Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: Magdalene on February 14, 2007, 01:41:18 AM
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Remember, O Christian soul, that you have this day, and every day of your life--
God to glorify,
Jesus to imitate,
The angels and saints to invoke,
A soul to save,
A body to mortify,
Sins to expiate,
Virtues to acquire,
Hell to avoid,
Heaven to gain,
Eternity to prepare for,
Time to profit by,
Your neighbor to edify,
Passions to subdue,
Devils to combat,
The world to despise,
Death perhaps to encounter,
And judgement to undergo.
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It doesn't say anything in here about clobbering error. Or the erroneous.
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It doesn't say anything in here about clobbering error. Or the erroneous.
"God to glorify"
"Jesus to imitate"
"Your neighbor to edify"
"The world to despise"
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Must be a problem of definition.
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It doesn't say anything in here about clobbering error. Or the erroneous.
Hate the error; Love the erroneous.
Clare.
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Clobber neither. If a thing can't be done gently, as Jesus did it, then it shouldn't be done at all. Good show, Clare.
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'It doesn't say anything in here about clobbering error. Or the erroneous.'
No, in fact it would be much better if we just let error roam free because to correct it would be impolite. After all, what is important is our feelings, not the truth.
:rolleyes:
I think I remember Our Lord saying something to that effect.
----END SARCASM----
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As one of your converts, I'm willing to testify, Gee ilbert. Ever since you decided to "make (me) see reason", I have had first hand experience of your skills in converting people. We could talk about the toxicity level you bring to the process and compare it with the working of the Holy Spirit in His office of convicting the world of sin, and so on. :popcorn:
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Clobber neither. If a thing can't be done gently, as Jesus did it, then it shouldn't be done at all. Good show, Clare.
What was our Lord cleansing the Temple of moneychangers all about then? Our Lord would have been tough in speaking to and about the Pharisees as well. Sometimes you have to be tough, especially with those who should know better. Gentle does not always work in every case. The Vatican right now is being too gentle, and that can be a big problem. We all need to be tougher. I know I need to be. And, yes, there can be, I guess, a sort of toughness in gentleness, but sometimes you need to let toughness show forth in being tough.
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I'm not going there, Keph. If Gilbert's methods are good, then the fruit will be good. Anyone who takes on the job of forming souls needs more than his own mouth for credentials.
How is your mother, Keph? I keep praying for her and never hear if she made it through alright.
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St. Ignatius decided to "get tough" on error, you know. Here is an excerpt from his turning point, but it, unfortunately doesn't say what changed his mind.
He had decided that he wanted to go to Jerusalem to live where our Lord had spent his life on earth. As a first step he began his journey to Barcelona. Though he had been converted completely from his old ways, he was still seriously lacking in the true spirit of charity and Christian understanding, as illustrated by an encounter he had with a Moor on the way. The Moor and he came together on the road, both riding mules, and they began to debate religious matters. The Moor claimed that the Blessed Virgin was not a virgin in her life after Christ was born. Ignatius took this to be such an insult that he was in a dilemma as to what to do. They came to a fork in the road, and Ignatius decided that he would let circuŠ¼stances direct his course of action. The Moor went down one fork. Ignatius let the reins of his mule drop. If his mule followed the Moor, he would kill him. If the mule took the other fork he would let the Moor live. Fortunately for the Moor, Ignatius' mule was more charitable than its rider and took the opposite fork from the Moor.
He proceeded to the Benedictine shrine of Our Lady of Montserrat, made a general confession, and knelt all night in vigil before Our Lady's altar, following the rites of chivalry. He left his sword and knife at the altar, went out and gave away all his fine clothes to a poor man, and dressed himself in rough clothes and sandals and a staff.
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And Peter cut off the ear of a Roman soldier, yet he was rebuked by our Lord.
James 3.
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Being tougn on error is one thing -- resorting to violence is another (slashing off peoples' ears, killing non-Catholics).
It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.
Matthew
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Being tougn on error is one thing -- resorting to violence is another (slashing off peoples' ears, killing non-Catholics).
It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.
Matthew
I was thinking something along those line myself too, Matthew. :cowboy:
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Being tougn on error is one thing -- resorting to violence is another (slashing off peoples' ears, killing non-Catholics).
It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.
Matthew
The thing about that is, you don't always know who might listen to you, when it is a forum, since there's more than one person present. Even those that are present often put on a fascade to pretend to be something they are not just to win over 'friends'.
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Being tougn on error is one thing -- resorting to violence is another (slashing off peoples' ears, killing non-Catholics).
It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.
Matthew
The thing about that is, you don't always know who might listen to you, when it is a forum, since there's more than one person present. Even those that are present often put on a fascade to pretend to be something they are not just to win over 'friends'
***edit**** ... I wasn't too clear here, but I agree with you totally.
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How is your mother, Keph? I keep praying for her and never hear if she made it through alright.
Well, I believe she is hanging in there. Thank you for your prayers. Since you mention my mother now, I am thinking of starting another thread to ask for prayers concerning her.
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Being tougn on error is one thing -- resorting to violence is another (slashing off peoples' ears, killing non-Catholics).
It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.
Matthew
I just had a thought! LOL
And I never considered this before, but does anyone here think that, perhaps, there is symbolism in the fact that Peter cut off an ear to punish the soldier coming for Jesus?
What was Peter doing just earlier? He was sleeping, and right after our Lord asked him to stay awake with him in prayer. Wow. How many times to we sleep, feeling that we've done enough according to our state (when we really haven't) to keep watch with our Lord, being always mindful of his Presence, also within other who receive him?
So, Peter whips out a sword and slices off his opponents ear. The ear, perhaps, here has further significance, in that it is the method in which people hear. But even just the outer ear, which is both a symbol of what it does interiorly, and also we expect people to have ears. Someone with one less ear, for example, is pitied. Peter, in his rage, sought to punish his opponent through giving him a public humiliation. Perhaps, Peter did this as just a hot-head, as our Lord recognized was a trait of Peter in a nickname he had given him (I can't remember what it was now, "Thunder"?) This bitter zeal does not allow for one to discern the holy Will of God. Many of us do not have the authority to wield the cord in lashing out the temple dwellers profaning the House of Our Lord, for example.
It is also important to be mindful that even withholding the sword, but speaking truth itself, even in the most careful 'tone', the truth will divide. Our Lord describes himself as not bringing peace, but rather "the sword of truth" that will divide. Since some seed will fall on rocky ground, it is not possible that every word will be received in the same way. Often, as when it comes to lifestyles, morality is perceived as a threat to freedom, and such a threat when posed, regardless of tone, will be responded to with hostility. (This is particularly the case with regards to issues of purity, since it's enemy is lack of temperance.)
This is pretty cool to consider (I got this from:
Question 55. Vices opposed to prudence by way of resemblance (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3055.htm)
I think this is useful to consider prudence in speech, and also on another level, the very virtue that is sought against directly on another forum. It's interesting, that one could fight against something yet be unwittingly supporting it in their actions, as a result of not understanding it's root.
I'm only going to include here the information to prudence (according to St. Thomas):
Prudence
PRUDENCE ITSELF: The virtue of prudence (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3047.htm) (47)
PARTS: The parts (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3048.htm)(48) of prudence. Each quasi-integral part (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3049.htm)(49) of prudence. The subjective parts (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3050.htm) (50) of prudence; especially the prudence with which a man rules himself (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3047.htm) (see 47), and that with which he rules others (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3050.htm)(50). The quasi-potential parts (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3051.htm)(51) of prudence, that is, the related virtues.
GIFT: The corresponding gift of prudence, which is counsel (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3052.htm)(52).
VICES: The vices opposed to prudence, some of which are obviously opposed such as imprudence (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3053.htm)(53) and negligence (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3054.htm) (54) which is opposed to solicitude; and others which bear a false resemblance (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3055.htm) (55) to prudence.
PRECEPTS: The precepts concerning prudence (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3056.htm)(56).
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'As one of your converts, I'm willing to testify, Gee ilbert.'
Wow. Base mockery? I see nothing is beheath you.
'Ever since you decided to "make (me) see reason", I have had first hand experience of your skills in converting people.'
a. It is, apparently, impossible to help you see reason.
b. I am wholly uninterested in converting anyone. As this is a Catholic forum, I would think that would be unnecessary here.
'We could talk about the toxicity level you bring to the process...'
We could talk about, oh, say your sedevacantism and your Americanism and the fact that they -- and your emotionalism -- cloud your judgement. Thus far, I've kept the debate impersonal and focused on the argument, not the person making it.
But, patience is not a virtue I possess in any abundance.
'Anyone who takes on the job of forming souls needs more than his own mouth for credentials.'
I wonder how an implied and supposed lack of credentials tallies up against, say, Sedevacantism, Americanism, and emotionalism...?
'It is not charity to let someone live on in error -- however, fraternal correction must be done with prudence. It must be done with humility, tact, and knowing that the person might listen to you.'
The effectiveness of fraternal correction is directly related to the willingness of both the 'correcter' and the 'correctee' to set aside their Pride and focus on Catholic truth.