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Author Topic: Approbations of the Mystical City of God  (Read 725 times)

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Offline AMDGJMJ

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Approbations of the Mystical City of God
« on: October 06, 2022, 10:01:30 PM »
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  • Approbations from the Introduction to the Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Agreda:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #1 on: October 06, 2022, 10:03:30 PM »
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  • Second Half:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #2 on: October 07, 2022, 04:36:02 AM »
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  • I've read the whole Venerable Mary of Agreda's Mystical City of God and highly recommend everyone undertake the task and read it, but it should be noted that regardless of all the approbations, some things in her works are worthy of question. Here is one thing she says that is actually wrong, that the soul is not created until 40-80 days after conception:

    Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281

    "281.....the demons, with their vast experience, judge as much as possible of the complexion or inclinations of the one conceived and they are wont to lay out great plans for future action. If they fear good results, they seek to hinder as much as possible the last generation or infusion of the soul, waylaying the mother with dangers or temptations to bring about an abortion before the creation of the soul, which is ordinarily delayed forty or eighty days. 

    But as soon as they see God create or infuse the soul, the wrath of these dragons exerts itself in furious activity to prevent the creature from issuing to light, and from attaining Baptism, if it is to be born where this Sacrament can easily be administered. For this purpose they suggest and tempt the mothers to many disorders and excesses,  whereby the parturition is forced and a premature birth or the death of the child in the womb might be caused; for among Catholics and heretics, who still administer Baptism, the demons content themselves with depriving children of Baptism and thus withholding them in limbo from the vision of God. Among pagans and idolaters they are not so solicitous, because among them damnation is in certain prospect."

     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #3 on: October 07, 2022, 06:23:46 AM »
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  • I've read the whole Venerable Mary of Agreda's Mystical City of God and highly recommend everyone undertake the task and read it, but it should be noted that regardless of all the approbations, some things in her works are worthy of question. Here is one thing she says that is actually wrong, that the soul is not created until 40-80 days after conception:

    Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281

    "281.....the demons, with their vast experience, judge as much as possible of the complexion or inclinations of the one conceived and they are wont to lay out great plans for future action. If they fear good results, they seek to hinder as much as possible the last generation or infusion of the soul, waylaying the mother with dangers or temptations to bring about an abortion before the creation of the soul, which is ordinarily delayed forty or eighty days. 

    But as soon as they see God create or infuse the soul, the wrath of these dragons exerts itself in furious activity to prevent the creature from issuing to light, and from attaining Baptism, if it is to be born where this Sacrament can easily be administered. For this purpose they suggest and tempt the mothers to many disorders and excesses,  whereby the parturition is forced and a premature birth or the death of the child in the womb might be caused; for among Catholics and heretics, who still administer Baptism, the demons content themselves with depriving children of Baptism and thus withholding them in limbo from the vision of God. Among pagans and idolaters they are not so solicitous, because among them damnation is in certain prospect."

     
    It has been awhile since I have read all of the books.  It is interesting that the book supports more of the "quickening" idea of the soul.  At least that was not heretical at the time it was published.  Sort of like Saint Thomas and Saint Augustine who also supported the same idea from what I understand.  😅

    *****

    "Through the Latin translations of Averroes's (1126–1198) work, beginning in the 12th century, the legacy of Aristotle was recovered in the West. Christian philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas (1224–1274) adapted largely to his views[1][5][24][25][26] and because they believed that the early embryo did not have a human soul, they did not necessarily see early abortion as murder, although they condemned it nonetheless.[5][21][19][20]: 150  Aquinas, in his main work, the Summa Theologica, states (Part I, question 118, article 2 ad 2)"…that the intellectual soul is created by God at the end of human generation".[27] Although Jesus may have been exceptional, Aquinas did believe that the embryo first possessed a vegetative soul, later acquired sensitive (animal) soul, and after 40 days of development, God gave humans a rational soul.[28]

    In 1588, Pope Sixtus V issued the Bull Effraenatam, which subjected those that carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with automatic excommunication and the punishment by civil authorities applied to murderers. Three years later after finding that the results had not been as positive as was hoped, his successor Pope Gregory XIV limited the excommunication to abortion of a formed fœtus.[15]: 71–72 [29][30]" (From Wikipedia"Ensoulment")


    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #4 on: October 07, 2022, 10:40:37 AM »
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  • I could be wrong, but I am of the understanding that although the Church treats life from the moment of conception as sacred, at the same time it has never made a formal condemnation of the Angelic Doctor's views regarding ensoulment nor to this day, nor has it ever condemned  Venerable Maria de Agreda's work in this regard or any other regard.  (If complete human ensoulment does take place at the moment of conception one is left to wonder at the "zillions" of embryos that are not purposely aborted, but nevertheless die within the first two months of conception.)


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #5 on: October 07, 2022, 11:04:06 AM »
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  • I could be wrong, but I am of the understanding that although the Church treats life from the moment of conception as sacred, at the same time it has never made a formal condemnation of the Angelic Doctor's views regarding ensoulment nor to this day, nor has it ever condemned  Venerable Maria de Agreda's work in this regard or any other regard.  (If complete human ensoulment does take place at the moment of conception one is left to wonder at the "zillions" of embryos that are not purposely aborted, but nevertheless die within the first two months of conception.)
    I wondered about this before too, but I think the Church won't explicitly condemn such things unless the wrong belief is or becomes the popular belief and is wide spread, and even then, She would only say what is true, and would do so without condemning the saints, as was the case with the Immaculate Conception. 

    I think it has always been the practice that when She condemns the idea, She condemns the author along with it, but since St. Thomas was only mistaken, She just said what the truth of the matter is. Ven Mary of Agreda is still perfectly incorrupt after 357 years so it's not too surprising that the Church didn't condemned her works.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #6 on: October 07, 2022, 11:26:27 AM »
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  • I could be wrong, but I am of the understanding that although the Church treats life from the moment of conception as sacred, at the same time it has never made a formal condemnation of the Angelic Doctor's views regarding ensoulment nor to this day, nor has it ever condemned  Venerable Maria de Agreda's work in this regard or any other regard.  (If complete human ensoulment does take place at the moment of conception one is left to wonder at the "zillions" of embryos that are not purposely aborted, but nevertheless die within the first two months of conception.)
    I have wondered the same thing about embryos. Additionally it is true that the Church has never said anything about when conception takes place. So it is certainly a grey area in the order of nature. But it doesn't necessarily undo the moral problems of contracepting an embryo even if ensoulment did occur later.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #7 on: October 07, 2022, 12:00:30 PM »
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  • I have wondered the same thing about embryos. Additionally it is true that the Church has never said anything about when conception takes place. So it is certainly a grey area in the order of nature. But it doesn't necessarily undo the moral problems of contracepting an embryo even if ensoulment did occur later.
    Very well stated!  Thank you!


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #8 on: October 07, 2022, 12:23:22 PM »
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  • I could be wrong, but I am of the understanding that although the Church treats life from the moment of conception as sacred, at the same time it has never made a formal condemnation of the Angelic Doctor's views regarding ensoulment nor to this day, nor has it ever condemned  Venerable Maria de Agreda's work in this regard or any other regard.  (If complete human ensoulment does take place at the moment of conception one is left to wonder at the "zillions" of embryos that are not purposely aborted, but nevertheless die within the first two months of conception.)
    I think that you have hit it on the nail here with what I was trying to express.  😅
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #9 on: October 07, 2022, 08:42:04 PM »
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  • The Annunciation, does that not tell us when conception takes place, sure. There is no grey area.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Approbations of the Mystical City of God
    « Reply #10 on: October 07, 2022, 08:56:25 PM »
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  • The Annunciation, does that not tell us when conception takes place, sure. There is no grey area.
    It does not tell us when ensoulment takes place (I mistakenly wrote conception), which was the point being addressed. Hence why St. Thomas and Ven. Maria Agreda both wrote that it takes place 30-40 days after conception, yet the Church has officially said nothing about this, which is why it is an area of speculation (a grey area) theologically. I disagree with both and believe, like most today, that ensoulment is simultaneous with conception on the principle that the essence (soul) provides the form for the body. So, to say that the body begins to form without first having the imprint of the soul is ridiculous.

    Morally, even if ensoulment occurs at a delay as St. Thomas taught, contracepting any pregnancy is still a grave evil as it seeks to prevent a human life from ever forming.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]