Author Topic: affording to raise a family? (Read 4518 times)

TCat · « **on:** August 05, 2013, 09:26:15 AM »

I don't have a family to raise, and am not married, not even close, but this is partly about my wondering of what I ought to do with this life. I have met someone at college who likes me and who I think would make a good wife, but Im not saying that I feel it is my vocation to get married.
I see problems if in theory I was to get married. I am 28 and in years time I will still be in college. The purpose of marriage is to bring children into the world. I cant afford children. Both of us are on very basic levels of college. Im not saying she will end up with me but if in theory she did, we would both be on welfare for several years. In this country the state gives you a house if you wait enough time on the waiting list and you cant afford to buy one yourself, and the social welfare gives an extra payment called childrens allowance to help with the cost of kids. But the welfare is small enough and any family starting on such money would be very poor for several years, perhaps permanently.
I know the romance wears off after a while and the ability of the man to provide for his woman is a duty of his that keeps the marriage happy, and being poor might mean it would be happy at the start then miserable afterwards for both of us.

What do people think about needing to have money to raise a family?
( Remember Im not saying this is what I will do, just wondering on the subject)

ggreg · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:00:40 AM »

If you are really asking anonymous strangers on the internet and not just posting because you have nothing better to do; then I would say you probably should not get married.

At 28 years old a man should have enough sense of his own value, purpose and plan to not have to ask the sort of questions you are asking. These are questions you should have been thinking about 10 years ago, and by now you should have them resolved and be WELL underway with a plan, if not already married.

If by 28 you haven't worked out whether you want to be married or not and are still wondering what to do about life, then I would suggest some serious reflection and throwing your ass into gear, whatever you decide to do.

And yes. Being married does require money. Children cost money, child care means one of you not working. Then there are grocery bills, local taxes, education costs (homeschooling is cheaper than private schooling but it is not CHEAP). $50-60,000 a year (before tax) is probably enough if you live a very basic life. If you want to run a decent car, have 1-2 children per bedroom, not 3-4, eat nice food and take a family vacation once every 2 years then you'll need closer to $100k gross.

My household energy bill alone is $4000 per year, (gas and electric). Water is another $1000 and that is very cheap because of where I am. Local taxes (property tax is $4000). Then there is maintenance on your home. I just laid a new kitchen floor and shopped around for the best deal, $5000 for 350 sqft including leveling the subfloor. It is good and should last 12-20 years, but that is what stuff costs.

I do know some Trad couples permanently living on welfare, but ALL of them have serious marital problems and all bar one of them have remained in that state. Many of them "stop" at 2-3 children because of the economics. Stopping means they abstain from sex for good. Now there are circuмstances where particularly holy people do this and it can be a good thing, when done for the right reasons. But in their case the decision is a purely economic one. They don't have the space and they are struggling economically with 2-3 children. Under those circuмstances it is problematic.

Moreover, look at the long term economic prospects of Western Europe. Governments are broke. Welfare programs are going to be cut to the bone and even in placed like the UK, people are now being forced to take any job rather than refusing to work. So it will be MUCH harder living on welfare over the next 20 years than it was in the previous 20.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:13:07 AM »

Quote from: TCat

I don't have a family to raise, and am not married, not even close, but this is partly about my wondering of what I ought to do with this life. I have met someone at college who likes me and who I think would make a good wife, but Im not saying that I feel it is my vocation to get married.
I see problems if in theory I was to get married. I am 28 and in years time I will still be in college. The purpose of marriage is to bring children into the world. I cant afford children. Both of us are on very basic levels of college. Im not saying she will end up with me but if in theory she did, we would both be on welfare for several years. In this country the state gives you a house if you wait enough time on the waiting list and you cant afford to buy one yourself, and the social welfare gives an extra payment called childrens allowance to help with the cost of kids. But the welfare is small enough and any family starting on such money would be very poor for several years, perhaps permanently.
I know the romance wears off after a while and the ability of the man to provide for his woman is a duty of his that keeps the marriage happy, and being poor might mean it would be happy at the start then miserable afterwards for both of us.

What do people think about needing to have money to raise a family?
( Remember Im not saying this is what I will do, just wondering on the subject)

If you find someone truly committed to you and to Catholic marriage then should marry. Before marriage get a job that pays enough to survive.

Wages have been allowed to decline to levels that are no longer able to support families because the government is subsidizing low wages through welfare and support for mass migration, without this subsidization the middle man class wouldn't be able to crush wages as they have.

So don't feel guilty about welfare. That's not suggesting you should rely on it.

The next generation of Catholics needs to carry on. The sort of people who don't want it to carry on are the sort of people who talk about a "gardening, homeschool welfare lifestyle" - they send their children to public schools, they say that trads who try to live off the grid remind them of Jihadis - in short, they say things that reflects the mindset of the DHS, the SPLC, or various Jєωs in their acquaintance. They obviously don't care about your future.

If they are berating you for asking people here it's probably because they can't stand the people here and don't want there to be more people like the people here. Things can improve for you.

The people trying to guilt you into not carrying on the next generation are hostile people.

The sort of people who now run the neo-SSPX, for example.

They measure the value of things by money.

It's important to avoid mistakes, but don't let liberals discourage you. That is their goal. And they aren't only online. There are liberals who will try to harm you in some trad chapels too, liberals are hostile to traditionalists.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:14:34 AM »

If you're in a country or region that is a social hell-hole and getting worse, get out, get to the countryside.

TCat · « **Reply #4 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:19:15 AM »

Hmm. I see what youre sayin ggreg, but just don't underestimate how nieve and underprepared people are these days without solid Catholic experience behind them. I have little experience of exposure to a Catholic environment, and I am a convert to trad Catholicism as of 5 years ago. These questions have something to do with the future of my soul and hence I try to get ideas off experienced trad catholics to guide me. There is no point in me seeking advice from secular sources which were all I have experience of, because they wont factor my religion into the equation. This topic was to get ideas. You say couples who are poor have problems with kids, that's all I needed to know.

Tiffany · « **Reply #5 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:25:15 AM »

Quote from: TCat

Hmm. I see what youre sayin ggreg, but just don't underestimate how nieve and underprepared people are these days without solid Catholic experience behind them. I have little experience of exposure to a Catholic environment, and I am a convert to trad Catholicism as of 5 years ago. These questions have something to do with the future of my soul and hence I try to get ideas off experienced trad catholics to guide me. There is no point in me seeking advice from secular sources which were all I have experience of, because they wont factor my religion into the equation. This topic was to get ideas. You say couples who are poor have problems with kids, that's all I needed to know.

Don't let Greg dissuade you from starting a family TCat. He likes to degrade Christians.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:27:09 AM »

Quote from: TCat

Hmm. I see what youre sayin ggreg, but just don't underestimate how nieve and underprepared people are these days without solid Catholic experience behind them. I have little experience of exposure to a Catholic environment, and I am a convert to trad Catholicism as of 5 years ago. These questions have something to do with the future of my soul and hence I try to get ideas off experienced trad catholics to guide me. There is no point in me seeking advice from secular sources which were all I have experience of, because they wont factor my religion into the equation. This topic was to get ideas. You say couples who are poor have problems with kids, that's all I needed to know.

He's talking about the UK. Over 70% of women between 25-29 are unmarried there. In India it's close to 5%. The difference is that people in India value marriage and their traditions, those in the UK do not. It's a place totally unsuited for marriage and family life for those who aren't well off.

The US is a large country with lots of wide open spaces, lots of places far from overpriced housing markets, so many of the constraints that exist in Britain don't exist here to nearly the same degree.

eddiearent · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:31:33 AM »

I think it's all in God's hands, go for it. I can't find anyone to marry, it's kind of a bummer.

ggreg · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:40:32 AM »

Look, life is a lottery. There are no right and wrong answers. I knew a Trad doctor, who worked hard had a young family and fell asleep at the wheel while doing house calls and died. His wife was left a widow at your age with three young kids. Somehow she struggled through but they were poorer than church mice.

Someone probably knows a story of a couple that got married on welfare and ended up earning millions. I've never heard of one, but they probably exist if you look hard enough. I am pretty sure they were well underway at 28 though.

The fact is that being married requires money. Secular people today are struggling and cutting their expenditure to the bone to keep up with mortgage payments and these are sometimes homes where both parents work. Given that Catholics are competing with them in terms of rent, house buying, energy costs, food costs and all other costs of living, it stands to simple reason that you have to have a certain amount of money to get the basics of life. It then just becomes a discussion on what constitutes "the basics".

Of course you could be lucky enough to find a saint who is happy to live in on rice and beans and gets all the joy she needs from attending mass. But they are very rare. Most Trads marry a woman who likes a tidy house, some mod cons like washing machines and dishwashers and a vacation with her children every few years. Generally, when women go to a wedding they want a new hat and sometimes a dress. That is the way women are. They like clothes and shoes. Even the thrifty ones will buy some stuff.

Plus children want stuff too.

It's possible to entertain your children for example without ever spending any money. But it is pretty dull for them. Occasionally they DO want to go to a theme park and the cost of a day out like that is at least $200 for a large family even with coupons. If you make them grow up as poor as the Waltons then don't be too surprised if they react against that poor upbringing when they are older. Some of the most materialistic people I know, who sacrifice their life for material wealth are people with a chip on their shoulder because they grew up relatively poor.

Tiffany · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:52:43 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

Look, life is a lottery. There are no right and wrong answers. I knew a Trad doctor, who worked hard had a young family and fell asleep at the wheel while doing house calls and died. His wife was left a widow at your age with three young kids. Somehow she struggled through but they were poorer than church mice.

Someone probably knows a story of a couple that got married on welfare and ended up earning millions. I've never heard of one, but they probably exist if you look hard enough. I am pretty sure they were well underway at 28 though.

The fact is that being married requires money. Secular people today are struggling and cutting their expenditure to the bone to keep up with mortgage payments and these are sometimes homes where both parents work. Given that Catholics are competing with them in terms of rent, house buying, energy costs, food costs and all other costs of living, it stands to simple reason that you have to have a certain amount of money to get the basics of life. It then just becomes a discussion on what constitutes "the basics".

Of course you could be lucky enough to find a saint who is happy to live in on rice and beans and gets all the joy she needs from attending mass. But they are very rare. Most Trads marry a woman who likes a tidy house, some mod cons like washing machines and dishwashers and a vacation with her children every few years. Generally, when women go to a wedding they want a new hat and sometimes a dress. That is the way women are. They like clothes and shoes. Even the thrifty ones will buy some stuff.

Plus children want stuff too.

It's possible to entertain your children for example without ever spending any money. But it is pretty dull for them. Occasionally they DO want to go to a theme park and the cost of a day out like that is at least $200 for a large family even with coupons. If you make them grow up as poor as the Waltons then don't be too surprised if they react against that poor upbringing when they are older. Some of the most materialistic people I know, who sacrifice their life for material wealth are people with a chip on their shoulder because they grew up relatively poor.

It's not being poor that gives people a chip on their shoulder. It's a home without love including proper correction, justice, etc. Men of all incomes who grew up poor with a good mother respect poor mothers and are very empathetic in my experience.

Tiffany · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:56:04 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

Of course you could be lucky enough to find a saint who is happy to live in on rice and beans and gets all the joy she needs from attending mass. But they are very rare. Most Trads marry a woman who likes a tidy house, some mod cons like washing machines and dishwashers and a vacation with her children every few years. Generally, when women go to a wedding they want a new hat and sometimes a dress. That is the way women are. They like clothes and shoes. Even the thrifty ones will buy some stuff.

Plus children want stuff too.

It's possible to entertain your children for example without ever spending any money. But it is pretty dull for them. Occasionally they DO want to go to a theme park and the cost of a day out like that is at least $200 for a large family even with coupons. If you make them grow up as poor as the Waltons then don't be too surprised if they react against that poor upbringing when they are older. Some of the most materialistic people I know, who sacrifice their life for material wealth are people with a chip on their shoulder because they grew up relatively poor.

More degrading towards families living a simple life. Poor trad families who survive on minimum wage don't know their children need shoes. Shame on you Greg and your snide remarks.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2013, 10:59:47 AM »

Quote from: Tiffany

More degrading towards families living a simple life. Poor trad families who survive on minimum wage don't know their children need shoes. Shame on you Greg and your snide remarks.

He just said because there need to be trad doctors, that $50,000 isn't enough money to have a family.

The implications of that are staggering as to his attitude regarding the typical trad family.

When he talks about a homeschooling, gardening, welfare lifestyle, what kind of people do you think he's talking about Matthew?

I'm guessing those people in Britain have pretty nice gardens, too.

Mabel · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2013, 11:33:13 AM »

If you are called to the married state, just go for it. As long as you and your wife are of one heart and mind regarding being open to children and the Catholic Faith, you will never fail. Poverty is relative. A man is truly improvised when he denies himself one of God's greatest gifts, which is children. I know large, low-income Catholic families, and God provides for their every need. Better yet, they have more joy and faith than do miserable people who frustrate God's plan for houses, cars, new clothing, college for all children, and vacations.

At Christmas, I was at a party and a relative stated that they would have had more children if college wasn't so expensive. It showed what they thought of us, we'll never be able to pay our kid's way, yet we are open to all blessings. That man is the poor man and I feel so bad for him.

As for what was said before, in times past the Church defended the rights of the working man and was a champion of just wages. We don't have that anymore. We don't have religious institutions to help the poor or to sponsor families in need. The best thing we can do if we need help is to take help from the government. The government can inadvertently rebuild the Church to a small degree by allowing Catholic families to survive. It isn't preferred to live this way but I'd much rather have my taxes go to support a Catholic family of nine than a plethora of other stupid agendas.

Besides all, that families are affordable, you just have to learn to be resourceful and frugal.

Cantarella · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »

If you are called to enter into the married state go for it! and do not keep yourself from having children. They are truly a blessing from Our Lord. With hard work and determination, you can provide for your family.

"The most serious thing in life is sin. Food, drink, and gold are just materials to keep us alive, means whereby we work out our eternal destiny. They exist for us. When we begin to exist for them and become gluttons and misers, we sin".

Matto · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2013, 12:44:14 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say it was better to stay single if you are capable of it.