Author Topic: America and courting 18-year-old virgins (Read 62868 times)

Telesphorus · « **Reply #30 on:** March 21, 2011, 12:33:05 AM »

Raoul I met her when she was 17 (it took a few months to know how old she was because she had been bound not to speak to her after our initial introduction and because I didn't know anyone else at the chapel who could tell me) but she was over 18 when I was threatened to be kicked out of Church if I tried to contact her. She's 19 now but those pharisees still wouldn't approve of the age difference (14 years). The SSPX priests have even said from the pulpit (in a stentorian voice) "you do not take a girl until you get the father's permission." They've made up their own system of morality and it isn't based on Catholicism.

It's not perverted for a man my age to pursue a girl that age, and anyone who says it is a feminist pharisee.

btw I accidentally "deleted" your post.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #31 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:20:49 AM »

"take a girl out"

Telesphorus · « **Reply #32 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:35:27 AM »

There was no reason that the girl was forbidden to speak to me - she didn't even say "hello" - except that she was a girl and her father didn't want her speaking to me. Like I told you I know she was forbidden because she was very upset, saying "I'm sorry" as she passed my pew to go to the confession line. She ignored me after mass, but a few weeks later she was not ignoring me, just not speaking to me - not even daring say "hello."

To tell you the truth, at that time I held many scruples - I believed what the SSPX priest said from the pulpit, that I needed the father's permission. I was very, very stupid to think that Puerto Rican would ever be straight with me.

As to the honesty of the priest: there were several young women paying marked attention to me - I never had the intention of doing wrong with any of them - and when I tried to discuss this with this the priest his reaction was to pretend it was in my head (they are just being friendly!) - it was part of the setup for the story they were going to go with - that I was completely delusional and infatuated. Whatever the truth was didn't matter - what mattered was to make me out to be a danger so they could get rid of me.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #33 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:40:42 AM »

Matthew maybe you should split this off from the topic.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #34 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:48:09 AM »

As to the "cultish behavior" -

I never did anything to justify it - but twice now priests have told me I've been reported to the police. I've never heard a word from the police. These SSPX priests are not above encouraging people to make frivolous reports to the police. What it shows me is that some of these priests are not only dishonest but are merciless bullies who will resort to dirty tricks to get rid of someone.

Right now it seems to me the SSPX is in the grip of such bullies in Bishop Fellay's clique - it does not surprise me that the mentality spreads from the top down.

Jehanne · « **Reply #35 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:56:00 AM »

Such conduct, not only being unethical, may also be illegal. It's called harassment.

Jehanne · « **Reply #36 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:04:52 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

There was no reason that the girl was forbidden to speak to me - she didn't even say "hello" - except that she was a girl and her father didn't want her speaking to me. Like I told you I know she was forbidden because she was very upset, saying "I'm sorry" as she passed my pew to go to the confession line. She ignored me after mass, but a few weeks later she was not ignoring me, just not speaking to me - not even daring say "hello."

To tell you the truth, at that time I held many scruples - I believed what the SSPX priest said from the pulpit, that I needed the father's permission. I was very, very stupid to think that Puerto Rican would ever be straight with me.

As to the honesty of the priest: there were several young women paying marked attention to me - I never had the intention of doing wrong with any of them - and when I tried to discuss this with this the priest his reaction was to pretend it was in my head (they are just being friendly!) - it was part of the setup for the story they were going to go with - that I was completely delusional and infatuated. Whatever the truth was didn't matter - what mattered was to make me out to be a danger so they could get rid of me.

Such conduct may have worked in feudalistic Europe, but not here, not now. If they are 18 they are free, which means that they can date or have sex with whomever they want. (In actuality, they probably earned that right at age 16 or 17, depending upon the state they are residing in.) If it were me, I would have probably passed one of them a note saying, "Hey, baby, if you want to get married, then, let's run-off and get married." In some respects, I have to be thankful for the NO priests a bit, because if every priest acted like some SSPX priests, the Catholic Church would be reduced to a single, squabbling, backbiting parish where no one gets along with each other. I appreciate very much the liturgical and doctrinal orthodoxy of the SSPX (although, with respect to the latter, I think that they are overstepping their bounds somewhat) and especially their commitment to the moral and traditional law, but not their bad attitudes. As I said, this is America, and everyone ought to respect everyone else's rights and liberties. For better or for worse, feudalism is dead.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:54:56 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Such conduct may have worked in feudalistic Europe, but not here, not now.

The irony Jehanne is that in feudal Europe the Church did not impose parental will on children, but freed them from it. "Enlightenment" Spain imposed parental will on children - and feminist America doesn't want any young women getting married, and wants to treat a man interested in a young woman as a predator by default.

Quote

If they are 18 they are free, which means that they can date or have sex with whomever they want. (In actuality, they probably earned that right at age 16 or 17, depending upon the state they are residing in.)

Certainly there are no legal penalties - I was never trying seduce any of them.

Quote

If it were me, I would have probably passed one of them a note saying, "Hey, baby, if you want to get married, then, let's run-off and get married."

Had I been better informed and less scrupulous and trusting of untrustworthy people I'm fairly confident I would not be in this situation now and I would not have violated my conscience to do what I was free to do by right.

Quote

In some respects, I have to be thankful for the NO priests a bit, because if every priest acted like some SSPX priests, the Catholic Church would be reduced to a single, squabbling, backbiting parish where no one gets along with each other. I appreciate very much the liturgical and doctrinal orthodoxy of the SSPX (although, with respect to the latter, I think that they are overstepping their bounds somewhat) and especially their commitment to the moral and traditional law, but not their bad attitudes.

There is definitely a very serious problem.

Jehanne · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2011, 08:33:41 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Certainly there are no legal penalties - I was never trying seduce any of them.

If they are 18, there are no legal penalties against seduction, unless the woman does not want to be seduced. But, one cannot answer that question until after the seduction has begun.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2011, 08:40:51 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Telesphorus
Certainly there are no legal penalties - I was never trying seduce any of them.

If they are 18, there are no legal penalties against seduction, unless the woman does not want to be seduced. But, one cannot answer that question until after the seduction has begun.

What I said is confusing Jehanne - what I meant is -

1) these people were trying to bring the police into something that wouldn't have been criminal even if I really were a wicked predator

2) I never intended evil - but that didn't stop them from trying to drag my reputation through the mud - telling the fathers of all the girls I was a menace to their daughters.

in my case it was never an issue of intending to do evil

Jehanne · « **Reply #40 on:** March 21, 2011, 09:10:40 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Telesphorus
Certainly there are no legal penalties - I was never trying seduce any of them.

If they are 18, there are no legal penalties against seduction, unless the woman does not want to be seduced. But, one cannot answer that question until after the seduction has begun.

What I said is confusing Jehanne - what I meant is -

1) these people were trying to bring the police into something that wouldn't have been criminal even if I really were a wicked predator

2) I never intended evil - but that didn't stop them from trying to drag my reputation through the mud - telling the fathers of all the girls I was a menace to their daughters.

in my case it was never an issue of intending to do evil

My dad works in law enforcement. They deal with this crap all the time. Dump her and try out that dating service. You deserve better!

Raoul76 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 21, 2011, 12:41:30 PM »

Quote

Such conduct may have worked in feudalistic Europe, but not here, not now. If they are 18 they are free, which means that they can date or have sex with whomever they want. (In actuality, they probably earned that right at age 16 or 17, depending upon the state they are residing in.) If it were me, I would have probably passed one of them a note saying, "Hey, baby, if you want to get married, then, let's run-off and get married."

Of course, the secular law also says you can make porno and distribute it on the Internet. Despite its lawfulness, if someone at SSPX did that, the priest should still have a problem.

Tele could have done what you said, but it's not the best recipe for a stable Catholic marriage to alienate the entire family of your bride.

There's still too much that's unknown about this situation. We're only hearing one side of the story. From the way Tele tells it, he didn't do anything to deserve getting kicked out, but are we really hearing everything? Then again, to get kicked out of the chapel, they'd better have some real dirt on him, some actual misconduct, not just their suspicions.

I don't know exactly what happened, but let me speak of a hypothetical. If a young-ish man of 30 or so named Gelephorus were to be targeted by a mother who sees him as the perfect suitor for her 48-year old widowed daughter -- and if this same Gelephorus begins pitching woo to a 17-year old nubile instead -- and if this mother was sort of the queen bee of the church and had the priest wrapped around her finger -- a situation like this could easily turn sticky.

It sounds like Tele was, at worst, imprudent. We are in America so minds here are colored by the American mindset, which is that interest in a young girl is automatically perverted.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the Catholic religion that is against marrying a teenage girl, except that you are supposed to respect the fair secular laws. Courting a young girl and waiting until she is of marriageable age doesn't strike me as wrong from a Catholic perspective -- someone correct me if I'm mistaken. But from an American perspective, it's simply not done. You would probably have to get special permission to court a younger girl, the priest and the parents would all have to approve, and that isn't what happened.

The dynamic between a teenage girl and a 30-year old man is extremely awkward. You aren't old enough to radiate harmless paternalistic concern, but you're not young enough that it feels all innocent and cute like when two teenagers are conversing in church, and perhaps thinking of marriage ( yes, younger Catholic girls can be very mature spiritually, but there is still that gap in experience. ) It can come off kind of predatory or wolf-ish.

I would only have brief exchanges with a girl this young. I wouldn't sit in the car or the library with her as I've done with older girls there. If I did sit in the library with a 16-year old, people would get suspicious, and though they'd be wrong to be suspicious, it would be understandable. Sometimes you have to anticipate these things and not fan the flames.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2011, 02:02:27 PM »

I still found Tele's story confusing, but if this is why he thinks the SSPX is cultish just because he hit on a girl 11 years younger than him, then he's not thinking clearly. What he did sounds disgusting to me.

s2srea · « **Reply #43 on:** March 21, 2011, 02:36:17 PM »

I can see why some would call the SSPX cultish. I know its not a cult, but there is some major politicing going on at some of the centers I've been to. Some, unfortunately, include priests who join in the 'festivities.'

And it is these priests who, imho, make all the difference. I've met priests of the SSPX who were saintly and people I look up to to this day. On the other hand, there are some SSPX priests in positions of power, who abuse that power. They play politics and even intimidate other priests.

Spritus- I'd venture to say you have very good and holy priests whom you've had good experience with. These were the priests who I was fortunate enough to have experiences with (Frs. Nichols and Hewko) Unfortunately, many priets in the SSPX have a MAJOR lack of Charity. I can only pray for them.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #44 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:14:18 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

I can see why some would call the SSPX cultish. I know its not a cult, but there is some major politicing going on at some of the centers I've been to. Some, unfortunately, include priests who join in the 'festivities.'

And it is these priests who, imho, make all the difference. I've met priests of the SSPX who were saintly and people I look up to to this day. On the other hand, there are some SSPX priests in positions of power, who abuse that power. They play politics and even intimidate other priests.

Spritus- I'd venture to say you have very good and holy priests whom you've had good experience with. These were the priests who I was fortunate enough to have experiences with (Frs. Nichols and Hewko) Unfortunately, many priets in the SSPX have a MAJOR lack of Charity. I can only pray for them.

Yes, I have had experience with good and holy SSPX priests. I only said that Tele is wrong to call them cultish just because he got in trouble for hitting on a teenage girl (I still don't completely understand his story).