Author Topic: A QUESTION TO THE NOS CONCERNING MARRIAGE (Read 2039 times)

copticruiser · « **on:** February 28, 2012, 01:02:31 AM »

Ok not trying to do any provoking but because there are a few brave NO's on this forum. Answer me one question concerning marriage.

In the world of NO's annulments, remarriage, divorce seems to be common place. This new view of the sacrament of marriage seems to allow (With the churches blessing and authority of course) for high numbers of remarriage with clean consciences. Despite (some of you may already know) the fact that decades ago this sort of thing was an extreme rarity. I believe the numbers are like 300 world wide vs 70 000 just in North America. I forget the two time period comparisons. (1950's vs 1970's)

One priest from India that we were talking to told us that the majority of weddings there are pre arranged. The priest went on to say that according to North America standards NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD BE CONSIDERED VALID. Or at the very least most of them according to OUR STANDARD would have more than enough ammo to dissolve the marriage.

QUESTION DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THEN THAT THOSE POOR EAST INDIANS SHOULD GET ANNULED AFTER ALL HERE IN THE WEST WE GET AWAY WITH LESS?

Just curious?????

Sigismund · « **Reply #1 on:** February 29, 2012, 09:48:43 PM »

As I understand it, it is not the fact that a marriage is arranged that makes it invalid, but a lack of consent. If both parties really want to get married after an arrangement, I don't see why that should be a problem. If one of the parties is not free to consent to the marriage, then it would be invalid.

In terms of the number of annulments, Perhaps too many are granted now, but I think perhaps too few were granted before. Also, sadly and frighteningly, it may be that so many people hod erroneous or even heretical notions of marriage that many of them are not married.

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** February 29, 2012, 10:38:29 PM »

Can you expound on this:

Quote

but I think perhaps too few were granted before.

SouthernBelle · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:10:39 PM »

I don't know why so many are surprised at the great number of annulments today, given the deplorable state of catechesis.

It stands to reason (at least to me) that poorly catechized Catholics who know little to nothing about their faith would also not have a good understanding about the seriousness and sanctity of marriage.

As for the validity of those Indian marriages, it's simply not an issue unless they are subsequently getting divorced and applying for an annulment, so I guess I don't fully understand your question.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:20:01 PM »

Quote from: SouthernBelle

I don't know why so many are surprised at the great number of annulments today, given the deplorable state of catechesis.

People apply for annulments and it has nothing to do with their level of catechism. It has to do with wanting to commit bigamy.

Quote

It stands to reason (at least to me) that poorly catechized Catholics who know little to nothing about their faith would also not have a good understanding about the seriousness and sanctity of marriage.

I would think if they believe that more than a tiny fraction of annulments granted today are legitimate they might have little understanding of the Catholic Faith. I think they all know that Catholic marriage is for life.

Quote

As for the validity of those Indian marriages, it's simply not an issue unless they are subsequently getting divorced and applying for an annulment, so I guess I don't fully understand your question.

Oh really? So the validity of a marriage only matters once they decide to divorce?

Very interesting way of thinking. It goes to show that the belief that a marriage is invalid is contingent for you, not really on the conditions under which the marriage takes place, but on rather whether or not they want a divorce.

SouthernBelle · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:50:53 PM »

People apply for annulments and it has nothing to do with their level of catechism. It has to do with wanting to commit bigamy.

Annulments are applied for because someone recognizes that in order for their new marriage to be valid in the eyes of the Church they must first have their previous marriage declared invalid. I would think that would imply a better level of catechesis and understanding of Church teachings than occurred with the first marriage.

Oh really? So the validity of a marriage only matters once they decide to divorce?

Very interesting way of thinking. It goes to show that the belief that a marriage is invalid is contingent for you, not really on the conditions under which the marriage takes place, but on rather whether or not they want a divorce.

It is my understanding that an annulment can only be applied for after a divorce is finalized. So a couple who has no desire to divorce has no need to question whether their marriage is considered valid based on the conditions or dispositions under which it took place. That is all I am saying.

copticruiser · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:17:13 PM »

Quote from: SouthernBelle

I don't know why so many are surprised at the great number of annulments today, given the deplorable state of catechesis.

It stands to reason (at least to me) that poorly catechized Catholics who know little to nothing about their faith would also not have a good understanding about the seriousness and sanctity of marriage.

As for the validity of those Indian marriages, it's simply not an issue unless they are subsequently getting divorced and applying for an annulment, so I guess I don't fully understand your question.

Thanks for responding. :reading: The point I was trying to make is that in India most couples have NO CHOICE in the matter. They are told who and when to marry. If they had the choices and freedoms we have I dont think they would marry to begin with or stay married.

I think its scary that based on North American freedoms the vast majority of India (catholics) would be within their right to get annulments to the spouses they never chose and their parents made them marry.

A person could blame it on culture, poverty etc but at the end of the day these people received a holy sacrament even though the majority did not ask for it. I wonder if there is divorce and what percentage. Seems like our countries have a rather high one.

copticruiser · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:25:51 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

As I understand it, it is not the fact that a marriage is arranged that makes it invalid, but a lack of consent. If both parties really want to get married after an arrangement, I don't see why that should be a problem. If one of the parties is not free to consent to the marriage, then it would be invalid.

In terms of the number of annulments, Perhaps too many are granted now, but I think perhaps too few were granted before. Also, sadly and frighteningly, it may be that so many people hod erroneous or even heretical notions of marriage that many of them are not married.

Couples use to stay married through thick and thin. Yes it was hard and the temptation to escape a failing marriage very great. I am thankful the annulments were not granted quickly it would only make for what is happening now happen that much faster. Crisis in the family.

You must remember though annulments not commonly granted nor divorce there was always the freedom of separation. I think is a wonderful way to get a clear head, assess the problem, work on a game plan, seek the council of fellow catholics.

Dr.Laura said the three A's ALCOHOL ABUSE ADULTRY now though they are all hard they are not impossible. I dont not condone or would recommend anyone to stay in such circuмstances. Thankfully we have separation and after a good sincere trial period once all resources exhausted then the final decision of DIVORCE. Which is PERMITTED in our church yesterday and today. I just have HUGE issue with REMARRIAGE. Nowhere does Christ allow for it. I have no idea where ANY CHRISTIAN can justify remarriage to the the second, third, fourth spouse that Jesus supposedly blessed them with?????

Your friendly canadian :farmer:

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:35:51 PM »

Quote

Dr.Laura said the three A's ALCOHOL ABUSE ADULTRY

I don't think anyone should listen to Dr. Laura.

copticruiser · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:07:33 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
Dr.Laura said the three A's ALCOHOL ABUSE ADULTRY

I don't think anyone should listen to Dr. Laura.

LOL :dancing:

I use to listen but now we dont get her on our local radio station and Id rather listen to fulton sheen or cath music than look her up online.

Like her not she does have some practical advice on things.

:geezer:

SouthernBelle · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2012, 04:49:09 PM »

Quote from: copticruiser

A person could blame it on culture, poverty etc but at the end of the day these people received a holy sacrament even though the majority did not ask for it. I wonder if there is divorce and what percentage. Seems like our countries have a rather high one.

It's possible that in India divorce is still culturally frowned upon. I know that in the past (speaking specifically of Western European countries) there was a huge social stigma attached to divorce, with the biggest burden falling upon the woman. I don't think that attitude was necessarily wrong, though there's no doubt many were affected negatively, but we've certainly gone too far in the opposite direction.

As for getting married in the first place, cultural mores are often very strong and shape our attitudes. It's quite likely that those Indian couples in arranged marriages aren't any more happy or unhappy than those of us in the U.S whose got to choose our spouses.

Sigismund · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:24:49 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Can you expound on this:

Quote

but I think perhaps too few were granted before.

I think that perhaps not enough attention was paid in the past to psychological problems or emotional immaturity that made real consent and therefor validity impossible.

I really mean it when I say "I think". I may be completely wrong.

Sigismund · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2012, 05:27:07 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
Dr.Laura said the three A's ALCOHOL ABUSE ADULTRY

I don't think anyone should listen to Dr. Laura.

Okay, THERE is something we agree on! :smile:

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2012, 08:53:30 AM »

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/k012rpAnnulments_Stretenovic.html