Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions  (Read 4526 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John Grace

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5521
  • Reputation: +121/-6
  • Gender: Male
Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
« on: February 22, 2013, 07:43:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • http://spuc-director.blogspot.ie/2013/01/abortion-includes-d-and-deliberate-pre.html?spref=fb
    Quote
    THURSDAY, 24 JANUARY 2013

    Abortion includes D&Cs and deliberate pre-viability inductions

    The Irish pro-life movement is currently fighting an unprecedented threat to Ireland’s pro-life laws. In this very dangerous situation, it is important for pro-life commentators to avoid explicitly defending what is in fact abortion – even as a means of preventing much more widespread abortion. Thus deliberate pre-viability inductions, for example, should not defended, least of all by Catholics, as they are squarely contrary to the teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church - see my blogs:
    Savita Halappanavar death tragic but abortion doesn’t save women’s lives
    Induced delivery of non-viable children is neither ethical nor Catholic
    Pius XII's teaching on double-effect did not allow induced delivery of non-viable children
    Some Irish pro-life commentators (see examples further below) have defended, not just legitimate treatments that target the woman’s own body (like a damaged womb or fallopian tube) but deliberate pre-viability removals and even D&Cs (dilation and currettage). These latter procedures specifically target the unborn baby with its own living tissues. Their comments are partly inspired by the Irish Medical Council's guidance (see section 21.4 of Guide to Professional Conduct and Ethics for Registered Medical Practitioners)

    There is a real danger that such statements will result in people in Ireland being misled into explicitly endorsing defective proposals regarding abortion. There is massive opposition to changing Ireland’s abortion law; however, some Irish pro-lifers have already indicated possible support for legislation, guidelines or clarification of the law. Instead, the Irish people need to keep on saying loud and clear to their elected representatives: leave our pro-life laws alone!

    Here are some examples of the worrying statements I mention above:

    Dr Eoghan de Faoite, representing Youth Defence in a hearing of the Oireachtas (Irish Parliament), said:
    "Irish obstetricians and other specialists will always intervene to save the life of a mother when she has a life-threatening complication of pregnancy. This practice of intervening, which includes premature delivery of the baby even when the baby has little of no chance of surviving, is permitted in Ireland today. It is permitted under Irish law and by the Medical Council's ethical guidelines and is within pro-life principles."

    Greg Daly, an Irish Catholic blogger, wrote:
    "As far as I can see, Galway University Hospital would have been fully within its legal rights to have induced a preterm delivery -- or foetal evacuation -- in an attempt to save both mother and child. Indeed, not merely would it have been within its rights to do so, doing so would have been normal medical practice.

    This is exactly the sort of thing that Dr Berry Kiely talked about back on what was an uncommonly good Vincent Browne show back in the Spring -- you induce a preterm delivery, thus saving the mother, and you do everything you can to try to save the child. You almost certainly fail, but you try."
    Catholic Comment, the Irish version of Catholic Voices (UK), issued a statement saying:
    "[F]or the hospital to have induced labour with the intention of saving Savita would have been in accord both with Irish law, normal Irish medical practice, and with Catholic teaching."

    And as I blogged in December Mary Kenny, outgoing Master of the Catholic Writers' Guild, wrote:
    "In truth, we do not know whether a termination of her pregnancy would have saved Mrs Halappanavar’s life, but there certainly has been pressure – rightly – to clarify the situation legally so that should it arise again, doctors may perform an abortion."

    David Quinn, director of the Iona Institute, wrote in November:
    “When a woman is miscarrying, there are three normal courses of action. The usual one is to let nature take its course. If nature is not taking its course quickly enough and the life of the mother is being endangered as a result of blood loss and the possibility of infection, then there are two other possible courses of action. The first is to induce labour and the second is to perform a D & C which essentially evacuates the contents of the womb, including the foetus. Why isn’t either of these two courses of action tantamount to abortion? The reason is that the intention is not to kill the baby.”


    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #1 on: February 22, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On the Catholic Political Network Facebook page, Dr Sean O Domhnaill of the Life Institute disagree. For one married via the SSPX his comments are strange. Many Traditional Catholics have written to the Life Institute. Dr Eoghan de Faoite was raised via the Traditional Mass also (SSPX)

    Let us be cautious in taking the 'saving life of the mother' line of thought.


    Quote
    Seánie Ó Domhnaill Could not agree less. This 1895 doctrine is outdated and could not have foreseen the technological developments in medicine. It is wrong to let two people die when one can be saved and the other cannot! Enough of this dangerous moralising! Shame on those who propagate it!



    Offline Telesphorus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12713
    • Reputation: +22/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 08:53:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Being associated with the SSPX no longer has any concrete connection to the Catholic Faith.  It's just a club now, and that's why they want to join Rome.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 09:24:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Being associated with the SSPX no longer has any concrete connection to the Catholic Faith.  It's just a club now, and that's why they want to join Rome.


    It's not a poor reflection on the SSPX but more so  errors have crept in to Traditional  chapels etc etc. You could have a very solid priest faithful to the SSPX of the Archbishop yet have laity, who have the mindset of 2+2=5.

    There is clear doctrine and teaching as regards abortion. It can't change nor can it be "outdated" to use the term mentioned by Dr Sean O Domhnaill.

    For those with the Vatican II, the Council is good mindset, there is a danger of sliding.  

    Perhaps we had better shut up and stop "moralising"? This 'save the life of the woman' approach is very dangerous.

    Quote
    Enough of this dangerous moralising! Shame on those who propagate it!

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 09:29:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A few Trad Caths or perhaps "Rad Trads" circulated some little snippets on Facebook including this.In a media storm, one should never lose ground and Catholics should stay clear of the 'save life of mother" debate. Catholic teaching is clear on abortion.

    Quote
    Via Facebook
    "According to Fr Celestine Bittle, abortion is defined as ‘the expulsion of a living fetus from the mother’s womb before the fetus is viable.’
    He defines ‘indirect abortion’ as ‘an abortion which is a secondary effect of an otherwise licit action which is the primary object of the intention.’

    For the principle of ‘double effect’ to be invoked it is necessary, according to Fr Bittle, that a number of conditions are met. The first of these is that ‘The principle action must in itself be a morally good or indifferent act.’

    Inducing an abortion through expelling a non-viable foetus is not morally good or indifferent. It is condemning it to certain death.

    Father Bittle continues; ‘Intentional abortion, i.e., the deliberately induced expulsion of a living fetus before it has become viable, is always grievously immoral, even when done to save the life of the mother.’


    Offline Telesphorus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12713
    • Reputation: +22/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 09:33:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: John Grace
    It's not a poor reflection on the SSPX but more so  errors have crept in to Traditional  chapels etc etc. You could have a very solid priest faithful to the SSPX of the Archbishop yet have laity, who have the mindset of 2+2=5.


    Yes, you can, but the reality is that the neo-SSPX is liberal.  They are going to surrender everything, in time.  In a couple decades they will conform completely to an anti-Christ culture.  The neo-SSPX has become integrated with the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic system.  That's why people associated with them are unafraid to make a mockery of the Catholic Faith, praise Judaism, defend induced abortion, defend miniskirts, etc.



    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 09:33:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On Thought and Action we reblogged  the Smeaton article  last year.

    http://thoughtactioneire.blogspot.ie/2012/11/induced-delivery-of-non-viable-children.html
    Quote
    An article here from John Smeaton. It should be remembered that any and all direct and deliberate action to end the life of a child even “if the mother’s life be at risk” constitutes abortion.

    http://spuc-director.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/induced-delivery-of-non-viable-children.html

    In the wake of the tragic death of Savita Halappanar, various pro-life and Catholic commentators have been claiming that inducing delivery of Savita's child would have an appropriate course of action. They claim that an induction does not constitute abortion and is standard medical practice in Ireland.
    These commentators are wrong. In its 2009 "Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services", the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) teaches [my emphases inbold]:

    "45. Abortion (that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus) is never permitted. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion..."
    ....
    "49. For a proportionate reason, labor may be induced after the fetus is viable."

    Savita was in the 17th week of pregnancy. There is no scientific evidence that unborn children are capable of surviving outside the womb at such a young age. If the doctor in Savita's case had agreed to induce her child,  he would have been performing an abortion. The principle of double-effect would not have justified inducing Savita because:

    the termination of pregnancy before viability (which would certainly have killed the child) would have been directly intended, and would not have been (as double-effect requires) an indirect and unintended effect

    the sole immediate effect of the inducing would have been the termination of pregnancy before viability, thus killing the child

    there are alternative ways of managing these highly distressing cases (see my blog on the International Symposium on Maternal Health held in Dublin in September).

    The intrinsic wrongness of inducing babies before viability has been taught clearly by the Catholic Church. In the late 19th century a doctor who practised premature delivery of non-viable children in the belief that it could save mothers' lives asked the Holy Office (now called the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) if his practice was licit. The Holy Office replied* in 1895:

    "In the negative, according to other decrees [of the Holy Office]".

    This reply of the Holy Office was approved the next day by Pope Leo XIII himself. One of those "other decrees" (1889) had declared as not "licit":

    "every surgical operation that directly kills the fetus".

    Another papally-approved reply by the Holy Office in 1898 referred to the 1895 reply above (condemning premature delivery of non-viable children) as a

    "decree...on the illicitness of abortion".

    The Church was thus making clear that premature delivery of non-viable children is abortion.
    In 1902 another reply of the Holy Office decreed that it was not permitted to extract from the womb an unborn child earlier than six months after conception (at that time, the point of viability), explaining that:

    "[W]ith respect to time...no accleration of the birth is licit, unless it be performed at the time and according to the methods by which in the ordinary course of events the life of the mother and that of the fetus are considered."

    In other words, premature delivery of non-viable children violates their right to life. Pro-life and Catholic commentators should take care not to deny that truth nor promote such inducing as an ethical response to medical emergencies.
    *See "The Sources of Catholic Dogma", Henry Denzinger, Loreto Publications, 1955, section 1889 onwards.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 09:55:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • One would think/assume you are preaching to the converted when discussing abortion with fellow Catholics.


    Any and all direct and deliberate action to end the life of a child even “if the mother’s life be at risk” constitutes abortion. Abortion is always the intentional taking of human life.

    I remember being branded one of those "right wing" Catholics when I told a man I am opposed to contraception.

    Many pro-lifers rarely if ever address contraception.


    Offline Telesphorus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12713
    • Reputation: +22/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 09:59:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: John Grace
    One would think/assume you are preaching to the converted when discussing abortion with fellow Catholics.


    You could assume that about almost any Catholic issue, but the reality is that the liberals in this culture without integrity will turn on almost any issue, and tell people what they want to hear, claiming to be Catholic, or anything else, but believing in nothing.  Subversion of the leadership of conservatives has been fatal to conservatism.

    This is why I say the people connected to the SSPX, in 30 more years or so, will almost all be fully integrated with the anti-Christ system that's developing.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 10:06:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: John Grace
    One would think/assume you are preaching to the converted when discussing abortion with fellow Catholics.


    You could assume that about almost any Catholic issue, but the reality is that the liberals in this culture without integrity will turn on almost any issue, and tell people what they want to hear, claiming to be Catholic, or anything else, but believing in nothing.  Subversion of the leadership of conservatives has been fatal to conservatism.

    This is why I say the people connected to the SSPX, in 30 more years or so, will almost all be fully integrated with the anti-Christ system that's developing.


    I should have stated fellow Traditional Catholics. A few years ago there was a debate about abortion at an SSPX youth meeting. Some youth seemed to have a Vatican II understanding of church teaching.

    It's understandable and expected in wider Catholic circles.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 10:15:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Subversion of the leadership of conservatives has been fatal to conservatism.


    The original article I posted mentioned David Quinn, a friend of Israel.His father was also a Zionist. The Iona Institute of which he is director is a conservative Catholic lobby group. Catholic Comment seems to be a similar conservative Catholic group also.


    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 08:47:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • https://www.facebook.com/YouthDefence
    Quote
    Alison Ní Raifeartaigh: Using the term abortion is just used to rise people up, these are terminations for when the mothers life is at risk. Why should you be able to tell a mother you must die and leave the rest of your children without you, again telling people what to do from the morals of a church that has raped and abused these very children.
    4 hours ago


    Quote
    Youth Defence Alison Ní Raifeartaigh, they most certainly are not. No pro-life person has a problem with interventions to save a mother's life, especially since in Ireland doctors do everything they can also to save the mother's life. See more here


    There are quite alot of 'pro-life' people who disagree with what YD are stating as regards saving life of the mother.

    Quote
    Una Ui Scolai Please stop bringing up the Church to hide behind support for legalised child-killing. The last time I checked I wasn't a priest

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 08:51:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's very good that somebody has posted the preamble of the 1937 Irish Constitution on the page I just made reference to in previous post.

    Quote
    In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

    We, the people of Éire,

    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

    Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

    And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

    Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 09:03:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And a nice selection of snippets reflecting the reality in Ireland. Most people are looking beyond left v right, beyond the party system and the sham that is parliamentary democracy. Very few believe power is wielded in parliament and that a vote every 4 or 5 years changes anything and a 'victory' is no victory at all.


    "We are on the precipice of what will be the greatest divisive issue since the cινιℓ ωαr and the penal times in Ireland. Legislation for abortion is leading us to the bloodiest of crimes - killing our own people - killing the future generations of Ireland and extinguishing the hope and peace of Irish people everywhere.

    Many voters will never be able to trust politicians ever again. Those working as nurses, doctors, counsellors, those in the health industry, support networks, family groups, teachers, civil servants, and many more in society will not be able to fully participate in carrying out the functions of their employment."

    "The sham of a Dail Committee hearing was nothing other than an agenda ridden talking shop."

    "The political model has failed, the economic model has failed, political leaders have failed. Not only has the country been abandoned to outside control that dictates economics, fiscal control, taxation and the wealth of Ireland's natural resources; but our political leaders neither recognise or include the dignity and value of the human person or what is best for the moral good. Why do they race to set aside the Irish people's Constitution?

    Ireland is on the cusp of being partitioned yet again and this time it is sought in the name of murder, the killing of the defenceless, most vulnerable and innocent of all – the unborn child, a real viable human being with its own identity, DNA and personality from the very millisecond of conception."

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +121/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Abortion includes DCs and deliberate pre-viability inductions
    « Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 12:04:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This topic was discussed last night with a relative, who visited me last evening. We need to hammer home correct Catholic ethics and doctrine in relation to abortion.