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Author Topic: Any Heliocentrists on CI?  (Read 5700 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2021, 10:55:06 PM »
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    Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, I know I'm opening a can of worms by saying this, but I find it difficult to take Holy Scripture literally in scientific matters. Take for example this passage from Genesis 1, 14:

    14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.

    On first glance, this sounds like a description of Sun and Moon in the poetic style of Genesis by a terrestrial observer. As we now know, the Moon is only reflecting light and isn't a light source per se, so how can this passage be taken literally? The same problem applies to all the other arguments regarding flat Earth, the Earth dome, Geocentrism and so on.

    1. We use the Douay-Rheims around here, son. ;)
    I haven't memorized all of Scripture, but certain phrases I know pretty well. Not saying it changes the sense of what you quoted, but I can tell it's not Douay-Rheims and that IS a problem.

    2. You're saying that you don't take Scripture literally, even though all Scripture is required to be interpreted that way (unless you're a Modernist). Some passages have a figurative meaning as well, but that doesn't overwrite the literal meaning. You know how everyone (even smart people) LOVE the word "literally" since the mid 2010's? Just sprinkle "literally" throughout the Scripture text, and that's how you're supposed to interpret it.

    3. Last, but certainly not least, you cite "the moon only reflecting light" as an example of Scripture ERRING -- even though that is part of the modern, Freemasonic, NASA cosmology and NOT part of Flat Earth. I'm no Flat Earth expert (I'm just starting to look into it, thanks to recent threads on CathInfo) but I've already learned that FE teaches that the moon is some kind of disc producing its own light.

    If you ask me, that's a point for Flat Earth right there. Scripture can't err. Any cosmology which tends to erode confidence and faith in the Scriptures (Word of God) has to be from the devil.

    Some say "who cares? It doesn't matter!" but right here you're proving just how much it DOES matter. Someone believing in Flat Earth would (according to you) be much more comfortable with Scripture on this specific point.

    Which will help you save your soul: having tons of doubts about God, religion, and Scripture -- or the opposite?

    4. "As we now know" - be careful with that. Official consensus, I mean. Do you REALLY know it? Have you measured it? Or are you taking NASA, the government, or other authorities on faith? Keep in mind: almost everything believed by a mainstream "normie" in 2021 is false. People think throwing a surgical mask over their face prevents disease in any way, or helps more than it hurts! They think a few ragheads with box cutters and amateur pilots precision-flew 2 jet planes into skyscrapers and caused them to collapse into their own footprint at freefall speed. They think we have vaccines to thank for longer lifespans and certain diseases being wiped out (short version: no, it was improvements in hygiene and sanitation). They think we went to the Moon several times in the 70's -- haven't been back since -- and just happened to "lose" ALL the evidence for the trip, as well as the technology to get there. Don't make me laugh!

    "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #76 on: December 12, 2021, 12:12:02 AM »
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  • you cite "the moon only reflecting light" as an example of Scripture ERRING

    Do you think Scripture referring to "two lights" forbids one from being a reflecting light?

    I don't.  A reflecting light is a light.

    Dankward may have read a little too much into the Scripture passage.

    Quote
    4. "As we now know" - be careful with that. Official consensus, I mean. Do you REALLY know it? Have you measured it?

    Would it surprise you there are ways to measure whether moonlight is reflected sunlight?

    Can you think how it might be done?

    Quote
    "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

    We will probably never believe in not breathing, so I guess they will never be "complete".

    Seriously, this quote prima facie concerns politics and business and govt propaganda. Easily-verified observation, not so much.


    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #77 on: December 12, 2021, 02:52:44 AM »
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  • 1. We use the Douay-Rheims around here, son. ;)
    I haven't memorized all of Scripture, but certain phrases I know pretty well. Not saying it changes the sense of what you quoted, but I can tell it's not Douay-Rheims and that IS a problem.
    You're right, I didn't manage to find a Douay-Rheims quickly. The sense stays the same though, I know this passage from memory. Either way, here's the equivalent from Douay-Rheims: http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=1&l=13-#x

    Quote
    2. You're saying that you don't take Scripture literally, even though all Scripture is required to be interpreted that way (unless you're a Modernist). Some passages have a figurative meaning as well, but that doesn't overwrite the literal meaning. You know how everyone (even smart people) LOVE the word "literally" since the mid 2010's? Just sprinkle "literally" throughout the Scripture text, and that's how you're supposed to interpret it.
    Only the magisterium can interpet scripture correctly. Atheists and critics beat evangelicals round the head with problematic literal Bible quotes and interpretations all the time.

    Quote
    3. Last, but certainly not least, you cite "the moon only reflecting light" as an example of Scripture ERRING -- even though that is part of the modern, Freemasonic, NASA cosmology and NOT part of Flat Earth. I'm no Flat Earth expert (I'm just starting to look into it, thanks to recent threads on CathInfo) but I've already learned that FE teaches that the moon is some kind of disc producing its own light.

    If you ask me, that's a point for Flat Earth right there. Scripture can't err. Any cosmology which tends to erode confidence and faith in the Scriptures (Word of God) has to be from the devil.

    Some say "who cares? It doesn't matter!" but right here you're proving just how much it DOES matter. Someone believing in Flat Earth would (according to you) be much more comfortable with Scripture on this specific point.

    Which will help you save your soul: having tons of doubts about God, religion, and Scripture -- or the opposite?

    I didn't cite it as an example of scripture erring. One could at most say the description is not precise - because the moon is not a light source. Perhaps I'm indeed reading too much into that passage.

    What I'm doing is questioning the sanity of my beliefs. And on a related not I've come to the conclusion that Flat Earth is pretty insane belief for a variety of reasons.

    Quote
    4. "As we now know" - be careful with that. Official consensus, I mean. Do you REALLY know it? Have you measured it? Or are you taking NASA, the government, or other authorities on faith? Keep in mind: almost everything believed by a mainstream "normie" in 2021 is false. People think throwing a surgical mask over their face prevents disease in any way, or helps more than it hurts! They think a few ragheads with box cutters and amateur pilots precision-flew 2 jet planes into skyscrapers and caused them to collapse into their own footprint at freefall speed. They think we have vaccines to thank for longer lifespans and certain diseases being wiped out (short version: no, it was improvements in hygiene and sanitation). They think we went to the Moon several times in the 70's -- haven't been back since -- and just happened to "lose" ALL the evidence for the trip, as well as the technology to get there. Don't make me laugh!
    What I do know is that the Moon is upside down in Australia. That doesn't work in a FE model. You can also closely observe the Moon even with amateur telescopes. Also yes, I'm trusting authorities when it makes sense to do so. Man-made objects have been confirmed to be on its surface by multiple sources. We have loads of footage from the Moon surface taken by unmanned probes. It's a solid celestial body.


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #78 on: December 12, 2021, 04:04:26 AM »
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  • We will probably never believe in not breathing, so I guess they will never be "complete".




    Oh, I don't know about that.  Look around.  They are working on it.

    The WEF made a mask that will alert you when to take a breath.

    UN Luciferians don't really like humans breathing:

    https://www.lucistrust.org/the_electric_bridge/electric_masonry_building_the_carbon_temple/the_purified_breath_and_carbon_transformation_part_3

    Anyway, sorry to sidetrack...
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #79 on: December 12, 2021, 05:57:25 AM »
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  • The entire post from Lad to which you are here responding does exactly what you are telling him to do.  I may not agree with you on this issue, but I find it very difficult to believe you are so unfathomably stupid that you cannot even see what is plain to ALL -- Lad already showed Dubay was into FE way before 2015

    As can be found on his website, Dubay sells his books on lulu.com:

    https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/ericdubay

    "The Flat Earth Conspiracy" is of 11/2014.
    "The Atlantean Conspiracy (Final Edition)" is of 11/2013.

    You can find the latter book on libgen.is. It has a chapter "Geocentric Cosmology", where Dubay defends globe earth geocentrism. See attachment.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #80 on: December 12, 2021, 06:01:33 AM »
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  • Dubay wrote his first books dealing with Flat Earth in 2008/2009.


    In "The Atlantean Conspiracy" (11/2013) Dubay defends globe earth geocentrism.

    https://libgen.rs/search.php?req=The+Atlantean+Conspiracy&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title


    Quote
    The Principle is a 2014 American independent film produced by Rick DeLano and Robert Sungenis.
    [...]
    The film was released on October 24, 2014
    [...]



    Physicist Lawrence Krauss was one of those interviewed in the film. He would later say that he was misled into being part of the controversial docuмentary.

    Sugenis dared to mess with Lawrence Krauss.




    Lawrence Krauss visiting Epstein's virgin island:

    https://www.edge.org/conversation/lawrence_m_krauss-the-energy-of-empty-space-that-isnt-zero
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #81 on: December 12, 2021, 06:16:48 AM »
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    Following the release of the film's trailer, narrator Kate Mulgrew said that she was misinformed about the purpose of the docuмentary and that Sungenis' involvement, which would have been a dealbreaker had she been hitherto aware, was not disclosed to her.[3][4][9] Max Tegmark explained that DeLano "cleverly tricked a whole bunch of us scientists into thinking that they were independent filmmakers doing an ordinary cosmology docuмentary, without mentioning anything about their hidden agenda."[10] George Ellis corroborated. "I was interviewed for it but they did not disclose this agenda, which of course is nonsense. I don't think it's worth responding to -- it just gives them publicity. To ignore is the best policy. But for the record, I totally disavow that silly agenda."[10]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle


    April 2013, CI:
    Quote
    As for the coming movie The Principle (www.the principlemovie.com) which has been over two years in the making it would be good to add the following.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/the-principle/msg268751/#msg268751
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #82 on: December 12, 2021, 07:07:35 AM »
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  • I never understood the Mulgrew thing.  She narrated almost the entire thing, so she had to know the content of the film.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #83 on: December 12, 2021, 07:18:16 AM »
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  • I never understood the Mulgrew thing.  She narrated almost the entire thing, so she had to know the content of the film.
    Probably the sin of human respect, she most likely felt embarrassment and shame narrating something that supports Creation.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #84 on: December 12, 2021, 07:21:14 AM »
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  • If you ask me, that's a point for Flat Earth right there. Scripture can't err. Any cosmology which tends to erode confidence and faith in the Scriptures (Word of God) has to be from the devil.

    Some say "who cares? It doesn't matter!" but right here you're proving just how much it DOES matter. Someone believing in Flat Earth would (according to you) be much more comfortable with Scripture on this specific point.

    Which will help you save your soul: having tons of doubts about God, religion, and Scripture -- or the opposite?

    Thank you.  Scripture is inerrant.  Period.  Catholics believe that the Holy Ghost is the PRIMARY author of the Sacred Scripture, and that the human authors are instrumental authors.  In other words, they were the pens held by the Holy Ghost to write the Scriptures.  Now, there's an interesting dynamic between their intellects, etc., but there isn't a single word in Sacred Scripture that wasn't intended to be there by the Holy Ghost.

    Scripture's inerrancy is not limited to the "spiritual" content as a few here have implied.

    That is why St. Robert Bellarmine and the Holy Office condemned heliocentrism as HERETICAL.  He clearly stated that even if it's not a matter of faith in and of itself, it's a matter of faith due to the fact that it was taught by Sacred Scripture and therefore would impugn the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture.

    Now, certain things could be metaphors.  So, for instance, the Holy Office said it was permissible to hold that creation took longer than 6 calendar days because the sun and moon weren't created until day 4.  So perhaps day is a metaphor for period of activity vs. night being a period of inactivity.  But that's about as far as it goes.  St. Augustine points out that the tone and intent of Genesis is clearly historical in nature and not some kind of poem or parable, etc.  And this is what all the Church Fathers held.  So we are bound to treat it that way.  As St. Robert Bellarmine pointed out, Trent teaches that we must accept the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers as the authoritative interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

    There's no way to "metaphor" your way out of the fact that man was created roughly 6,000 years ago.  I've asked the globe earthers whether they believed this.  I don't recall seeing a response (but then I haven't looked at every response in this thread).  In fact, right after I asked that, one of the globers dropped off the thread.  Was man created from the clay/dust of the earth or from a monkey?  There's no way to turn "clay of the earth" into a metaphor for "monkey".  You could say that earth is a metaphor for matter in general, but there's no way to make it a metaphor for a monkey.  [Sorry, Pope Pius XII, you made a tragic error by allowing Catholics to consider that.]

    One could argue that some of the passages which suggest a flat earth are metaphors.  And some of the Church Fathers did.  But some didn't.  So one doesn't have to believe in flat earth as a matter of faith, since we don't have a consensus of the Church Fathers.  But it's very obvious to me that Sacred Scripture taught that there was a SOLID firmament above the earth.  In one passage in Job, it's described as being "hard like brass" (I think some translations say glass).  Not sure how to turn that into a metaphor for the thermosphere or ionosphere.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #85 on: December 12, 2021, 07:23:19 AM »
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  • Probably the sin of human respect, she most likely felt embarrassment and shame narrating something that supports Creation.

    That's my guess too.  She got flack for it afterwards, and so then in hindsight claimed ignorance.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #86 on: December 12, 2021, 07:39:50 AM »
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  • In "The Atlantean Conspiracy" (11/2013) Dubay defends globe earth geocentrism.

    https://libgen.rs/search.php?req=The+Atlantean+Conspiracy&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title


    Sugenis dared to mess with Lawrence Krauss.




    Lawrence Krauss visiting Epstein's virgin island:

    https://www.edge.org/conversation/lawrence_m_krauss-the-energy-of-empty-space-that-isnt-zero

    Wow, lots of interesting posts as I slept last night. Just so that all readers know that the 'science' of 'theoretical physics' practiced by the likes of Krasuss comes from their imagination (or their bums) and has nothing to do with true science. Here is one of them admitting it.


    ‘Nobody that I know of in my field of theoretical physics uses the “so called scientific method.”’ --- Michio Kaku; theoretical physicist at the City College of New York, a best-selling author, and a well-known populariser of science. (Wiki)


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #87 on: December 12, 2021, 09:06:28 AM »
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  • What I do know is that the Moon is upside down in Australia. That doesn't work in a FE model.

    Sure it does.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #88 on: December 12, 2021, 09:09:33 AM »
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  • Lots of comments on Robert Sungenis. Now whereas he did not begin the fight to defend the Catholic Church's position with regard to the Galileo case, he was the one who managed to write up a defence of the Church's part when defending the geocentric revelation of Scripture.

    Here is the history of those who began to defend biblical geocentrism after popes took the heliocentric books off the Index. 

    One could say that the correctness about the Bruno/Galileo affair began in 1860 with a lecture in Germany by Prof. C. Schoeppfer on the geocentric cosmology of the astronomer Tycho de Brahe (1546-1601) called The Earth Stands Fast.  Then scientific experiments with light in 1870 and 1887 produced evidence for geocentrism that stunned and silenced the scientific world, resulting in Albert Einstein’s efforts to rescue heliocentrism from these trial findings. The most recent attempt to establish the truth of the Galileo affair itself began in 1967 when the Dutch Canadian schoolmaster Walter van der Kamp (1913-1998) began writing up his scientific investigations; succeeded by Dr Gerardus Bouw, Marshall Hall, R. G. Elmendorf and others. Undoubtedly, Walter van der Kamp must be credited as the one who provided the foundations upon which an updated solution could be assessed by others. It was Walter’s writings that gave many just cause to follow him in his crusade to show how the ‘faith and science’ aspect of the Galileo ‘riddle’ could be investigated properly.
       
    On the Catholic side we find the writings of Solange Hertz, John R. Fohne, Martin Gwynne, Stephen Foglein and Paula Haigh, who in her writings emphasised the necessity of Thomistic metaphysics for Catholic theology. To these we must add the name of Paul Ellwanger, a man who, at his own expense, disseminated the works and opinions of all the above, and others like Dr Patrick Gill who helped us to bring the facts out in the open so that interested parties like ourselves could know the truth of this subject matter. More recently we have the ‘Newtonian’ enhanced geocentrism of Robert Sungenis who has written many books on the affair like Galileo was Wrong. Add to this the 2014 film called The Principle, produced by Sungenis, with Robert Bennett and Rick Delano, a thorough examination of the position of the Earth within the universe from the perspective of natural science, which also has a bearing on the truth of the Galileo affair. For those disposed to the existence of a point of cosmic centrality, the considerations addressed in their movie and videos render the Earth as worthy of being so considered.


    It was Sungenis's book Galileo Was Wrong that brought the subject out to many more than would read the likes of Paula Haigh's writings. For that he must get credit. Please do not take this credit from him by pointing out other things about his beliefs. We all have our own faults in these confusing times. Any defence of geocentrism is a defence of the sacred doctrine of Biblical geocentrism,  thast defended by st thomas Aquinas, St Robert Bellarmine and the popwes of 1616 and 1633.  

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Any Heliocentrists on CI?
    « Reply #89 on: December 12, 2021, 09:29:51 AM »
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  • What I do know is that the Moon is upside down in Australia. That doesn't work in a FE model. You can also closely observe the Moon even with amateur telescopes. Also yes, I'm trusting authorities when it makes sense to do so. Man-made objects have been confirmed to be on its surface by multiple sources. We have loads of footage from the Moon surface taken by unmanned probes. It's a solid celestial body.
    I'm not a Flat Earther but the Moon thing would work in the standard Flat Earth model.