Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: solitary Man on November 30, 2023, 08:30:43 PM
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ok I agree that siblings should help their parents with their children, but I'm against them raising or spending most of the time, I'll list the reasons!
1 This will tire you and make your youth tiring and frustrating
2 possible resentment towards parents and siblings
3 Will Make Him Resent Having Children
4 there were cases of people who raised their siblings and were traumatized and did not want to have any more children
So yes, I'm in favor of siblings helping their parents, but it shouldn't be a burden for them.
(You can excommunicate me now!)
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I totally agree. There was in the news a story about a traditional catholic boy that was setup by an undercover FBI agent. He had been tasked with caring for an elderly grandmother all by himself. If this burden had not been placed on him more than likely he would have never gone through the trauma with the FBI. Although daughters are better suited for child care I have seen large families where the older daughters were tasked with caring for younger siblings. They delayed their own marriages because they were not anxious to start families of their own. But in many cases this just can't be helped. Children are obligated to help their parents.
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You could say the same thing about teaching boys how to work. Of course they're not going to like it. But hopefully they'll get used to working, so it becomes less than a huge deal, and it won't be an issue.
But you can't change human nature. Everyone, male or female, would rather kick back with some passive entertainment than do real work.
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Well instead of changing diapers or babysitting, maybe they could get a head start on cooking lunch/dinner (peeling/cutting vegetables)? Or run errands? And they'd be able to learn life skills instead of struggling with how to do them as an adult. I admit, I still need to improve on my cooking skills and I don't have alot of time these days with a baby. With all this technology these days, chores aren't as time-consuming compared to back then. As well as ordering essentials online and grocery pick-ups.
And it's a different story if you take advantage of the older kids so that you can go out all the time and have your "me" time.
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ok I agree that siblings should help their parents with their children, but I'm against them raising or spending most of the time, I'll list the reasons!
1 This will tire you and make your youth tiring and frustrating
2 possible resentment towards parents and siblings
3 Will Make Him Resent Having Children
4 there were cases of people who raised their siblings and were traumatized and did not want to have any more children
So yes, I'm in favor of siblings helping their parents, but it shouldn't be a burden for them.
(You can excommunicate me now!)
Do you have your own experience in mind solitary Man, or is this a hypothetical question?
An extremely modern and unnatural perspective. What greater gift can you give a child than a younger brother or sister. Why would a child resent having to spent time helping their mother with a younger brother or sister.
Today children are raised to expect everything and to give nothing. Love in the family is a rarity for many in this affluent materialistic society where children are seen of little value. It is uncommon to be taught responsibility and care for others.
How many saints were raised by a sibling? You might be surprised. Was St Therese of the Child Jesús a burden and a cause of resentment to her big sisters? She is the first one who comes to mind.
Better for a child to be cared for by a sibling than sent to a day care as is done in the so-called civilised word.
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I have no daughter so I was forced to depend on my oldest son to help me when I had babies to take care of. He changed diapers and fed them. He was a great help to me and he's very good with young children now.
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My apostate parents only had 2 children, so my first and only exposure to babies and children was when I started having them. After 5 I still struggle with the noise/tantrums/mess. Our oldest helps out quite a bit, even if its just holding a crying baby for a few minutes so we can have free hands. I think it is good for them, but it is important not to burden them with tasks that are above them, or give them tasks just because you don't want to do them. In our house there is never a shortage of work to be done and everyone needs to help out in any way they can. I have seen a very immature 9 year old boy "watching" a 1 year old in the cry room at Mass while the mother sits in the pew, which I do not think is appropriate.
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You could say the same thing about teaching boys how to work. Of course they're not going to like it. But hopefully they'll get used to working, so it becomes less than a huge deal, and it won't be an issue.
But you can't change human nature. Everyone, male or female, would rather kick back with some passive entertainment than do real work.
I explained it very well, don't accuse me of saying to leave them doing nothing! I didn't say they wouldn't do anything but putting in all the work of taking care of their siblings isn't going to do them much good! And yes, I'm in favor of helping them work, whether it's a job or at home, but it's important that they have free time
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1 This will tire you and make your youth tiring and frustrating
2 possible resentment towards parents and siblings
3 Will Make Him Resent Having Children
4 there were cases of people who raised their siblings and were traumatized and did not want to have any more children
I agree with you, generally, on points 1 and 2. It's not the siblings responsibility to raise their younger siblings. But...it is their responsibility to help out the family. It can be a fine line.
Points 3 and 4 are connected, in that, you relate stories where siblings didn't want to have children after their family situations. I would say this is God's will, because raising children isn't easy and for a teenager to realize this isn't their life's calling, at such a young age, is a blessing. On the other hand, some of this "trauma" might be temporary and the desire to have children may return later, once the young adult is able to move out of the house, and have some independence.
There's also plenty of opposite cases, (which is the more common situation in Trad families, in my experience), that older siblings become very good with children, and this prepares them for their vocation of marriage.
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Do you have your own experience in mind solitary Man, or is this a hypothetical question?
An extremely modern and unnatural perspective. What greater gift can you give a child than a younger brother or sister. Why would a child resent having to spent time helping their mother with a younger brother or sister.
Today children are raised to expect everything and to give nothing. Love in the family is a rarity for many in this affluent materialistic society where children are seen of little value. It is uncommon to be taught responsibility and care for others.
How many saints were raised by a sibling? You might be surprised. Was St Therese of the Child Jesús a burden and a cause of resentment to her big sisters? She is the first one who comes to mind.
Better for a child to be cared for by a sibling than sent to a day care as is done in the so-called civilised word.
I will respond to your objections
1 I am of Italian descent, yes, I have experience
I met both my own family, as well as other people and friends
2 modern perspective? I know people aged 70 who said it was very difficult to take care of their siblings, isn't it natural? Just ask and see what people say! About the present, I met people who loved their brothers very much, but admitted that it was very tiring to take care of them, they often took care of them all alone! what child would be resentful, I'm sorry to say that you are a person who doesn't know how to read well, donating your time and helping your parents, it's a virtue, but imagine, not being able to rest and barely being able to study because of this task because You are the main responsible ! That's why these are the cases I mentioned!
3 I partly agree with you, but family love also comes from the support of parents and I never said they shouldn't help and again you accuse me of being a heretic !because I don't read well or because you want to accuse me of being a heretic and a modernist for the pleasure of your own ego!
4 saints, in fact, however, remember that parents often had to work and in the case of Saint Therese, there were several older sisters taking care of one, the cases I mentioned were 1 or 2 taking care of several alone and remember- If the church says that the ideal is for parents to raise!
Now I ask you, do you have experience?
Do you live in a Catholic bubble?
Furthermore, you have a very unempathetic and romantic view of the world!
conclusion
I never said that brothers shouldn't help
Children must help their parents and parents must teach their children the virtue of work, both at work and at home.
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I totally agree. There was in the news a story about a traditional catholic boy that was setup by an undercover FBI agent. He had been tasked with caring for an elderly grandmother all by himself. If this burden had not been placed on him more than likely he would have never gone through the trauma with the FBI. Although daughters are better suited for child care I have seen large families where the older daughters were tasked with caring for younger siblings. They delayed their own marriages because they were not anxious to start families of their own. But in many cases this just can't be helped. Children are obligated to help their parents.
I completely agree with you! And yes, there are cases where parents work and it is not possible, but I talk about cases where it is possible
In fact, I am in favor of teaching the virtues of work and homemaking to children, however it is important (if possible for them to have their rest)
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I completely agree with you! And yes, there are cases where parents work and it is not possible, but I talk about cases where it is possible
In fact, I am in favor of teaching the virtues of work and homemaking to children, however it is important (if possible for them to have their rest)
Being the mother of 3 sons I can assure you the greater threat is for children to turn out to be lazy. The case of "overworked"
children must be exceedingly rare. 2 of my adult sons live with me and despite the fact that I have ample income of my own I require them to pay rent to live here. So they are forced to work. Yes they should have Sunday as a day of rest.
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I will respond to your objections
1 I am of Italian descent, yes, I have experience
I met both my own family, as well as other people and friends
2 modern perspective? I know people aged 70 who said it was very difficult to take care of their siblings, isn't it natural? Just ask and see what people say! About the present, I met people who loved their brothers very much, but admitted that it was very tiring to take care of them, they often took care of them all alone! what child would be resentful, I'm sorry to say that you are a person who doesn't know how to read well, donating your time and helping your parents, it's a virtue, but imagine, not being able to rest and barely being able to study because of this task because You are the main responsible ! That's why these are the cases I mentioned!
3 I partly agree with you, but family love also comes from the support of parents and I never said they shouldn't help and again you accuse me of being a heretic !because I don't read well or because you want to accuse me of being a heretic and a modernist for the pleasure of your own ego!
4 saints, in fact, however, remember that parents often had to work and in the case of Saint Therese, there were several older sisters taking care of one, the cases I mentioned were 1 or 2 taking care of several alone and remember- If the church says that the ideal is for parents to raise!
Now I ask you, do you have experience?
Do you live in a Catholic bubble?
Furthermore, you have a very unempathetic and romantic view of the world!
conclusion
I never said that brothers shouldn't help
Children must help their parents and parents must teach their children the virtue of work, both at work and at home.
:confused:
In the Italian language is the correct term for a person that acts as you are acting, "stronzo"?
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There's also plenty of opposite cases, (which is the more common situation in Trad families, in my experience), that older siblings become very good with children, and this prepares them for their vocation of marriage.
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This.
This is the norm in traditional Catholic families. The more children a family has, the better they turn out. The older children help raise the younger ones, and are prepared for life themselves, as well as exercised in the virtues of self-sacrifice and devotion to duty. They also learn that it is important to help others in life, and that they are not the center of the universe.
People who come from families with few children learn the opposite of this.
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People who come from families with few children learn the opposite of this.
This is absolutely true. Even well-meaning only children are inherently self-centered and thoughtless of others.
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That last post really hit home -- the idea that being in (and helping out in) a large family teaches kids to work, to help others (be selfless) and NOT be narcissistic ("the whole world revolves around you").
It's difficult to NOT accidentally teach that to your kids, when you only have 1 or 2. After all, Mom and Dad do everything to make life smooth and easy for those 1 or 2 kids, right?
But in a large family, it's so much more realistic, and a better preparation for REAL life. You have to work. You have to give and help others. And yes, the world DOESN'T revolve around you, your feelings, etc.
That's good for both men and women. Men might otherwise lose themselves in video games, hobbies, etc. and women fall into narcissism or thinking their feelings are the most important thing, when they get TOO MUCH time & attention.
It's a fine line.
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I would like to point out something else --
The concept that a proper level of "normal work" in daily life is relative and arbitrary. In a rich household, they might consider making their own coffee "slave labor". In the olden days, people had to work hard for everything. Cooking meals was a full time job, with butchering, preparing, cooking from scratch, grinding, mixing, post-meal clean up, you name it. Today we have it SO easy.
If you're used to doing 2 hours of chores a day, that will be your normal.
If you're used to doing 2 MINUTES of chores, THAT will be your normal, and everything above that will FEEL LIKE hard slavery.
Which one would prepare a girl better for a future career as a housewife and mother?
Perception is reality, to a certain degree. Not objectively speaking, but TO THE PERSON what you feel or perceive IS your reality.
Yes you don't want to break them, but you want to raise them with a reasonable standard of working hard, so they don't end up lazy.
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That last post really hit home -- the idea that being in (and helping out in) a large family teaches kids to work, to help others (be selfless) and NOT be narcissistic ("the whole world revolves around you").
It's difficult to NOT accidentally teach that to your kids, when you only have 1 or 2. After all, Mom and Dad do everything to make life smooth and easy for those 1 or 2 kids, right?
But in a large family, it's so much more realistic, and a better preparation for REAL life. You have to work. You have to give and help others. And yes, the world DOESN'T revolve around you, your feelings, etc.
That's good for both men and women. Men might otherwise lose themselves in video games, hobbies, etc. and women fall into narcissism or thinking their feelings are the most important thing, when they get TOO MUCH time & attention.
It's a fine line.
Excellent points. There is no worse misery than growing up in a family where the mother's feelings are the dominant force of the household. You rightly point it out as a form of narcissism.
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I agree with you, generally, on points 1 and 2. It's not the siblings responsibility to raise their younger siblings. But...it is their responsibility to help out the family. It can be a fine line.
Points 3 and 4 are connected, in that, you relate stories where siblings didn't want to have children after their family situations. I would say this is God's will, because raising children isn't easy and for a teenager to realize this isn't their life's calling, at such a young age, is a blessing. On the other hand, some of this "trauma" might be temporary and the desire to have children may return later, once the young adult is able to move out of the house, and have some independence.
There's also plenty of opposite cases, (which is the more common situation in Trad families, in my experience), that older siblings become very good with children, and this prepares them for their vocation of marriage.
This ^^^
I understand and agree with the OP that parents shouldn't put all of their responsibilities off on their children and completely walk away and constantly leave their children in charge without a good reason.
However, I don't think most traditional Catholic parents would feel comfortable being so hands off...
And if a parent wasn't taking charge of their children and put another child in charge I think that he should accept the responsibility out of obedience and respect towards his parents.
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My grandfather suffered a devastating illness and was bedridden. My grandmother had to give up the farm and go to work. My mother essentially raised her younger brothers. By the time I was born she'd already raised five kids and didn't want anymore after me.
Helping out is one thing but don't turn your oldest into a household drudge unless there is truly no other way.
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However, I don't think most traditional Catholic parents would feel comfortable being so hands off...
Some of the worst examples of parental failure to supervise their own children I have witnessed happened at traditional Catholic gatherings. Our group was almost kicked off the property because of the unruly children running around.
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Some of the worst examples of parental failure to supervise their own children I have witnessed happened at traditional Catholic gatherings. Our group was almost kicked off the property because of the unruly children running around.
I have witnessed this too, and it is baffling to me! Usually it’s a gathering after Mass, where adults just want to socialize and their kids are running crazy.
I was involved in a homeschool co-op in our area for a short time. They would set up different activities and tours of local places. I quit going because of how disrespectful the kids were. The people presenting, you could tell, were utterly frustrated with the situation. Nobody was paying attention, kids were goofing around and moms were off chit chatting and spending some “me time”. I was mortified and just couldn’t be a part of that.
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If one doesn’t go overboard in expectations of the eldest children, it can be such a wonderful training ground for adult life, especially for girls.
My eldest is 7 and she delights in helping to take care of her younger sisters. We are expecting a baby in April and she is just chomping at the bit to change diapers, rock for naps and to help with anything baby related.
I realize that some mothers are very burdened with a large amount of children and the outward appearance of joy is hard to come by, especially if their husband is rarely around or if they are having to chip in to make money for the family, or if her husband has died or is disabled. But aside from that, I think mothers need to take special care to serve their families with joy, to sacrifice ourselves happily and to be a good role model for our children. If a mother loves her role as homemaker and goes about it cheerfully, girls will want to be like their mom and will enjoy doing what she does. If a mother feels constant drudgery, a child will see that burden upon their mother whom they love and conclude that the care of children is a negative burden. Therefore, even if it is hard, even if we mothers are tired and a bit discouraged, we should give it to our Lord, gain strength in his good and holy will, and move forward cheerfully. What wonderful future wives and mothers she will produce!
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This.
This is the norm in traditional Catholic families. The more children a family has, the better they turn out. The older children help raise the younger ones, and are prepared for life themselves, as well as exercised in the virtues of self-sacrifice and devotion to duty. They also learn that it is important to help others in life, and that they are not the center of the universe.
People who come from families with few children learn the opposite of this.
This is an interesting discussion. Life is not easy, no matter how many children. We all try to do the best we can, but the big families are heroic in self sacrifice and generosity.
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Some of the worst examples of parental failure to supervise their own children I have witnessed happened at traditional Catholic gatherings. Our group was almost kicked off the property because of the unruly children running around.
That is terrible! 😣
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I have witnessed this too, and it is baffling to me! Usually it’s a gathering after Mass, where adults just want to socialize and their kids are running crazy.
I was involved in a homeschool co-op in our area for a short time. They would set up different activities and tours of local places. I quit going because of how disrespectful the kids were. The people presenting, you could tell, were utterly frustrated with the situation. Nobody was paying attention, kids were goofing around and moms were off chit chatting and spending some “me time”. I was mortified and just couldn’t be a part of that.
I can understand that frustration.
I guess our chapel is smaller because I definitely haven't noticed this happening much.
It is a good reminder to be more self-aware of one's children when in public.
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If one doesn’t go overboard in expectations of the eldest children, it can be such a wonderful training ground for adult life, especially for girls.
My eldest is 7 and she delights in helping to take care of her younger sisters. We are expecting a baby in April and she is just chomping at the bit to change diapers, rock for naps and to help with anything baby related.
I realize that some mothers are very burdened with a large amount of children and the outward appearance of joy is hard to come by, especially if their husband is rarely around or if they are having to chip in to make money for the family, or if her husband has died or is disabled. But aside from that, I think mothers need to take special care to serve their families with joy, to sacrifice ourselves happily and to be a good role model for our children. If a mother loves her role as homemaker and goes about it cheerfully, girls will want to be like their mom and will enjoy doing what she does. If a mother feels constant drudgery, a child will see that burden upon their mother whom they love and conclude that the care of children is a negative burden. Therefore, even if it is hard, even if we mothers are tired and a bit discouraged, we should give it to our Lord, gain strength in his good and holy will, and move forward cheerfully. What wonderful future wives and mothers she will produce!
Well said! I definitely need to work on being more cheerful when I am overwhelmed with the children and duties of keeping house. 😅