Author Topic: Aborted babies go to Heaven  (Read 6716 times)

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Offline Darcy

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Aborted babies go to Heaven
« on: November 15, 2011, 04:00:52 PM »
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  • Because an aborted baby is not baptized, it is believed that it cannot go to Heaven.
    What I am wondering is where Jesus says  "Unless a man be born again..." John 3:3

    An aborted baby has not been born so is there any argument, doctrines, biblical or ecclisiastical teaching that can support the above statement that aborted babies go to Heaven?

    Offline Alex

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 05:07:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Darcy
    Because an aborted baby is not baptized, it is believed that it cannot go to Heaven.
    What I am wondering is where Jesus says  "Unless a man be born again..." John 3:3

    An aborted baby has not been born so is there any argument, doctrines, biblical or ecclisiastical teaching that can support the above statement that aborted babies go to Heaven?


    To be born again doesn't refer to physical birth but to spritual birth. An unborn baby still has a soul. It has been conceived in sin (meaning that it has Adam's sin on its soul) so, inorder to be become a child of God, its soul must be cleansed through baptism.

    But maybe Jesus gives the soul of the unborn baby a chance to accept Him through baptism of desire, just as He saved the Holy Innocents. Which means that an unborn child could possibly go to Heaven. We don't know what the mercy of God will allow.


    Offline songbird

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 09:56:48 PM »
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  • It is true, aborted babies will not see the face of God.  But they do not go to hell. It is a place of a natural happiness called limbo. I don't know where it is written, but it is. Those who say an aborted baby has blood baptism, are spreading error.

    Offline TraceG

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 07:30:45 AM »
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  • I have the book My Catholic Faith and it confirms what Songbird says.  Those children have not been baptized but do not go to hell.  This limbo they would go to is a sort of a unknowing happy place.  

    Offline clare

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 09:07:06 AM »
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  • Limbo is part of Hell. The outskirts, as it were. (Limbo means border, or something like that.)

    The idea that unbaptised infants who die are given a chance to accept God is nice. But it means they may also reject Him. In which case they would go to the fiery part of Hell, rather than the outskirts which are more pleasant.

    I often wonder about miscarriages, and openness to life, in this context, though. If a good Catholic couple are open to life, and want to raise children for Heaven, but most of their conceptions miscarry, therefore their children go to Limbo... It just seems strange. Especially since, women may have many more miscarriages than they even know about, and life begins at conception.

    Why be open to life if such a lot, maybe most, of babies conceived end up in Limbo??


    Offline songbird

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 10:22:44 AM »
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  • Why be open to life?  What do you mean?

    Offline clare

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 01:40:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Why be open to life?  What do you mean?


    Perhaps that wasn't the best way of phrasing it.

    I'm just thinking, we're meant to be begetting children for Heaven. Yet, in the process women may have lots of mscarriages, that they may not even be aware of, and end up begetting even more children for Limbo.

    If Limbo is their destination, that is.

    I just find it puzzling.

    Offline sedetrad

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 01:56:22 PM »
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  • Maybe Limbo is actually what is best for them according to God's infinite mercy in that if they lived a "full" life, then they may have ended up in a much hotter part of hell. If abortion sent babies to heaven, then the devil most assuredly would not promote it. The abortion will send my baby to heaven, so I might as well abort my child logic could be used.


    Offline sedetrad

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 01:58:31 PM »
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  • Why let my baby suffer and starve in this cruel world, if I could just abort it and send it on wings to heaven?

    Offline shin

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 05:27:32 PM »
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  • Well with sufficient prayers for baptism of their child even in the case of miscarriage God can intervene.

    So for Christian parents, properly taught of the necessity of baptism, there is this hope.

    It would be a fallback existing alongside Limbo, rather than doing away with it as some would have done, which is frankly, against the writings of the saints and Revelations of Our Lord Himself.

    Generally however, they should be taught as in the paper here:

    http://saintsworks.net/Papers%20and%20Information.htm

    "How to Baptize in the Case of Miscarriage"

    Something which I read is supposed to be standard Catholic teaching for parents.

    Which is why I always hope that people will spread the information to other parents.

    From the Revelations of St. Bridget:

    'First question: Again he appeared on his ladder as before, saying: ”O Judge, I ask you: Why does one infant emerge alive from the mother's womb and obtain baptism, while another, having received a soul, dies in the mother's belly?”
    Answer to the first question. The Judge answered: ”Friend, your inquiries are not made out of love but are made through my permission. So I answer you through the likeness of words.

    You ask why one infant dies in the mother's belly while another emerges alive. There is a reason. All the strength of the child's body comes, of course, from the seed of its father and mother; however, if it is conceived without due strength, because of some weakness of its father or mother, it dies quickly. As a result of the negligence or carelessness of the parents as well as of my divine justice, many times it happens that what was joined together comes apart quickly.

    Yet a soul is not brought to the harshest punishment for this reason, however little time it had for giving life to the body, but, rather, it comes to the mercy that is known to me. Just as the sun shining into a house is not seen as it is in its beauty - only those who look into the sky see its rays - so too the souls of such children, though they do not see my face for lack of baptism, are nevertheless closer to my mercy than to punishment, but not in the same way as my elect.'

    And then Pope Sixtus V:

    'For who would not detest a crime as execrable as this — a crime whose consequence is that not just bodies, but — still worse! — even souls, are, as it were, cast away? The soul of the unborn infant bears the imprint of God's image! It is a soul for whose redemption Christ our Lord shed His precious blood, a soul capable of eternal blessedness and destined for the company of angels! Who, therefore, would not condemn and punish with the utmost severity the desecration committed by one who has excluded such a soul from the blessed vision of God? Such a one has done all he or she could possibly have done to prevent this soul from reaching the place prepared for it in heaven, and has deprived God of the service of this His own creature.'

    I think Clare your statement:

    "The idea that unbaptised infants who die are given a chance to accept God is nice. But it means they may also reject Him. In which case they would go to the fiery part of Hell, rather than the outskirts which are more pleasant."

    Is very strikingly and reminds me of some of what I have read in the past, but do not have sufficient information on.


    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 08:33:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: sedetrad
    Maybe Limbo is actually what is best for them according to God's infinite mercy in that if they lived a "full" life, then they may have ended up in a much hotter part of hell. If abortion sent babies to heaven, then the devil most assuredly would not promote it. The abortion will send my baby to heaven, so I might as well abort my child logic could be used.


    Maybe the Devil promotes abortion because he knows that those involved stand of good chance losing eternal salvation, not necessarily the aborted baby.

    I know that the traditional understanding has been that none of us deserve heaven.  If God denies some the beatific vision, He is in no way being unjust.  However, there never has been nor is there any official Roman Catholic doctrinal position or teaching on the existence of or state of limbo.  I like what the Catechism teaches on the subject of limbo.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church, Section 1261

    As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline Sigismund

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 12:14:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: sedetrad
    Maybe Limbo is actually what is best for them according to God's infinite mercy in that if they lived a "full" life, then they may have ended up in a much hotter part of hell. If abortion sent babies to heaven, then the devil most assuredly would not promote it. The abortion will send my baby to heaven, so I might as well abort my child logic could be used.


    I have always understood Limbo to be a pious theological opinion, not a dogma, and have generally not believed in it.  However, this is a really good argument for it, and I will have to rethink my position.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 12:45:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I have always understood Limbo to be a pious theological opinion, not a dogma, and have generally not believed in it.  However, this is a really good argument for it, and I will have to rethink my position.


    The dogma is that Baptism is necessary for salvation and that stain of original sin will condemn a soul.

    Limbo is the belief that God allows those only guilty of original sin to be in a state of natural happiness after death.  To disbelieve in it is to accept an outcome that might jeopardize faith in God's mercy and justice, that's why St. Thomas Aquinas supported it in opposition to the Augustinian position.  

    Offline shin

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 04:49:02 AM »
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  • I once set myself to gathering a good deal of quotes on the subject after listening to an Audio Sancto sermon on Limbo which basically condemned the ITC and its paper on the matter.

    Limbo is the lighter view, in many ways, historically. It is better than Hell proper.

    Here from my notes, I have not looked at these in awhile so do not recall much, I have some of the source citations second hand I think, but do not doubt them, fwif:

    'Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.'

    St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, 'Doctor of Grace'  (a letter to St. Jerome (no. 27))

    'The common teaching of the scholastic theologians is the within the earth there are four inner chambers: one for the damned, another for those being purged of sin, a third for those infants who have died without receiving Baptism, and a fourth which is now empty but once held those just men who died before the passion of Christ.'

    St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Doctor of the Church

    'It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished.'

    St. Gregory Nazanzien, Father and Doctor of the Church, [Orat., xl, 23]

    'If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants carried off by death before being baptized can obtain the remission of original sin."

    St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church 'Doctor of Grace' (III de Anima)

    Q. Where do infants go who die without baptism?
    A. Infants who die without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy the sight of God but also do not suffer, this is because having original sin and this alone they do not merit Heaven but neither do they merit purgatory or Hell.

    - Catechism of Christian Doctrine

    'For there be some that are withdrawn from the present light, before they attain to shew forth the good or evil deserts of an active life. And whereas the Sacraments of salvation do not free them from the sin of their birth, at the same time that here they never did aright by their own act; there they are brought to torment. And these have one wound, viz. to be born in corruption, and another, to die in the flesh. But forasmuch as after death there also follows, death eternal, by a secret and righteous judgment "wounds are multiplied to them without cause." For they even receive everlasting torments, who never sinned by their own will. And hence it is written, Even the infant of a single day is not pure in His sight upon earth. Hence "Truth" says by His own lips, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom  of God.  Hence Paul says, We were by nature the children of wrath even as others.  

    He then that adding nothing of his own is mined by the guilt of birth alone, how stands it with such an one at the last account, as far as the calculation of human sense goes, but that he is "wounded without cause?" And yet in the strict account of God it is but just that the stock of mortality, like an unfruitful tree, should preserve in the branches that bitterness which it drew from the root. Therefore he says, For He shall break me with a tempest, and multiply my wounds without cause. As if reviewing the woes of mankind he said in plain words; "With what sort of visitation does the strict Judge mercilessly slay those, whom the guilt of their own deeds condemns, if He smites for all eternity even those, whom the guilt of deliberate choice does not impeach?"'

    Pope St. Gregory the Great


    .. Basically, I see the current climate an extrapolation of the universal or near universal salvation theme in regards to Limbo.

    First one gets rid of the place, then one extends mercy to the extent it does not exist as a state of being, and condemns the past saints and popes statements as antiquated and lacking in hope and mercy.

    But, it has struck me that if infants by default went to Heaven, we would have heard about it long before now. Who would not wish to say it -- if it could be said?
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline shin

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    Aborted babies go to Heaven
    « Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 04:56:25 AM »
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  • Council of Lyons II, 1274:

    "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments." (Denzinger 464)

    Council of Florence, 1438-1445:
    "the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Denzinger 693)

    Pope Martin V, Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 -
    Proposition 6: "Those who claim, that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this--- Condemned." Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 422

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session Va:
    "If anyone says that recently born babies should not be baptized even if they have been born to baptized parents; or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but incur no trace of the original sin of Adam needing to be cleansed by the laver of rebirth for them to obtain eternal life, with the necessary consequence that in their case there is being understood a form of baptism for the remission of sins which is not true, but false: let him be anathema." (Denz. 791)

    The Douay Catechism of 1649:

    Q. 827.  Whither go infants that die without baptism?
    A. To a part of hell, where they endure the pain of loss, but not of sense, and shall never see the face of God.

    Q. 828.  How prove you that?
    A. Out of John iii. 5. "Unless a man be born again of water, and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

     

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