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Author Topic: Are poor people forced into cremation?  (Read 994 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Are poor people forced into cremation?
« on: April 13, 2023, 10:41:03 AM »
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  • I know of some families who were very poor, didn't have life insurance, and had $9K funeral expenses. And no, nothing was extravagant. Just your average funeral. Funerals are simply overpriced.

    Are cremations really cheaper than a regular cheap funeral in a pine box casket? Isn't there a cheaper BURIAL option, with no "funeral home" rental and all that? That's messed up.

    Cremations take a ton of fuel to burn up a human body. That's gotta cost too.
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    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #2 on: April 13, 2023, 11:25:50 AM »
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  • I wonder if there's cheaper burial option too, so many people die every single day and I don't really know how is it going to be possible if everyone needs a burial (most likely in a cemetery?) and how to afford it. Also I've been wondering does it go against church teaching to dig people out and turn the cemetery into something for other purposes (build houses, business, subways, etc.)? Because our society had been doing that and it made me rethink what's the purpose of a proper burial when you have no control about if your body will decompose and may get dug out after perhaps 100 years. And no, I'm not for cremation, I'm just asking questions.
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    Offline Marie Teresa

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #3 on: April 13, 2023, 11:46:57 AM »
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  • I know of some families who were very poor, didn't have life insurance, and had $9K funeral expenses. And no, nothing was extravagant. Just your average funeral. Funerals are simply overpriced.

    Are cremations really cheaper than a regular cheap funeral in a pine box casket? Isn't there a cheaper BURIAL option, with no "funeral home" rental and all that? That's messed up.

    Cremations take a ton of fuel to burn up a human body. That's gotta cost too.

    I find this a very interesting question.  Because I know people, even "devout Novus Ordo" people, who think that cremation is fine, and no doubt assume it is less expensive.  But it brings up more questions, to me.

    Is that difference in price all just the difference between burn the body vs. bury it?  If so, what are they doing with the ashes?  I guess, if you just burn the body & scatter the ashes in the air, with no funeral service, no viewing, etc., then likely it is cheaper.  But is that what pro-cremation people are all doing?  [I imagine some do.]  Don't they have funerals anymore?  Much of the cost of funerals is the accuмulation of costs:  viewing, funeral, burial, casket, headstone, etc.  Do people no longer have burial sites for a loved one?  No headstone or grave marker?  What is the current Novus Ordo law regarding disposition of ashes, even if they do allow for cremation?  I thought you still had to bury them.  :confused:

    Quote
    The national median cost of cremation with funeral and viewing in 2021 was ... $6,970 (with cremation casket and urn), which is about $2,500 less than a typical burial funeral.


    Quote
    A traditional cemetery burial is often preceded by a funeral or followed by a memorial. Families who choose cremation also often choose not to have a funeral or memorial service, or they choose a simpler, smaller or more casual option. Savings: about $500.


    Quote
    Traditional funerals are often preceded by a visitation or viewing, which families who choose cremation often skip. That saves on the funeral director's time and costs to embalm the loved one, hair and makeup, facility and staffing fees, and more. Savings: about $1,125.

    From a quick look at some sites, it looks like it might be cheaper to embalm the body than cremate.  The huge difference in cost of funerals is only if you don't bother with traditional funeral elements like viewing, funeral ceremonies, burial site, headstone/marker etc. 



    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #4 on: April 13, 2023, 12:20:15 PM »
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  • What I heard -- and believe --

    It is not economical to do individual cremations. The cost to build up and maintain a fire enough to incinerate a human body is HIGHER than the price they can charge for cremation. So they do several at once, and divvy up the ashes to give to the families.

    BTW the bones don't incinerate per se, so those are crushed at the end. That's what you get back as "ashes".

    BTW incinerate is a nice high end word, so of course it's Latin. It basically means INTO ASHES. So when something is incinerated, it is turned into ashes.

    Despite some very widely spread lies *cough* h0Ɩ0h0αx *cough*, human bodies are NOT fuel, and do NOT help you "part of the way" in burning up. They take lots of fuel EVERY STEP OF THE WAY to get them burnt up. IT ALSO TAKES QUITE A WHILE PER BODY. Another thing certain "historians" fail to note.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #5 on: April 13, 2023, 12:30:11 PM »
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  • Maybe try a home burial: 

    Does anyone know whether home burial is acceptable to trad priests, or is it expected that burial should be in consecrated ground? I get that many of our ancestors were buried this way, but lots of things are not quite the same in the 21st century.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #6 on: April 13, 2023, 12:35:57 PM »
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  • Does anyone know whether home burial is acceptable to trad priests, or is it expected that burial should be in consecrated ground? I get that many of our ancestors were buried this way, but lots of things are not quite the same in the 21st century.
    Maybe the Priests conducting the funeral and burial can consecrate the burial site before the body is placed. Those who would like to consider this option should talk to a Traditional Priests that you trust and find out more information as it is better to have all the answers ahead of time rather than leave it to your family members to figure it all out after you are dead.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #7 on: April 13, 2023, 01:01:22 PM »
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  • Maybe the Priests conducting the funeral and burial can consecrate the burial site before the body is placed. Those who would like to consider this option should talk to a Traditional Priests that you trust and find out more information as it is better to have all the answers ahead of time rather than leave it to your family members to figure it all out after you are dead.

    Makes sense, but an established Catholic churchyard is an established Catholic churchyard. Personal land could get sold a few years later, say in an estate sale administered by some stranger outside the family who isn't so concerned as to what happens to one's remains, consecrated ground or not. It would be something else to have an ages-old ancestral 10+ acres with ivy-covered crypts, but that isn't the case for most of us, alas.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #8 on: April 13, 2023, 01:27:46 PM »
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  • After retiring from the cattle industry (I needed to move to help with my mother who was in her 90’s) I now work as an assistant for a funeral home.  I keep hearing about these $8-10 K funerals.  With our General Price List in hand I have a hard time figuring out where those numbers come from, unless they also include all cemetery expenses, lunch afterwards for everyone, and perhaps 30 days of Gregorian Masses also.  $9,000 just for the funeral home would be rather “top of the line”.  Around $5,000 would be more realistic, with full service and a nice casket.
     
    As when I worked in the daily industry and people would say milk was over priced at $3.00 per gallon, now when people say “Funerals are simply overpriced” I’ll cheerfully respond “Show me the numbers for how to do it for less”.  We have 24/7 on call staff, a fleet of vehicles, three nice facilities with landscaping, most states (including WA where I am) require refrigeration capacity (we can hold about 25 and at times we are beyond that, we get creative), and etc.  I’m just saying that if someone could figure out how to offer traditional full service funeral options at a lower cost they would do well in the marketplace.  The fact that one doesn’t see that might suggest that it’s not as easy as one may think.
     
    Things to do (as I have mentioned several times before, from my work experience):
    1.      SHOP, and yes, ahead of time.  One of the reasons a funeral home might decide to not have more “value priced” offerings is that experience has taught them people won’t shop, research, compare and few will know that their firm may provide better value than the competition.  This removes all incentive, they might as well “run with the pact” as far as pricing goes.
    2.      PLAN.  At the time of death is not a good time to be doing the shopping/research/comparing, this needs to occur ahead of time.  For example, if there is a mortuary that doesn’t have the overhead of a chapel (sometimes meaning lower prices) check with the priest to see if the viewing and Rosary can be held at church the night before the Requiem Mass rather than at the funeral home.  Let the funeral home know you will provide the crucifix for the casket and the rosary for the deceased – some funeral homes may include the cost of this merchandise in their “Catholic package” and you can save that expense.
    3.      WRITE IT DOWN AND LET PEOPLE KNOW.  The best laid plans won’t mean much if those who will have charge of your final disposition don’t know about them.
    4.      START SETTING SOMETHING ASIDE.  We all know we are going to die and it’s just prudent to make provision for that.  I was just thinking of the example of St. Joseph of Arimathea, who had his tomb ready ahead of time and then it was available to accommodate Our Lord (I’ve wondered if St. Joseph of Arimathea was eventually buried in it).
    a.      There are relatively low cost life insurance plans, especially if started while in one’s 20’s and 30’s.
    b.     Funeral homes and cemeteries offer interest free installment plans (pre-need) with modest monthly payments.  This will also usually freeze the cost at the current price rather than the price at the time of need.
     
    In most states the use of a licensed mortuary isn’t required, family and friends can handle it (have a source of dry ice lined up for the shortterm preservation).  This does require research and planning, which most people are inept at or too squeamish about.  This option can greatly reduce cost.
     
    One can construct a simple wood casket, for themselves or someone they know.
     
    If one’s chapel doesn’t have an Altar Society or other group which provides the funeral lunch, have a potluck for this.  Almost all diocesan parishes in the U.S. provide a lunch after the funeral.  Families often make a donation toward this, but it isn’t asked for.  Traditional Mass chapels could begin the same tradition.
     
    Larger towns may have a “memorial society” or discount funeral service provider in addition to traditional mortuaries.  These entities are usually focused on removal, sheltering, paperwork, direct cremation (“You call, we haul, that’s all”) but some offer preparation, funeral directing, can provide a hearse, etc.  As they don’t have chapels, staterooms for visitations, and reception halls their prices are often lower.  If there is a Catholic church where the Rosary (which can be open casket, it’s whatever the family wishes) can be held as well as the Requiem Mass the next morning, and perhaps has a hall where the lunch can be, this can save some money.   Again, sorting this out will require some PLANNING AHEAD.  Also, as these entities usually don’t do very many full-service funerals (their main biz is direct cremation), much less traditional Catholic funerals, the family will have to be prepared to “guide them”.
     
    The point is, most should be able to have a traditional Catholic funeral at an affordable cost, but unless they already have a decent life insurance policy or savings it will require SHOPPING and PLANNING ahead of time.



    Offline moneil

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #9 on: April 13, 2023, 04:55:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is not economical to do individual cremations. The cost to build up and maintain a fire enough to incinerate a human body is HIGHER than the price they can charge for cremation. So they do several at once, and divvy up the ashes to give to the families.

    BTW the bones don't incinerate per se, so those are crushed at the end. That's what you get back as "ashes".

    BTW incinerate is a nice high end word, so of course it's Latin. It basically means INTO ASHES. So when something is incinerated, it is turned into ashes.

    Despite some very widely spread lies *cough* h0Ɩ0h0αx *cough*, human bodies are NOT fuel, and do NOT help you "part of the way" in burning up. They take lots of fuel EVERY STEP OF THE WAY to get them burnt up. IT ALSO TAKES QUITE A WHILE PER BODY. Another thing certain "historians" fail to note.

    As I work at a funeral home and have direct experience assisting in the crematorium, as well as having friends in the business I “talk shop” with, there are some inaccuracies or misperceptions in the quoted post I believe I have an obligation to comment on.

     
    As with any business, funeral homes set their prices based on their costs of operation (facility overhead, utilities [including natural gas], refrigerators, insurance, taxes, staff, depreciation and maintenance of the retort, etc.), to which they add their desired rate of return moderated by the competitive pressure of their market. It is blatantly unethical and illegal to cremate more than one person at a time, the vast majority of funeral directors abhor the very thought of that.  In Washington it is even illegal to use the same retort for both human and animal cremations.  Current pricing reflects the cost of caring for one human at a time.
     
    There may be a few who might try and get away with inappropriate behavior, but they will eventually get caught.  I’ll be referring to Washington law and regulation, but most states will similar.  Final disposition of remains (shipment to another funeral home, donation for medical research, burial, cremation, alkaline hydrolysis, composting) must be reported to the state.  It is pretty simple to compare the number of reported cremations with the amount of natural gas used and figure out if things don’t add up.  For the cremation a form is used where the initial retort temperature is recorded, the time the flame is started, the time the after burner is started, the time the blower is started.  For the first two hours the temperature of the retort and the after burner are charted on a graph every 5 minutes (the difference between the 2 needs to stay in a certain range).  Whenever the blower, retort, or afterburner needs to be shut off and later restarted, the time is recorded on the graph.  The time of completion of the cremation (when the burner is shut off) is recorded.  The “amount of material” in the retort will affect the data on the chart.  These need to be maintained for a period of time and are subject to state inspection.  So, there has to be one form for every reported cremation, and the data on the chart needs to conform to the “attributes” of the person (age, height, type of container, etc.).  Inspectors will notice discrepancies.  Also, families may request to witness a cremation, with involves watching the remains being placed in the retort and the flame being started.  Sometimes a family member may push the button.  Once the flame has started, even if no one else is watching, it would be awkward to try and get “someone else” in there.  While not common, on occasion a family will stay to monitor the whole process (about 3 hours), we have viewing room for this.
     
    Some of the bone will incinerate (i.e. be reduced to ash, there isn’t a “whole skeleton” left), though there will be bone fragments that need to be pulverized.  The cremation container can leave ash.  The fat (adipose tissue) will burn off.  Most of the soft tissue and organs are “vaporized” by the intense heat and the effect of the blower.  There will be variability in the amount and weight of cremains, based on the container used, and the age and height of the deceased (more bone equals more cremains).  If an inspector were to weigh a group of stored urns, minus the weight of the urn, and they were all nearly equal, they would know there is a problem.  It would be difficult to cremate multiple remains together and then accurately divide the ashes according to what their volume and weight should be.
     
    The last paragraph is highly problematic.  Part of our bodies are made up of adipose tissue (fat), and humans carry around a lot more of that these days.  Fat is fuel.  Whale blubber was used for candle “wax” and as oil for lamps.  While not cost effective at the moment, rendered animal fat can be refined into a bio-fuel.   Large people (i.e. those with a lot of fuel) require special handling.    They have to go into a cool retort (the first case of the day) as too much residual heat can cause the body fat to ignite into a fire ball.  Once the cremation of a large person had begun the burner and blower often need to be periodically shut down to maintain a safe temperature in the retort because of the extra fuel from the body fat.  While theoretically such a person might seem more economical to cremate (less natural gas), most crematoriums charge extra for cases over 300 lbs. because of the extra care required and the risk involved.



    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #10 on: April 13, 2023, 08:23:51 PM »
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  • Replying before reading the thread past the opener, I will have to go back when I have more time.

    I have known two families who did their own funerals.

    The first was a large family on a large property. They had given a home to a displaced priest, who'd been kicked out of his priestly work, and had since retired. He had his own little home on the property. He was a Latin Mass man, but adapted himself to the NO.

    The other was a widow with about 6 children, conservative NO. The organised just about everything, from digging the hole by picks and shovels, carrying his body in the family vehicle (or a borrowed one), they chose a small cemetery in a smaller town than the one they lived in. They had a Requiem Mass offered by the parish priest of the smaller town. I would have attended if I had known, but I found out later.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Are poor people forced into cremation?
    « Reply #11 on: April 13, 2023, 11:52:02 PM »
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  • Replying before reading the thread past the opener, I will have to go back when I have more time.

    I have known two families who did their own funerals.

    *** The first was a large family on a large property. They had given a home to a displaced priest, who'd been kicked out of his priestly work, and had since retired. He had his own little home on the property. He was a Latin Mass man, but adapted himself to the NO.

    The other was a widow with about 6 children, conservative NO. The organised just about everything, from digging the hole by picks and shovels, carrying his body in the family vehicle (or a borrowed one), they chose a small cemetery in a smaller town than the one they lived in. They had a Requiem Mass offered by the parish priest of the smaller town. I would have attended if I had known, but I found out later.
    *** Sorry, what I should have said is that the conservative, Latin loving, but NO, priest officiated at the Burial of the grandmother of the family who took him into their home. They had a chapel on the property for daily Mass and it is he who consecrated the burial ground.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024