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Author Topic: A sports sinful?  (Read 4936 times)

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Offline davyvfr

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A sports sinful?
« on: November 04, 2013, 06:00:59 PM »
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  • Hello,

    I have been informed from a priest (not my normal parish priest) that "skydiving" and unnecessary risk is sinful against the 5th commandment. The reason is because all skydivers do not respect life (Which doesn't seem to be the case). I have also had a spiritual advisor say its not sinful and Catholics who have said it is not. I will be asking my normal parish priest tomorrow. But ultimately, is it a sin?



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 06:05:35 PM »
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  • Taking unnecessary risks where the risk includes certain death is definitely flirting with sin, if not already there, IMO.

    I don't see a substantial difference between sky-diving and Russian Roulette.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 06:22:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Taking unnecessary risks where the risk includes certain death is definitely flirting with sin, if not already there, IMO.

    I don't see a substantial difference between sky-diving and Russian Roulette.  


    So, all of those people who auto race are sinning because death is a possibility. And you are sinning because you drive your car when you could walk?

    Therefore, all of those people who watch sports are sinning because they are contributing to it (by providing view count) or paying to see a NASCAR race would be no different than paying money to see an abortion clinic?

    What about all those Catholics who watched Felix jump from near space? This was technically a BASE jump, yet no one seemed to think of him as a sinner for placing his life in risk? In fact, most considered him a brave type of person.

    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 06:28:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Taking unnecessary risks where the risk includes certain death is definitely flirting with sin, if not already there, IMO.

    I don't see a substantial difference between sky-diving and Russian Roulette.  


    Also, why would you state "Your opinion"? I am trying to find official Catholic Church teaching. I guess I am just going to accept it as "prudential judgement" and go from there.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 06:39:44 PM »
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  • I stated that it was my opinion because I do not know of any Church teaching that touches on sky-diving.

    But I also do not know of any Church teaching that says you can't light someone on fire and then run them over with your truck.  See what I mean?

    I don't know that it's all that different from NASCAR, though one difference that jumps to mind immediately is that NASCAR drivers do what they do as a profession-- i.e., it is their occupation.  Unless your occupation is a sky-diving instructor, I don't think the two are analogous.  Your family does not depend on your sky-diving to put food on the table.  

    When you sky-dive, there are two possible outcomes: One, your chute opens (in time) and you live.  The other, your chute malfunctions and you die.  It is not reasonable to expect to live if your chute malfunctions.  In NASCAR, while an accident can occur (and many do) there are many variables that make death "less" of a possibility.

    Seeking to manipulate adrenaline is disordered.  It's purpose is to preserve the human person in circuмstances of danger or death-- to purposefully bring about instances of danger or death in order to experience adrenaline indicates a disordered thinking pattern.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 06:52:37 PM »
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  • Thanks for the reply.

    I will not go into detail here, but skydivers have TWO parachutes. The reserve parachute will automatically deploy even if you do nothing. WAY to many people have a lack of knowledge of skydiving and are to quick to assume.

    Are you saying the Church automatically states that NASCAR is not sinful while skydiving is? I think we need to quantify risk here. If I jump out of plane with no parachute, it would be asking for death (which isn't possible though). But with proper training, the risk is slightly diminished.

    And yes, the Church does teach about lighting a person on fire. Its called "respect for human life".

    Also, if your parachute doesn't deploy correctly, then its best to get as much nylon over your head as possible. Also, if we are just exchanging opinions, then mine counts too.

    Offline Frances

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 09:22:22 PM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:
    Sky diving would not appeal to me, but I don't believe it is sinful if proper training and precautions are taken.  It seems to me more people die as a result of auto accidents than auto racing or sky diving.  Bungy jumping and hang-gliding probably fall into the same category.  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 09:37:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Frances
    :dancing-banana:
    Sky diving would not appeal to me, but I don't believe it is sinful if proper training and precautions are taken.  It seems to me more people die as a result of auto accidents than auto racing or sky diving.  Bungy jumping and hang-gliding probably fall into the same category.  


    I right now just asked my local parish priest and he stated "jumping out of a perfectly good airplane with a parachute is not a sin" (Was he really being serious or sarcastic)???

    Oddly, the "traditional Catholic priest" I asked stated it was a sin.

    Their views seem to differ greatly, why is this?


    Offline Frances

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 09:58:15 PM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:
    The traditional priest has a fear of heights?  Maybe the answer depends more upon your motivation than the actual sport.  Why do you want to sky-dive?  Do you have a need to be a daredevil, or do you see it as skill or challenge to be mastered?  In his younger years, my Dad used to go for a glider ride every summer.  For those who don't know, a glider is an engineless plane that gets towed by a motorised plane, then cut loose to glide to a landing.  But he was also a licensed pilot for both plane and helicopter.  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Cantarella

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 11:52:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Taking unnecessary risks where the risk includes certain death is definitely flirting with sin, if not already there, IMO.

    I don't see a substantial difference between sky-diving and Russian Roulette.  


    I think you are forgetting that the deliberate intention of hurting one self is a sin, which is not the case of risky sports, such as sky diving, in which people engage for entertaining purposes only (not sure of this, since I am not into those myself).

    The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person's death or hurt (in this case, self).

    Since there is not a real intention of hurting one self, or those around, I don't think that sky diving or other risky sports are sinful in themselves.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 12:34:14 AM »
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  • I think there's room for negligence against one's own safety in the 5th Commandment. I found this article which made some sense:

    Quote from: Daily Catholic on the 5th C

        This also holds for gang fighting and "chicken" car chases or racing when one puts their life in danger. The same holds true for daredevil stunts and dangerous antics such as skydiving or bungee jumping without proper instruction and strict safety precautions. Teens and young adults are more prone to these stunts because they have more of a sense of "invincibility" and often, only age and the wisdom of their faith can mellow their thinking.

        Very often the condition of the body affects that of the soul. If the body is unhealthy, the soul suffers. There is a wise Roman proverb: "A healthy mind in a healthy body." However, we are not obliged to employ unusual means involving great expense, or extraordinary suffering. We must exercise prudence in preserving our health and that of those under our care. Prudence would imply cleanliness, temperance, regularity, industry, and the use of remedies during sickness.

        Driving a car at excessive speed, crossing the tracks when a train is approaching, playing with loaded firearms, jumping into or out of a car when it is in motion, any kind of action that would endanger one's life are imprudent actions, taking risks for insufficient reason.


    It goes on, to nearly Puritanical-type values (no drinking, etc), but I think you can pilot, bungee jump, etc for a thrill as an activity with a very reasonable expectation of living IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING ("proper instruction" and "strict safety precautions"). Otherwise merely stepping in a river might get you swooshed out to sea, and we'd all still be in Africa or the Middle East somewhere, scared to step away from safety.

    Nascar, I know nothing about, but they've got to make money, and there are lots of crashes that don't kill people, so I'd suggest those drivers both have knowledge and safety equipment AND sufficient reason (to earn a living) in driving fast. But I know nothing of Nascar.

    I'm not sure how skydiving would be bad if you've taken the lessons, either.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ


    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #11 on: November 05, 2013, 02:58:19 AM »
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  • I agree, it comes down to intent. I don't think any skydiver wants to honestly injure or kill themselves. Bungee jumping, BASE jumping (legally), ect.. would all be ok with training. Most skydiving is seen as a leisurely activity. Of course, there could also be other problems such as not giving time for family due to spending to much time skydiving and so on.

    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #12 on: November 05, 2013, 03:13:37 AM »
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  • However, what I have found is that traditional Catholic priest give different answers than normal modern priest.

    Offline davyvfr

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 03:44:04 AM »
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  • Sorry for three post in a row, since I can't edit my last one. But this is directly from the CCC:

    2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others' safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.


    Offline Stubborn

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    A sports sinful?
    « Reply #14 on: November 05, 2013, 07:41:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: davyvfr
    However, what I have found is that traditional Catholic priest give different answers than normal modern priest.


    No surprise there.

    Who would expect NO priests, who believes that we are only here to enjoy  Sunshine Lollipops And Rainbows to have any opinion at all about placing our immortal souls at risk for the sake of having fun?






     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse