Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery  (Read 3361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17563
  • Reputation: +9852/-4290
  • Gender: Male
Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2019, 02:10:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Prudence should dictate care and caution in this realm, and men should have enough self-control not to jump at suspicions.

    Marrying a divorcee automatically brings prudent suspicions along with it.  People should avoid coming to definitive conclusions based on such a suspicion, but the suspicion is unavoidable.  And no, not everyone has run their situation by a priest, especially if they know it's irregular.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 22945
    • Reputation: +20086/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #61 on: February 12, 2019, 02:20:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Marrying a divorcee automatically brings prudent suspicions along with it.
    And there are far too many "divorcees". Divorce needs to become much less socially acceptable than it currently is. Right now, it's treated about like having blond hair. "No big deal."
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17563
    • Reputation: +9852/-4290
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #62 on: February 12, 2019, 02:29:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • And there are far too many "divorcees". Divorce needs to become much less socially acceptable than it currently is. Right now, it's treated about like having blond hair. "No big deal."

    Yes, even when it's justified based on ecclesiastical criteria, it still should be viewed as a bad thing.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4425
    • Reputation: +2701/-1246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #63 on: February 12, 2019, 02:30:44 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    1. While my uncle did marry a divorced woman, that doesn't mean he wasn't validly married. Could be any number of reasons, including: Pauline/Petrine privilege, annulment of her previous marriage, or the previous spouse is now deceased. Terminology can be muddied in the modern world. Yes, sometimes people continue to identify as divorced even though they are not, or a widow, by Catholic thinking.
    Look, words have meaning.  If your uncle is validly married according to the Church, yet says that she was "formerly divorced" then he is using faulty terminology and those who interpret the use of the word "divorced" as meaning "formerly sacramentally married" would not be wrong.

    In the case of the pauline/petrine privilege, the woman is not "divorced" in the eyes of the Church since her first "marriage" was just a natural union and not a true, sacramental marriage.

    In the case of an annulment, there was never a marriage, so divorce isn't supposed to be part of the explanation.

    If your uncle used correct terminolgy, then the "talking behind his back" wouldn't be bad but just truthful fact-sharing.

    Example:  If when i was 6 years old, my younger brother died in a car wreck because I didn't buckle his seat belt like my mom told me to, of course this is an accident.  But if I walked around telling people "When I was young, I killed my brother" they would rightly interpret that I actually, physically killed him...because those are the words I am using to convey the idea.

    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 511
    • Reputation: +153/-210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #64 on: February 16, 2019, 07:28:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!5
  • Look, words have meaning. 
    Yes, words have meaning. They have meaning for people outside the traditional movement, who may in some cases use these words in a different sense.
    If you insist on interpreting words according to a sense a person didn't intend, that's on you.


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2925
    • Reputation: +1616/-955
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #65 on: February 16, 2019, 08:32:02 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, words have meaning. They have meaning for people outside the traditional movement, who may in some cases use these words in a different sense.
    Then words have no meaning.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17563
    • Reputation: +9852/-4290
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #66 on: February 17, 2019, 10:50:58 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Yes, words have meaning. They have meaning for people outside the traditional movement, who may in some cases use these words in a different sense.
    If you insist on interpreting words according to a sense a person didn't intend, that's on you.

    Presumably YOU are a Traditional Catholic posting on a Traditional Catholic forum, so the expectation is for you to use the proper terms, even if worldlings do not.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +169/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #67 on: February 18, 2019, 07:22:16 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • You brought up advising people. There can be circumstances people don't know. Is it the layperson's job to function as marriage investigator?

    Also recall the Pauline privilege and Petrine privilege.
    I would have thought it was yes.  At least to the point of speaking up when they know a person has a dodgy marriage.
    It is right there in the marriage service.
    "If any person present knows of any lawful impediment to this marriage, he or she should declare it now"

    So it is right there as an invitation or even a command.  And it would not be included if it was not a layperson's responsibility to speak up when they knew.


    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3002
    • Reputation: +169/-175
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #68 on: February 18, 2019, 07:43:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because practically all annulments today are counterfeit.
    I don't agree.
    I think many marriages if not MOST marriages today are counterfeit, because people enter them thinking "if this does not work out I will get divorced, or with expectations of 2 children, home-ownership, a career for the wife, and a world cruise and early retirement.  Since the VAST majority of people enter marriage intending to use contraceptives, then the vast majority of marriages must be invalid, since a lack of openness to life invalidates a marriage and using contraceptives from day one demonstrates a clear intent.
    I cannot speak for other cultures, but I certainly see a LOT of this in the UK.  Once a culture starts referring to people as "my partner", rather than my husband or my wife, then the formality of marriage is dead.  It's like acquiring a driving licence in Somalia.  Why bother?  Nobody else has one and even if you can drive you have to bribe the examiner assuming an examiner exists in the first place.
    But this is not to say that the solution is to issue more annulments, but rather to refuse to marry people who cannot demonstrate and in fact articulate that understanding.  If the Church ever recovers and leads the world out of this mess I imagine it will need to have a marriage course where people are scrutinised before they are allowed to marry each other in Church.  Then one could reasonably apply tougher judicial standards to annulments.   But it would have to be a very different world than the one we live in for this to work.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 22945
    • Reputation: +20086/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #69 on: February 18, 2019, 07:47:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't agree.
    I think many marriages if not MOST marriages today are counterfeit, because people enter them thinking "if this does not work out I will get divorced, or with expectations of 2 children, home-ownership, a career for the wife, and a world cruise and early retirement.  Since the VAST majority of people enter marriage intending to use contraceptives, then the vast majority of marriages must be invalid, since a lack of openness to life invalidates a marriage and using contraceptives from day one demonstrates a clear intent.
    I cannot speak for other cultures, but I certainly see a LOT of this in the UK.  Once a culture starts referring to people as "my partner", rather than my husband or my wife, then the formality of marriage is dead.  It's like acquiring a driving licence in Somalia.  Why bother?  Nobody else has one and even if you can drive you have to bribe the examiner assuming an examiner exists in the first place.
    But this is not to say that the solution is to issue more annulments, but rather to refuse to marry people who cannot demonstrate and in fact articulate that understanding.  If the Church ever recovers and leads the world out of this mess I imagine it will need to have a marriage course where people are scrutinised before they are allowed to marry each other in Church.  Then one could reasonably apply tougher judicial standards to annulments.   But it would have to be a very different world than the one we live in for this to work.

    1. Then this is the fault of the Conciliar Church, which fails to properly prepare couples for marriage or even vet them before marriage -- this alone is enough reason to be a Trad (leave the Conciliar Church, even if it means staying home on Sundays)

    After all, what affects your chance of salvation more than your vocation or marriage? It's kind of important.

    2. Even if they are OK in God's eyes, it doesn't change the fact that man SOMETIMES forgives and nature NEVER forgives. You will still have all the issues of divorce that any worldling experiences: ex-spouses, child custody, child support, dealing with lawyers and courts, demeaning the other spouse when you're with your child, comparing past partners to your current one, jealousy, loneliness, etc.

    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17563
    • Reputation: +9852/-4290
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #70 on: February 18, 2019, 08:03:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, this is what marrriage preparation was supposed to be for ... so that there's no excuse like this in play after the couple has been united.  If they won't agree to the terms of the Church, then they are not to be married in the Church.  Then there's the scenario of someone telling the priest that they agree to the Church's conditions for valid marriage but not really "meaning" it.  Well, tough beans.  Never has the Church made any judgments based on the internal forum, otherwise all anybody would have to claim was that in their own minds they never really MEANT the marriage vows.  Just like with intention in the Sacraments, the intention is always presumed by the Church if you do the external act.  So, whether or not these marriages are valid in the eyes of God, they are presumed to be valid in the eyes of the Church.  De internis Ecclesia non judicat.

    Now, of course, in the Conciliar sect, I hear of those "Pre-Cana" classes (from people who have gone through them) focusing on things like how to balance your checkbook and how to budget.


    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 511
    • Reputation: +153/-210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #71 on: February 18, 2019, 08:16:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would have thought it was yes.  At least to the point of speaking up when they know a person has a dodgy marriage.
    It is right there in the marriage service.
    "If any person present knows of any lawful impediment to this marriage, he or she should declare it now"

    So it is right there as an invitation or even a command.  And it would not be included if it was not a layperson's responsibility to speak up when they knew.
    That is before the marriage.

    Offline St Paul

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 151
    • Reputation: +144/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #72 on: February 18, 2019, 08:21:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • 1. Then this is the fault of the Conciliar Church, which fails to properly prepare couples for marriage or even vet them before marriage -- this alone is enough reason to be a Trad (leave the Conciliar Church, even if it means staying home on Sundays)

    It happens in trad churches, too.
    Satan is an equal opportunity employer.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 22945
    • Reputation: +20086/-243
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #73 on: February 18, 2019, 08:27:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It happens in trad churches, too.
    Satan is an equal opportunity employer.
    Yes, but as I've said a thousand times, there's a difference between a PROBLEM (which could be random, due to human nature, etc.) and a FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM with a group, which is caused by the very nature/charter of the group.

    For example, it's fundamental that the Conciliar Church is open to the Modern World: thinking like it, respecting it, updating its doctrines and practices to better suit it, etc. This is not true about the old SSPX or current-day SSPX Resistance. You might find worldly people attending their chapels, yes, but they would be doing so IN OPPOSITION to everything the group stands for. See the difference?

    You can't blame a group for failing to control members who are rebellious and refuse to obey. What can the organization do when their authority is denied? The only answer is to judge an organization by its officials, its leader, and its charter -- the fundamentals of an organization -- what defines an organization. 

    An organization is certainly not defined or summarized by the behavior of its rebellious or disobedient members!

    When a Conciliar "catholic" is worldly, he's being a good Conciliar "catholic".
    When a trad is worldly, he's being a bad trad (going against the teachings of his priests, the organization that runs his chapel, the beliefs of his fellow-parishioners, etc.)
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2925
    • Reputation: +1616/-955
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Annulments - VII church path to hell by Adultery
    « Reply #74 on: February 18, 2019, 08:52:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would have thought it was yes.  At least to the point of speaking up when they know a person has a dodgy marriage.
    It is right there in the marriage service.
    "If any person present knows of any lawful impediment to this marriage, he or she should declare it now"

    So it is right there as an invitation or even a command.  And it would not be included if it was not a layperson's responsibility to speak up when they knew.
    That is before the marriage.
    Think before writing. That was an excellent point made by ggreg. No one can argue against it. The same lawful impediment before the marriage invalidates the marriage forever. The same lawful impediment is what will be used in the future to validly annul the marriage.  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16