Author Topic: America and courting 18-year-old virgins (Read 62894 times)

Matthew · « **Reply #600 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:09:34 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

As was pointed out in another thread, only 14% of Catholics polled objected to premarital sex. If they really believed Catholic teachings they would think that avoiding temptation is far more important than having a long engagement.

Tele, you're as bad as me about adding to your posts after the fact. :)

Again, you're confusing the issue GREATLY by bringing Novus Ordo Catholics into the mix. What are we talking about here, pagans, Novus Ordo Catholics (very similar), or trad. Catholics?

I'm sure most trad Catholics are against pre-marital sex.

And what is a "long engagement"? 6 months is NOT.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #601 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:10:43 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Six months is a typical length; however if you had older individuals involved it might be reduced by even half.

I find that it takes several months just to plan a wedding.

Well if it really takes that long then there's something wrong with the size and scope of weddings.

I mean it seems ridiculous to me that the idael length of engagement should be determined by the wedding party preparations.

A marriage is a brief ceremony that's easy to carry out.

Most people don't plan parties 6 months in advance. If weddings are different it's because they've become a racket.

Just like diamond rings are virtually a criminal racket - a DeBeer's Oppenheimer tax on Christians who want to marry.

In Poland the Jews would often hold the keys to churches and demand people pay them for services like marriage. The diamond ring industry is no different.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #602 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:13:16 PM »

If the man has asked and the woman has accepted, I do not see the need for any delay. Six months is, IMO, an arbitrary period with little to no support. If a man and woman have already courted for some period, however short or long, and desire to be wed, it does not take six months (or four, etc.) to ascertain their fitness and resolve. IMO, waiting for several months is asking for trouble -- especially during this era.

I do not believe that was the way of things in saner eras (among which I am NOT including how things were done in the 50s).

As for the plans, that, too, is more of a modern phenomenon. IMO, normal people did not invite guests from all over creation, nor arrange for mega-parties, etc.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #603 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:14:19 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Again, you're confusing the issue GREATLY by bringing Novus Ordo Catholics into the mix. What are we talking about here, pagans, Novus Ordo Catholics (very similar), or trad. Catholics?

I'm sure most trad Catholics are against pre-marital sex.

But they follow customs set up by Novus Ordo Catholics who had stopped worrying about premarital sex when they started approving of unreasonably long engagements, coeducation, and delay of marriage of women for "education."

Quote

And what is a "long engagement"? 6 months is NOT.

The idea that an engagement should be at least six months is causing most engagements to be too long.

Any Catholic would weight the importance of avoiding temptation caused by waiting with infinitely more gravity than they would weight the time needed to prepare a wedding party.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #604 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:17:17 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

And what is a "long engagement"? 6 months is NOT.

When and how did this become the 'norm'? It MAY have always been so, but I have seen no evidence to support the idea. Sure, it is the norm in trad chapels (and even Novus), but whence did it arise? [As an aside, the NO chapel where I grew up requires eight months' notice.]

FWIW, it is funny that trad priests lay down this rule, as they do not even have the faculties to marry people.

Matthew · « **Reply #605 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:19:52 PM »

In our culture -- the one in which we live -- it would be scandalous to have a wedding 2 months out.

It would look like the woman is already pregnant, or that the wedding is no big deal.

This isn't the Middle Ages.

And I think the woman (at least) would like to celebrate a life-long commitment a little bit. A wedding is worth celebrating.

The man can wait and practice the virtue of patience -- it won't kill him.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #606 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Matthew
And what is a "long engagement"? 6 months is NOT.

When and how did this become the 'norm'? It MAY have always been so, but I have seen no evidence to support the idea. Sure, it is the norm is trad chapels, but whence did it arise?

FWIW, it is funny that trad priests lay down this rule, as they do not even have the faculties to marry people.

In the Islamic world they actually care that a woman is a virgin - and they have elaborate wedding parties.

After a few meetings a couple is often already deciding the future.

That's normal. This society has practically abolished marriage - there is almost nothing normal about any of its customs pertaining to marriage.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #607 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:25:07 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

In our culture -- the one in which we live -- it would be scandalous to have a wedding 2 months out.

Scandalous to whom?

Quote

It would look like the woman is already pregnant, or that the wedding is no big deal.

That "scandal" would die down considerably when the mother gave birth a sufficiently long period after the wedding.

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This isn't the Middle Ages.

Correct Matthew - we live in an anti-Christian time, not a Christian time. So I don't understand why people are arguing for customs that put more importance on imaginary scandals and parties than they put on the importance of a bride being a virgin on her wedding night.

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And I think the woman (at least) would like to celebrate a life-long commitment a little bit. A wedding is worth celebrating.

Sure. She doesn't need a stereotypical wedding party.

Quote

The man can wait and practice the virtue of patience -- it won't kill him.

When these long engagements are broken off it compromises the reputation of the girl - and often the long engagement could very well be the reason for the breakup of what would otherwise be a happy marriage - if there were a real commitment on both sides.

Marriage is about commitment.

Everything in the modern world is about rejecting that, about not holding to your word, about keeping options open, and long engagements fall right into that category.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #608 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:28:10 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Catholic Samurai
Yall didn't have a shotgun? A round would have changed the course of history! :stare:

Making light of shooting someone.

I've come to understand why there are so many murders south of the border. Pride and murder walk hand in hand.

1. He was kidding.

2. I think he was suggesting shooting over his head, as a warning shot -- not aiming right for the guy :)

He was saying that if the aim was the scare the guy away, an ATV just doesn't do the job. You need firearms.

He's kidding but it doesn't change the murder rate connected to the sort of people who defend that ruthless way of dealing with people.

Some of these Latin states have ghastly murder rates - and it isn't all tied to drugs - there are a lot of killings over "honor"

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #609 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:31:55 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

In our culture -- the one in which we live -- it would be scandalous to have a wedding 2 months out.

Has that always been so? If NOT, when did the shift take place? While it MAY be true that SOME would take scandal, that does not make something, in se, scandalous.

Quote

This isn't the Middle Ages.

That is irrelevant, but it is plain Christendom had many things right that we have turned upside down. Again, do you know when the shift occurred? I do not, but I also do not think my great-grandparents were made to wait six months, etc.

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A wedding is worth celebrating.

Of course it is. That is not in dispute.

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The man can wait and practice the virtue of patience -- it won't kill him.

Unless I missed something, I do not believe anyone is arguing the contrary.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #610 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:52:02 PM »

Quote

TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER (LATE-1990s)

COUNTRY

PER 100,000

(1) Columbia   84.4
(2) El Salvador   50.2
(3) Puerto Rico   41.8
(4) Brazil   32.5
(5) Albania   28.2
(6) Venezuela   25.0
(7) Russian Federation   18.0
(8) Ecuador   15.9
(9) Mexico   15.3
(10) Panama   14.4

I understand that in many places machismo is dying out and full blown feminism is taking over. The fertility rate in Latin America is dropping very rapidly - they too are adopting the modern values that are antithetical to Catholic marriage.

Emerentiana · « **Reply #611 on:** March 29, 2011, 09:01:17 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Catholic Samurai
Yall didn't have a shotgun? A round would have changed the course of history! :stare:

Making light of shooting someone.

I've come to understand why there are so many murders south of the border. Pride and murder walk hand in hand.

Oh Tele, you need to chill!!!!!!! My advice is to you......go see a priest so you can get some Catholic viewpoints. BTW the church has taught a 6 mo courtship is ideal.....longer than that is an occasion of sin. :alcohol:

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #612 on:** March 29, 2011, 11:14:43 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Catholic Samurai
Yall didn't have a shotgun? A round would have changed the course of history! :stare:

Making light of shooting someone.

I've come to understand why there are so many murders south of the border. Pride and murder walk hand in hand.

1. He was kidding.

2. I think he was suggesting shooting over his head, as a warning shot -- not aiming right for the guy :)

He was saying that if the aim was the scare the guy away, an ATV just doesn't do the job. You need firearms.

Was I now? :wink:

Good ol' Matthew. Always giving the benefit of the doubt!

FWIW, I know somone who put a guy in the hospital for sleeping with his wife. No trouble from the federales (so far as I know).

My post is certainly open to interpretation, but mind you, we're talking about our girls here. But then... "over the head" would be more prudent... I was thinking in the shoulder.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #613 on:** March 29, 2011, 11:16:14 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER (LATE-1990s)

COUNTRY

PER 100,000

(1) Columbia   84.4
(2) El Salvador   50.2
(3) Puerto Rico   41.8
(4) Brazil   32.5
(5) Albania   28.2
(6) Venezuela   25.0
(7) Russian Federation   18.0
(8) Ecuador   15.9
(9) Mexico   15.3
(10) Panama   14.4

And you are bitter that you couldn't pilfer la puma's pearl WHY???
You should be giving thanks! :wink:

MaterDominici · « **Reply #614 on:** March 29, 2011, 11:17:18 PM »

CS, I told Matthew what you really meant and he didn't believe me. :good-shot: