college-park-on-saturday-december-10th/

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:40:39 AM »

1. Virtually all homes built up till now are single-family homes. Seriously, what % of homes in existence today use this floorplan, or one similar to it?

Quote

Lennar is bringing a revolutionary new concept to Chino. One of the newest trends in the housing industry is now coming to Lennar’s Charleston at College Park on December 10th and will soon be coming to many more Lennar communities in the area – the comeback of multi-generational living. Extended family who live together has made a major resurgence to American living and Lennar is beyond excited to be the only homebuilder to build this “never before seen” floorplan. This new trend of multi-generational living has encouraged Lennar to design a home that allows extended family to live all together in one home – except with separate living spaces and separate front door entrances. On Saturday, December 10th, Lennar’s NEXT GEN – “The Home Within a Home” floorplan at Charleston is officially being unveiled to the public...

2. The floorplan isn't cheap. So if one's parents are rich and can afford a $600,000 home, the son(s) don't have to move out. Gotcha! :)

Anna Maria · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2013, 10:41:23 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

First you must ask yourself: are YOU ready to get married? Do you have a promising career, or at least a job? Do you have a place to move in to, in the best-case scenario that she fell in love with you and you wanted to get married? Can you afford an apartment or a house? The best way to prove that is to already have one :)

Finances are the least important (although perhaps a necessity). Having a promising career, job, house or apartment is hardly proof of being ready for marriage. What about living a virtuous life? Does the man love God and put Him first above all things? Is he living in a state of grace? Is doing the will of God and making the salvation of his soul his number 1 priority? Does he accept the sedevacantist position which is the correct Catholic position? These first, and they are a must.

To answer the question of the OP, are all single Trad women feminist? No, but neither do they all have the desire to marry.

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2013, 10:56:24 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

2. The floorplan isn't cheap. So if one's parents are rich and can afford a $600,000 home, the son(s) don't have to move out. Gotcha! :)

lol- Touche! :)

(BTW- I just thought they were interesting)

Zeitun · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:16:32 AM »

Great topic Matthew.

My oldest son isn't 18 yet but he's already planning ahead to prepare himself to be "marriage ready". He knows he can't even court a girl until he has a home ready for her because courtship isn't going to last longer than a year. He knows he has to earn income to support 2 adults and the cost of an infant within the first year of marriage. He also knows he needs to get out on his own as soon as he graduates high school. He's still on the fence about college and understands college will delay marriage, which I'm not certain he will want to do.

We often discuss criteria for a good wife so that he's not disillusioned about marriage. He knows that the goal isn't to marry the "hottest girl who will have him" that others seem to cling to. Luckily, all the Resistance girls are naturally pretty. He also has an idea which temperament will complement him the best so he knows which ones to avoid. Finally, he understands that he will court the parents of the young lady as much as her.

I appreciate your practical suggestions on topics of marriage and family life. And you are spot on when it comes to modern housing design.

John Grace · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:33:04 PM »

I agree that it is a great topic.

Frances · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2013, 06:59:26 PM »

:dancing-banana:
No! I'm not a feminist, although I'm 53, single, never married, and have supported myself and lived away from my parents since graduating from high school. Many assume I'm a feminist because of my life-situation. So, please define feminist and I can better answer the OP.
Houses are not designed for large, much less multi-generational families. Same problem with vehicles and suburbia, where most Americans live.
It CAN be done, however, if all of the parties are "on board" to make many sacrifices. In NYC I know of three large families with 12, 13, and 15 children. The first family is very wealthy and have a huge house in Jamaica Estates, Queens. The second is super-crowded onto the second floor above the "church" where the father and grandfather are Baptist ministers. Dad built military-style four-tier bunk beds onto opposite walls and put a double-sided bookcase between them as a partition, forming boys' and girls' dormitories. Mom, Dad and baby sleep on the living-area futon that folds into a couch. They eat in shifts. The ladies use the upstairs bathroom and the men use the bathroom of the basement of the church where Grandpa and Grandma have a small apartment. If the authorities found out, they'd be in violation of occupancy, health and safety rules. The family with 15 jointly owns an entire four-story walk-up tenement building. Grandma, Grandpa and older unmarried uncle who is slightly mentally impaired live on the first floor. The big family occupies the second and third floors. The fourth floor is divided into three apartments. An uncle and his wife and baby live in the largest, a single aunt lives in the smallest, and the middle sized is occupied by three cousins of the mother's who are all attending various colleges. The basement is used for laundry, food storage, and a play room. They have a tiny fenced-in backyard with a garage just big enough for the 15 passenger van, and where they have a small, terraced vegetable garden, and a coop for six chickens. Ten of the adults and older teens work to pay the bills, but none of the women with young children. BTW, none of these families are Catholic!

Graham · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:06:42 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Short answer: no.

I thought I'd offer another point of view on this perennial topic.

...

The guys complain how all the women are feminist, busy with careers, college, etc. but are they all 100% ready for marriage themselves?

Maybe the women are biding their time while the young men grow up...
[/b]

I talk to young, single SSPX women. Quite a bit. Do you?

Many of them want to travel the world (even alone), work in big business, get advanced degrees, and so on. When they tell me that 18 is too young to get married, they don't mean because similar aged men aren't earning enough! After all, even if that's true, they could always marry an older man. No, they mean they want 6-8 more years of "adventure" and "maturity", they want to "experience the world", before they settle down. They want independence. And once they've had it, the majority will never really give it up, even after the traditional wedding with the house-owning suckers who've been waiting for them. Should they expect that their university-educated, workplace experienced, well-traveled wifes will now 180 into submissive home-makers? You tell me.

"Biding their time for men to grow up" is, I will say is very obviously, an after-the-fact rationalization and whitewashing of trad girls' cascade into the ways of worldly women.

Are all young trad women this way? Not at all; I would say these remarks apply to two thirds of the traditional girls I've spoken to enough to get a sense of them. Needless to say, they don't apply to any young women who are marrying in their mid-twenties or later for reasons beyond their control, possibly because of conversion, possibly because of a lack of real options, or for other reasons.

Zeitun · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:21:13 PM »

Quote from: Graham

I talk to young, single SSPX women. Quite a bit. Do you?

Many of them want to travel the world (even alone), work in big business, get advanced degrees, and so on. When they tell me that 18 is too young to get married, they don't mean because similar aged men aren't earning enough! After all, even if that's true, they could always marry an older man. No, they mean they want 6-8 more years of "adventure" and "maturity", they want to "experience the world", before they settle down. They want independence. And once they've had it, the majority will never really give it up, even after the traditional wedding with the house-owning suckers who've been waiting for them. Should they expect that their university-educated, workplace experienced, well-traveled wifes will now 180 into submissive home-makers? You tell me.

"Biding their time for men to grow up" is, I will say is very obviously, an after-the-fact rationalization and whitewashing of trad girls' cascade into the ways of worldly women.

Are all young trad women this way? Not at all; I would say these remarks apply to two thirds of the traditional girls I've spoken to enough to get a sense of them. Needless to say, they don't apply to any young women who are marrying in their mid-twenties or later for reasons beyond their control, possibly because of conversion, possibly because of a lack of real options, or for other reasons.

I accidently discovered the "SSPXSingles" website yesterday while Googling the SSPX. I was able to browse the members without joining.

Graham is absolutely correct about SSPX ladies wanting to travel and go on adventures. I specifically looked at the profiles of those who identified as "SSPX" and only a small handful specifically stated that they were seeking a husband and most were using profile photos displaying immodest clothing and heavy makeup. I was kinda surprised that marriage was not their first priority but rather "meeting people" which sounds pretty worldly.

I'm sure if the SSPX knew their name was attached to this website Krah would send a letter to the owner.

Jaynek · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2013, 01:15:20 PM »

My youngest daughter, though not a trad, at 16 says her goal is to marry and have children. She is very clear that is her first choice. She is making education choices with the goal of being able to support herself if she cannot marry or she is widowed. She is also thinking of job skills in terms of whether they are suitable as a part-time job for a married woman.

And she understands that the husband is the head of the family. It is not only that she sees me defer to my husband, but also because I have talked to her about it. So she knows the reasoning behind it.

Matthew · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2013, 02:51:16 PM »

Quote from: Graham

Quote from: Matthew
Short answer: no.

I thought I'd offer another point of view on this perennial topic.

...

The guys complain how all the women are feminist, busy with careers, college, etc. but are they all 100% ready for marriage themselves?

Maybe the women are biding their time while the young men grow up...
[/b]

I talk to young, single SSPX women. Quite a bit. Do you?

Many of them want to travel the world (even alone), work in big business, get advanced degrees, and so on. When they tell me that 18 is too young to get married, they don't mean because similar aged men aren't earning enough! After all, even if that's true, they could always marry an older man. No, they mean they want 6-8 more years of "adventure" and "maturity", they want to "experience the world", before they settle down. They want independence. And once they've had it, the majority will never really give it up, even after the traditional wedding with the house-owning suckers who've been waiting for them. Should they expect that their university-educated, workplace experienced, well-traveled wifes will now 180 into submissive home-makers? You tell me.

"Biding their time for men to grow up" is, I will say is very obviously, an after-the-fact rationalization and whitewashing of trad girls' cascade into the ways of worldly women.

Are all young trad women this way? Not at all; I would say these remarks apply to two thirds of the traditional girls I've spoken to enough to get a sense of them. Needless to say, they don't apply to any young women who are marrying in their mid-twenties or later for reasons beyond their control, possibly because of conversion, possibly because of a lack of real options, or for other reasons.

1. The thread specifically mentioned "Trad" women, not "SSPX" women. There is a difference. Maybe the SSPX women you've talked to have become as worldly (or worse) than Indult-goers?

2. I have often said that attendance at a Tridentine Mass on Sunday -- at the SSPX or anywhere else -- doesn't effect much of a fundamental change on anyone. We're all still members of the modern world, 2013. We are still vulnerable to all the worldly influences, including liberalism, feminism, high risk of divorce, infidelity, etc. Human nature isn't squashed into nothing just because of where we spend 1 hour every Sunday morning.

3. I realize that some are too worldly, etc. and I experienced that myself when I was still dating. (My memory is pretty good; it was only 2003 that I was totally single, and as recently as the beginning of 2005 I was still technically single.) But my point in starting the thread is that it goes both ways. Some women are worldly or feminist, yes, but some guys are indeed truly immature and/or not prepared for marriage -- the latter of which might not be their fault, per se, but it's still a very real condition that the women must deal with.

Immaculata001 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2013, 03:04:51 PM »

I think a lot of Catholic men aren't aware of the predicament a lot of Catholic women are in, mostly because it's not really possible to befriend one another or speak to one another to understand each others situations.

Yes, men are treated like an instant paycheck and it's very disturbing to be discarded when one doesn't measure up; however, we women are facing an even heavier burden.

I'd say that with secular and Novus Ordo dating almost all men are looking to take advantage of women. I don't believe it's an exaggeration in the slightest. They don't see it as taking advantage of women, but they have no problems at all with fornicating, and many not even be interested in a relationship at all, let alone a lifelong marriage with lots of kids. Also, we've all heard stories of men who are not sane and who even rape or kill women. It's not good to be paranoid, but women have to take that into consideration if we've got any sense.

What further complicates the matter is that a Catholic father would have to be prepared to provide for a large family which is becoming extremely difficult for certain social classes. It's also difficult to meet traditionalist men who meet all the previous criteria. One should also consider that some of us are ethnic minorities or racially mixed and have an even smaller pool to choose from...

That being said, the odds are heavily against us and because observant Catholic women tend to be more naive than others, we are extremely vulnerable to men and their bad intentions.

A lot of us decide that it's not a good idea to risk anything at all in dating, and it often seems like a better idea to just accept God's will for one's life and even make the best out of a situation.

As it concerns education, we're often put in positions where we have to find ways of supporting ourselves when our families just can't. I don't like to make personal disclosures, but although I live with my own family (which is very common for unmarried Latin American women) they can't afford to care for all of my needs like healthcare, a car, other insurance, or even groceries, etc. It was obvious that I had to learn a trade or profession where I could support myself even if I would have like to have been married. Travelling and learning languages makes one more marketable in certain professions and can actually be a wholesome pursuit...

Catholic women being single has as much to do with all traditional social structures falling apart and with avoiding sin and immorality as anything else. I really don't believe it's that we just love being alone in the world and have no children, etc -- it's actually a cross.

Jaynek · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »

Quote from: Immaculata001

I think a lot of Catholic men aren't aware of the predicament a lot of Catholic women are in, mostly because it's not really possible to befriend one another or speak to one another to understand each others situations.

Yes, men are treated like an instant paycheck and it's very disturbing to be discarded when one doesn't measure up; however, we women are facing an even heavier burden.

I wouldn't say that it is worse for women than men. Both are facing extremely difficult situations.

My children range in age from 32 to 12 and I am getting a sense of the challenges facing young people from seeing what my children face. This society is so terrible for both men and women that I couldn't say who has it worse.