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Author Topic: Agonizing moral theology question --  (Read 6441 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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Agonizing moral theology question --
« on: August 22, 2011, 03:35:41 PM »
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  • I have to leave for an appointment in a second, but I wanted to get the site's opinion on this.  Is downloading CDs off the Internet really theft?  I mean, clear-cut theft?  

    Allow me to get Jesuitical.

    Some people say it's not theft.  Some say it is.  I think the truth lies in between.  If it is theft, pure and simple, then downloading a CD even if you never listen to it would also be theft.  But that is ridiculous.  Music files you download, and that are never heard, do not cause actual loss to the artist, whereas a ring that is taken from a Jєωelry store can never be sold, and the owner takes a loss.  Clearly, it's not the same, which is probably why people go back and forth on this topic without ever coming to any clear answers.  In the days of cassette tapes, when people used to copy them for friends, there was not such a hubbub over "stealing music."  It was common.

    Where it becomes theft, I would say, is if you intend to keep the stolen / burned CD, listening to it repeatedly, never intending to buy the real copy for that reason.  You are then in POSSESSION of music that you otherwise would have paid for, thus causing a loss to the artist and their music company.  But this is a very confusing grey area, because there is nothing immoral, nor even anything illegal according to the secular law, in recording movies off TV.  By this logic, it shouldn't be illegal to download music, only in copying it and selling it.  There's a contradiction here.

    All of these things make it very difficult to say that downloading music is theft, although something about it DOES feel wrong.  Someone who never intends to spend a single cent and racks up a huge collection of downloaded CDs, how can this not be, at some level, immoral?  

    My question is, at what point does restitution have to be made?  If you had once had downloaded CDs and enjoyed them, but you have changed your tastes and  no longer use them, do you have to make reparation for having used them in the past?  What if you only listened to it once and were on the fence about whether you liked it or not?  How much would you have to listen to a downloaded CD before it became actual theft -- because I think everyone will agree it can't be theft to download a CD and sample some of the tracks to see if you want to eventually buy it.




    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 03:39:05 PM »
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  • I'm no expert on this, but I think you're right that it's not really theft just to download a CD and see if you're interested in buying it. I'd say you're fine.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 03:43:31 PM »
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  • One thing I just thought of -- in the case of movies playing on TV, the film company has made a profit by selling the rights of the films to the TV station.  So they are not necessarily losing money when you copy it, although it is true that if you do that, you are unlikely to buy the DVD.

    In the case of downloaded music, though, there is no profit whatsoever for the artist or his company.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 03:45:02 PM »
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  • I didn't say I had or hadn't downloaded CDs, Spiritus, we're speaking hypothetically here.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 03:45:26 PM »
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  • Ah, IP law (intellectual property). What a fascinating stumbling act the non-Catholic world does when this issue comes up.

    In my opinion, I believe it is theft if you have it, listen to it (repeatedly) and still do not patronize the artist or producer. Imagine if everyone ( I mean not ONE person ever purchased this thing I'll mention shortly..) took a perfect photographic image of some artist's painting, only to take home to some $50k printer, frame it, and hang at home. Does not the artist have a right to a fair wage or any wages at all due to his interest in using his talent for a sale?


    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 03:46:55 PM »
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  • And this isnt really an "agonizing" moral theological question... lol. When I opened the thread, I was waiting for some question based on greed of one's possessions, or lust after a flirty female.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 03:51:16 PM »
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  • Fortunately for us, the music that costs the most is generally the trash you shouldn't be listening to anyhow. Classical music, folk songs, kid sing-a-longs ... all pretty cheap to acquire.

    Recording music off the radio would be the equivalent to recording TV and you're still free to do so all you'd like. They get paid via the advertising in these mediums.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 04:59:30 PM »
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  • Intellectual property doesn't necessarily give the possessor the same rights as the owner of tangible property.  

    Just as one's duty to pay taxes isn't the same necessarily as one's ordinary debts.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
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  • Whenever this question comes up on Catholic Answers, it receives a plethora of responses.  It is very, very tricky -- thus agonizing -- Party Is Over, especially for those who feel it might have some bearing on their salvation but can't get anything remotely like a clear, consistent answer.  I think trads probably download less music than Novus Ordo Catholics, but I wasn't always a trad nor a Novus Ordo Catholic.  That isn't to say that I did or didn't download thousands upon thousands of CDs before I was baptized.

    I thought this would be interesting for certain more theologically experienced minds to investigate.  Many of the Catholic Answers people, who probably are extremely liberal with dogmatic theology, are extraordinarily strict and Pharisee-like when it comes to moral theology.  There are some on that site who say downloading music is "stealing" point blank, every time, and this is clearly wrong for the following reasons:

    ( a ) We are supposed to follow the secular law, yes, but the spirit of it and not the letter -- does anyone drive at PRECISELY the speed limit?

    ( b ) There is the matter of people recording songs off the radio.  Some say that only certain songs are played on the radio, the ones the record company releases to the public, but in reality, sometimes the entire album is played, or other songs not released officially are played.  

    On classical music stations, an entire piano or violin concerto or symphony that comprises more than half of a current release is commonly played.  Would it be wrong to record music off of this station?  I think everyone would agree it would be scrupulous to say yes.

    The logic is, "Well, the copy won't sound quite as good."  Okay -- then I'll use the same logic for a downloaded CD, such as that you don't get the cover art and liner art, the notes, the lyrics, the whole "experience" of buying a CD, complete with pictures of the scantily-clad "star" who made it.  Sometimes the CDs you buy have special features, videos that you gain access to if you pop it in the computer player.  Therefore, just as a recording off the radio is not the same, a downloaded CD is not the same as one you buy.

    ( c ) We are supposed to follow just laws.  Many of the laws regarding copyright are incoherent, unjust, insane, or a combination of the three.  People will be randomly sued for downloading music, people who have 20 songs on their computer perhaps, while others have a million, and they will be asked to pay some arbitrarily high amount of money.  Would the people who think downloading music is theft dare to justify that kind of craziness?  

    ( d ) Copyright infringment is not the same as theft.  This is a critical distinction people miss when they try to bring in the 6th commandment.  

    Someone on Catholic Answers with a more nuanced, Jesuitical mind -- which is required to figure this problem out -- brought up a decision of the Supreme Court, Dowling v. United States:

    "[Copyright infringement ] does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud...  The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone.  But he does not assume physical control over copyright, not does he wholly deprive its owner of its use."  

    ******************

    I am not saying that it's right to download music and never pay for it.  But if you download it for the purpose of sampling a CD, though this is not what the record companies want, you cannot call it theft.  It just goes against what they want, and what they have manipulated ( bought? ) the law into going along with.

    If a sin is involved in downloading just to sample, it is the sin of breaking the law.  But let's face it, we all do that in numerous ways every day.  It would be impossible to live in this red-tape-festooned society if we didn't.
     
    While the recording companies don't want people to download music, going against their wants isn't necessarily stealing.  Stealing is when someone is deprived of a good that belongs to them.  There is no way to say that someone who downloads a CD isn't borrowing rather than stealing; it's all about his intent.  Someone who does this may actually have no intention whatsoever to buy a certain CD, but since he can download it for free, he does so. The record company does not actually LOSE anything, the way that a seller of antiques loses something if someone comes into his store and makes off with an emerald-encrusted Tiki mask.  

    In fact, the record company may gain something, because this person who otherwise wouldn't be interested may end up liking the downloaded CD so much that he buys it.  This adds more grey area.  Can anyone say that downloading harms record sales instead of increasing them?  It is evident that it gives certain artists more exposure than they would have otherwise, and that they tacitly support it for that reason.  Unexpected benefits to the record companies would not, of course, justify the theft of CDs, if downloading was always theft.  But I have just shown, I believe, why it isn't.  

    Where the record company / artist do lose something is if someone who WOULD buy the music otherwise doesn't do so, because he is satisfied with his copy.

    Therefore, to me, if there is a line to be crossed, it is crossed when the intention becomes to keep the downloaded copy and never buy a hard copy.  For this to happen, the file-sharer in question would have to know ( a ) That he wants this particular CD in his collection and ( b ) That, nevertheless, he intends never to purchase it.   He could have a CD for years and years without ever reaching this point, perhaps being on the fence quasi-permanently about certain CDs.  

    It would be very hard to ever say when someone has stolen the thing or not.  It would be between God and the file-sharer, like NFP is between the priest and the couple and God.  There are no fixed rules for using it, just like there are no fixed rules for the ethics of downloading.  You just have to listen to what God is telling you.  If you really, really like something and never want to be without it, then buy it.  You have to be careful not to fool yourself into thinking you are only lukewarm about a certain CD, to give yourself an excuse not to buy it, when in reality you love it.  If you find yourself playing it more than once a week, that would be your first clue.  But I know of a person ( not saying it's necessarily me ) who had tons of downloaded CDs that he never got around to listening to at all, or heard only once, or only in part.  Could this be theft?  

    ***************

    That is what I have come up with.   Keep in mind this is just a layman's opinion reached after a day of contemplation, and thus is worth absolutely zilch.  No one should act on my advice.  On second thought, I'm not giving any advice, but rather thinking out loud.

    I am going to ask Father Gabriel at CMRI to see what he thinks.  I already did ask Father Dominic, but he seemed unsure, as most people are on this topic.  He zig-zagged and made it about something else -- does the person who downloaded the music know, at the time they do so, that they are stealing?  If they don't, then it is not sin.  I think sometimes that is hard to assess, though, because to this day, no one knows if it's stealing or not, the way that EVERYONE knows that taking a gold nugget from an old lady's house is stealing.  I think that the reason why no one knows if it is or isn't stealing has been solved in this post -- it doesn't become stealing or anything even close to it unless you have a firm intention to NEVER buy the CD you have downloaded.  In my opinion...

    People who do it will often feel that something is wrong with what they're doing, especially when they reach the point where they realize they're no longer buying CDs and are just downloading everything.  But I don't think they would equate the "wrongness" they feel to something as clear-cut as theft.  It's more like an indefinite borrowing that has uncomfortable similarities to theft, and can become theft, but in a way that is very hard to acknowledge or recognize, while "classic" kinds of theft, like shoplifting, are blatantly theft.  

    There is another aspect to all this, something that no one on Catholic Answers even mentioned -- whether, if it is a sin to download music, reparation must be made.  Most of them assume that it's enough to just get rid of the downloads. But this is an inconsistency.  If it is theft, shouldn't reparation be made?  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Agonizing moral theology question --
    « Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 09:24:11 PM »
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  • Telesphorus said:
    Quote
    Intellectual property doesn't necessarily give the possessor the same rights as the owner of tangible property.

    Just as one's duty to pay taxes isn't the same necessarily as one's ordinary debts.


    I agree with the first part, that is another way of saying that copyright infringement is not the same as theft ( though the lines can blur ).

    In the second part, I'm not sure if you are going as far, but that smacks of the Freeman on the Land kind of logic; the government is corrupt, and thus we can rip them off at will.  To me, that is a slippery slope.  It pretty much directly contradicts "Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's."  Can one really just walk away from a debt with impunity because they were tricked by an evil, sham system to incur the debt?  I would say their culpability is lessened somewhat in God's eyes, but not entirely obliterated.  

    Of course, you are not saying that one's guilt about not paying taxes is eliminated, you are saying that taxes aren't the same as other kinds of debts.  I am too exhausted to think about that one at the moment but it sounds about right.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    « Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 09:35:14 PM »
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  • Do you ever feel excessively wordy, Raoul?  : )

    To compensate, I'll just say that I largely disagree with everything you said in that lengthy post above.  :smirk:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline Daegus

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    « Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 09:42:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    I have to leave for an appointment in a second, but I wanted to get the site's opinion on this.  Is downloading CDs off the Internet really theft?  I mean, clear-cut theft?  

    Allow me to get Jesuitical.

    Some people say it's not theft.  Some say it is.  I think the truth lies in between.  If it is theft, pure and simple, then downloading a CD even if you never listen to it would also be theft.  But that is ridiculous.  Music files you download, and that are never heard, do not cause actual loss to the artist, whereas a ring that is taken from a Jєωelry store can never be sold, and the owner takes a loss.  Clearly, it's not the same, which is probably why people go back and forth on this topic without ever coming to any clear answers.  In the days of cassette tapes, when people used to copy them for friends, there was not such a hubbub over "stealing music."  It was common.

    Where it becomes theft, I would say, is if you intend to keep the stolen / burned CD, listening to it repeatedly, never intending to buy the real copy for that reason.  You are then in POSSESSION of music that you otherwise would have paid for, thus causing a loss to the artist and their music company.  But this is a very confusing grey area, because there is nothing immoral, nor even anything illegal according to the secular law, in recording movies off TV.  By this logic, it shouldn't be illegal to download music, only in copying it and selling it.  There's a contradiction here.

    All of these things make it very difficult to say that downloading music is theft, although something about it DOES feel wrong.  Someone who never intends to spend a single cent and racks up a huge collection of downloaded CDs, how can this not be, at some level, immoral?  

    My question is, at what point does restitution have to be made?  If you had once had downloaded CDs and enjoyed them, but you have changed your tastes and  no longer use them, do you have to make reparation for having used them in the past?  What if you only listened to it once and were on the fence about whether you liked it or not?  How much would you have to listen to a downloaded CD before it became actual theft -- because I think everyone will agree it can't be theft to download a CD and sample some of the tracks to see if you want to eventually buy it.






    In Canada there's no way in hell downloading music can be a sin. Regardless of whether I pay for music or not, they are actually using my tax dollars to fund the music industry. So even if I don't listen to music at all I'd still be paying for it! They can't claim I'm stealing when they're the ones stealing from me :devil2:
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 09:43:52 PM »
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  • Yes, sometimes I'm excessively wordy, but believe it or not, not in this thread.  I'm not just playing around or showing off, but analyzing a problem from every possible angle -- or trying to.  Like a Jesuit or Salamanca theologian, but in a crude way.  Nevertheless, it's not only Jesuits or Salamancans who want to find the truth.

    Please elaborate on what you disagree with.  I don't see how it's possible to disagree with almost everything there, because parts of it are undeniable.  You have to give some reasons!  

    Do you believe downloading a CD is always theft?  If you sample it to see if you want to buy it, is that theft?  If not, then you have to admit, it is not always theft to download CDs... This opens the door to all the grey area.  People who deny the grey area here puzzle me; but I was the same way with NFP.  


    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 09:44:56 PM »
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  • That's another interesting point, Daegus, thank you for mentioning it.

    In Canada, indeed, downloading music is not against the law.  Would you say, Mater, that it is still against God's law?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    « Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 10:13:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Please elaborate on what you disagree with.  I don't see how it's possible to disagree with almost everything there, because parts of it are undeniable.  You have to give some reasons!  


    I will. I'm just unavailable to do so at the moment. The baby doesn't seem as interested as we are in the question at the moment.  :baby:  :smirk:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson