Then again, to get kicked out of the chapel, they'd better have some real dirt on him, some actual misconduct, not just their suspicions.

Raoul, the priest gave me an ultimatum - do not attempt to contact the girl without the father's consent or you'll be kicked out.  The girl was 18 at the time.  Now there's no possible justification for that.  

I don't know exactly what happened, but let me speak of a hypothetical.  If a young-ish man of 30 or so named Gelephorus were to be targeted by a mother who sees him as the perfect suitor for her 48-year old widowed daughter

The one waiting outside the gate near where I was parked had a young daughter that was anxious to be married, it was some other poor woman who told me about a poor 42 year old widow.

-- and if this same Gelephorus begins pitching woo to a 17-year old nubile instead -- and if this mother was sort of the queen bee of the church and had the priest wrapped around her finger -- a situation like this could easily turn sticky.

I'm pretty sure she thought the girl I liked was somehow for her son (besides the factor of jealosy in the daughter) - that's the only way I could account for the hysterical, panicked reaction I got from that girl and her mother.

It sounds like Tele was, at worst, imprudent.  We are in America so minds here are colored by the American mindset, which is that interest in a young girl is automatically perverted.  

The priest should correct that sort of evil thinking, not fan the flames.  I am very suspicious about the motives of this priest.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the Catholic religion that is against marrying a teenage girl, except that you are supposed to respect the fair secular laws.  Courting a young girl and waiting until she is of marriageable age doesn't strike me as wrong from a Catholic perspective -- someone correct me if I'm mistaken.  But from an American perspective, it's simply not done.

It certainly was done not long ago.  We're supposed to be Traditional Catholics, not feminists.

 

You would probably have to get special permission to court a younger girl, the priest and the parents would all have to approve, and that isn't what happened.

No, they don't need to approve - not after the girl was 18.  

I would only have brief exchanges with a girl this young.  I wouldn't sit in the car or the library with her as I've done with older girls there.  If I did sit in the library with a 16-year old, people would get suspicious, and though they'd be wrong to be suspicious, it would be understandable.  Sometimes you have to anticipate these things and not fan the flames.
 

These priests have absolutely no right to do this to people.

My dad works in law enforcement.  They deal with this crap all the time.  Dump her and try out that dating service.  You deserve better!

Thank you for your support Jehanne.  It means a lot to me when it seems so many people at that church think it's just fine what they did to me (not all, thankfully)

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Yes, I have had experience with good and holy SSPX priests. I only said that Tele is wrong to call them cultish just because he got in trouble for hitting on a teenage girl (I still don't completely understand his story).

SS - I was kicked out of the parish.  And yes, it is very cultish.  They wanted to represent me as crazy guy who was pursuing this girl without any encouragement.  Priests who lie and tell other people to lie - to make people in the parish think you're a lunatic are despicable people.

It's your own fault for hitting on a girl 11 years younger than you. I'm not convinced that they are cultish because of something YOU did, and Raoul doesn't seem to be convinced by your statement either.

SS - she is 14 (when I spoke to her father he'd always talk about 20 years though - what a loon!) years younger than me, and what I did wasn't wrong.  There's nothing in the Catholic religion to say that a man my age liking a girl that age is wrong.  To say it is justifiable to threaten to kick a man out of church - to make frivolous and malicious reports to the police - to tell the other fathers this guy is out for their daughters -  to lie and pretend that I was acting without any encouragement - all these are the acts of malicious pharisees.  And the people who support them and go along with they did because they think I deserved it are pharisees too.

Tele, I'm not talking about the secular law.  Legally, you don't need consent from the parents when the girl hits 18, but you're in the Church.

According to the laws of the Church, I don't need their consent.  Children do not need their parents consent in choosing or seeking a spouse.  

 

There is other protocol involved.  Just because it's technically legal for you to hit on a young girl doesn't mean everyone is going to do jumping jacks about it.  

Raoul, that's not the point - and I resent this implication that I was hitting on her.  I introduced myself to her when she was walking directly in front of me on purpose.  She's given me plenty of indication of her sentiments already - I'm pretty shy.  It was quite clear she liked me.

Imagine you had a daughter.  Now imagine someone who was coming to church, someone with tattoos all over who said he was reformed, was hitting on her, and totally ignoring you.  Would you instantly just say "Go ahead, take my daughter!  You're perfect!"

Here's the point Raoul - they have no right to tell her she can't speak to me, no right to tell me I can't contact her, and no right to kick me out of Church.  I certainly don't have any tattoos either.  

Because of the age gap, you have to win the trust of her family.  But instead, it sounds to me like you were trying to cut them out entirely, which makes you seem more louche and shady.

No, it's not true.  I tried talking to the father.  I was even stupid enough to forgo the one real chance I had to talk to her because of my scrupulosity, because I didn't want to do something wrong - I believed those priests who said you needed parental permission.  Her father was a Puerto Rican whose response to me was to pretend I was crazy, that I'd imagined the way she'd acted towards me - it became quite clear to me he was never going to give me the opportunity to speak freely with her. ("lick your wounds, she's not interested in you")

 

You constantly talk about how you don't need the father's consent.

Raoul, it's a simple fact.  If the father refuses consent I'm not bound by that.  Either someone respects what the Church teaches or they are pharisess.

If I were a father, that would irritate me big-time.  It's disrespectful.  Catholics are pro-family, and you're acting like it's nothing to you to smash one up.

I don't see how talking to a girl after Church is "smashing up a family."  The only way someone can see it that way is if he is a machismo addled lunatic.

The problem is, no one here knows the whole story.  What concerns me is that, when you write about this, you start to get emotional and lose control.  You don't sound like you're thinking clearly.  That makes me wonder if there is more than meets the eye here.

Raoul, the bottom line is I never attempted to seduce these girls.  I was treated as trash, lied about, reported to the police, because I wanted to talk to a girl who showed every indication, for nearly a year, of liking me, but being restrained by pharisees in the confessional.

God knows what's going on, I don't.  I have no idea if you deflowered more virgins than Casanova in your twenties, or what you're really like.  

You Raoul, if I were unscrupulous, I wouldn't be in this position.  That's what makes it sting all the more.  The SSPX operates in a manner that rewards hypocrisy.

I feel certain that we met for a reason - we were really well suited for each other in every way.

If only I had been better and wiser this disaster would never have happened.  But that doesn't excuse the jealous, spiteful pharisees who treat me like a monster for falling in love with a girl who had made every effort to charm me.

From what you say in your last post, they certainly have no cause to kick you out.  Unless you were mistaken about her advances and you were seeing what you want to see, like a rapist who says "She was coming onto me, she licked her lips."  But I have no reason to suspect that's the case.

That's the worst thing about the way they treated me - acting as though I was imagining everything - delusional - to destroy my reputation - that was their story - I was simply imagining, misinterpreting - it's a deliberate lie on their part - they would even drop the pretense from time to time - but they made sure to make it clear to me they absolutely not ashamed to lie.  He didn't have the girls brothers following her and following me because they thought I was going to chase her down against her will.

Interestingly the girl's older brother seemed quite hostile to me at first but I think he realized what was really going on and after that he was always polite and kind to me.  The girls younger brothers - not so much.

Tele, what is the girl like?  Is there any chance that she was simply flirtatious, but that this flirtation went farther than she intended?

What did she say to you, what was your relationship like, did she say she wanted to be married?  Did she say she was in love with you?  Or was it all kind of vague and you just "knew" she liked you?

Raoul, I told you - me spoke only one time, and she was forbidden to speak to me after that.  All I ever asked was to be able to speak freely with her after mass.  They finally had her tell me 14 months after meeting her - with her father and the priest present, that she'd never had feelings for me - and to add insult to injury she said she couldn't remember acting the way she did.  But they never once, in over a year, let me speak to her with any sort of freedom.  

Listen Raoul, there's nothing vague about a girl walking in front of you path, week after week, facing directly towards you, and raising her eyes towards your own.  There's nothing vague about a girl following right behind you down a dark staircase when no one else is around.  There's nothing vague about a girl who looks into your eyes and smiles at you again and again for over a year.

This is pretty degrading to be called crazy.  It really burns the way people are willing to believe what they say and treat me like a delusional lunatic - for some reason people want to say that and believe that even though I'm certain they know it isn't true.  

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