Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: poche on June 04, 2013, 02:57:20 AM
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In India, a Christian man has been beheaded after he refused to become a Hindu.
Tapas Bin, 35-year-old resident of a remote tribal region of West Tripura, had been under heavy pressure from his father-in-law to abandon Christianity. Police say that the father-in-law conspired with a local Hindu religious leader to arrange Bin’s killing.
The father-in-law has disappeared, and his daughter—the wife of the murder victim—fears that he might seek to kill her and her son as well.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18042
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Don't know why I'm even asking, but...
Was this man a Roman Catholic? Or was he a member of Prot-Newchurch?
As tragic as such a senseless assault is, those who are outside Christ's Church
are not martyrs. It would truly be a shame if his soul was lost when he died in such a terrible way.
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Was this man a Roman Catholic? Or was he a member of Prot-Newchurch?
As tragic as such a senseless assault is, those who are outside Christ's Church
are not martyrs. It would truly be a shame if his soul was lost when he died in such a terrible way.
I think those martyrs who in some way attached to NewRome are not necessarily NewCatcholics. I believe this man was a Martyr, if he indeed died in the way which the article says.
The same goes for the Byzantine and Easter Rite Catholics who die in Iraq, such as the priest who was beheaded on his alter, and the Christian children who were crucified (I think in Iraq as well)>
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:facepalm:Sorry at work-
*Altar
*Eastern Rite.
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Was this man a Roman Catholic? Or was he a member of Prot-Newchurch? . . . . It would truly be a shame if his soul was lost when he died in such a terrible way.
I have also wondered also if members of the conciliar church who are martyred go to heaven. How many of the members of the conciliar church have the true faith? I hope he had the faith and is in heaven.
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I hate to spoil anyone's mood, but those who are in Newchurch or the schismatic churches are devoid of the graces necessary for salvation, because as people with the ability to know and choose correctly, they are without excuse when they stay connected to those groups that are severed from Christ, the Head of the ONE Body, which is His Church.
Not in the Church = not Christian.
Not Christian = not a martyr.
You see, the problem people always run into when they talk about valid Sacraments in Newchurch or anywhere else is the one of responsibility for the knowledge we have. There is simply no excuse for someone to remain separated from Christ's Church when there are available both knowledge of the truth and opportunity to obey it.
One may not be able to join the Church easily or immediately, but one may always STOP sinning by participating in false worship.
A person may be saved before they have the chance to do everything beneficial to their salvation, but they cannot be saved while persisting in sinful error in concord with Christ's enemies.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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Not in the Church = not Christian.
Not Christian = not a martyr.
I agree with this, but I think it is possible to be in the new church and still be Catholic. I don't think it is likely, but I think it is possible.
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Receiving a wafer which is NOT the Sacred Host and kneeling or genuflecting to it is IDOLATRY.
Participation in a "service" with a man who was never consecrated validly as a priest is sacrilege.
One cannot accept Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic at the same time. They are positions which could not be more totally opposed to one another.
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Receiving a wafer which is NOT the Sacred Host and kneeling or genuflecting to it is IDOLATRY.
Participation in a "service" with a man who was never consecrated validly as a priest is sacrilege.
One cannot accept Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic at the same time. They are positions which could not be more totally opposed to one another.
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One cannot accept Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic at the same time. They are positions which could not be more totally opposed to one another.
I think it is possible for a layman to believe in the true faith and not believe in the new conciliar religon, but still be in the newchurch because they don't know any better. I think it is more likely in the eastern rites because there the liturgy is not blatantly sacrilegious. I don't think it is common but I think it is possible.
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There's nothing to "think". The Mass of the ages is not present in Newchurch, hence, it is not the Church. Not know any better? Infants and the retarded are not capable of knowing better. Anyone who can make a claim to faith can and should know better.
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There's nothing to "think". The Mass of the ages is not present in Newchurch, hence, it is not the Church.
This is incorrect. It is at least present, though it is the object of extreme marginalization.
Not know any better? Infants and the retarded are not capable of knowing better. Anyone who can make a claim to faith can and should know better.
Sorry to burst your bubble- but not all who attend the Novus Ordo are non-Catholics; there are many who aren't, but they're not all apostates. Many who are somehow attached to NewRome, I might say especially those who belong to the Eastern Rites, are good Catholics and have the Faith.
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Stephen Frances- have you been hanging around Mike And Pete Dimond's website recently? I would caution you to stay away from those pseudo monks.
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s2rea, no, I have not. If you'd bothered to read anything else I've ever posted here you'd see that I have addressed the Dimond Brothers' website and do not recognize them as in any way representing the Faith.
The Eastern liturgies have been changed just like the Roman one was replaced. It is not possible to accept the heresies of Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic. To agree with their false theology or to tolerate same while attending their idolatrous services is mortally sinful.
That's not the opinion of some armchair sede website. That's the first chapter of the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. When you participate in or even tolerate the filth of Christ's enemies, you participate in their recompense as well, which shall be Hell.
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Receiving a wafer which is NOT the Sacred Host and kneeling or genuflecting to it is IDOLATRY.
Participation in a "service" with a man who was never consecrated validly as a priest is sacrilege.
One cannot accept Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic at the same time. They are positions which could not be more totally opposed to one another.
Objectively, yes (though I do not think that the NO is necessarily invalid each and every single time) it would be idolatry, but if the person actually thinks that it IS the Sacred Host, they are not guilty of idolatry.
Ditto regarding the orders of the newchurchmen.
There have been traveling priests that are charlatans, men who it is doubtful were ever ordained. A Catholic in good faith, who believes a man to be ordained and to be able to confect the sacrament does not sin if it turns out the 'priest' was just a music-man looking to take advantage of pious and trusting people.
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s2rea, no, I have not. If you'd bothered to read anything else I've ever posted here you'd see that I have addressed the Dimond Brothers' website and do not recognize them as in any way representing the Faith.
Great.
The Eastern liturgies have been changed just like the Roman one was replaced.
Some have, but not all.
It is not possible to accept the heresies of Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic.
Bishop Williamson, a man I look up to and respect, and many other faithful Catholics would disagree with you on some levels, at least. You may disagree with him, but I place my trust in his opinion. I also see a problem with the generalization you present in what exactly the laity attached to New Rome are exactly accepting of. I don't think we can say that all members in the Novus Ordo have lost the Faith, or non-Catholics.
To agree with their false theology or to tolerate same while attending their idolatrous services is mortally sinful.
I'm not a theologian, so I have little to respond there. I agree that attending the Novus Ordo is a mortal sin, because it is illicitly promoted Mass.
That's not the opinion of some armchair sede website. That's the first chapter of the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. When you participate in or even tolerate the filth of Christ's enemies, you participate in their recompense as well, which shall be Hell.
Again, to disagree with you is not to disagree with the Epistle of St. Paul, but your use of scripture in defending your position begs the question in each one of these specific cases.
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There is a difference between an error of fact and an error of faith.
Someone attending a NO service where there is no transubstantiation, but adores the bread as if there was, commits an error of fact. Attending a TLM where there is a valid sacrament and the person behaves as if the Sacred Host is just a wafer is an error of faith.
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s2rea, no, I have not. If you'd bothered to read anything else I've ever posted here you'd see that I have addressed the Dimond Brothers' website and do not recognize them as in any way representing the Faith.
The Eastern liturgies have been changed just like the Roman one was replaced. It is not possible to accept the heresies of Newchurch and be a faithful Catholic. To agree with their false theology or to tolerate same while attending their idolatrous services is mortally sinful.
That's not the opinion of some armchair sede website. That's the first chapter of the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. When you participate in or even tolerate the filth of Christ's enemies, you participate in their recompense as well, which shall be Hell.
You are simplifying things too much, Stephen.
It is not true that everyone with the faculty of reason sees the Crisis in the Church and understands it perfectly, as well as what the correct course of action is.
That is ridiculous.
If that were true, we wouldn't have a multitude of different "paths" in the Traditional Catholic world.
SSPX "Resistance", SSPX, SSPV, Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King, Indult, independent, conclavist Sedevacantist, etc.
You can't say that just one of them is correct, and the rest are all going to Hell.
You underestimate the magnitude and power of this current Crisis to befuddle and confuse the good-willed Faithful.
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Was this man a Roman Catholic? Or was he a member of Prot-Newchurch? . . . . It would truly be a shame if his soul was lost when he died in such a terrible way.
I have also wondered also if members of the conciliar church who are martyred go to heaven. How many of the members of the conciliar church have the true faith? I hope he had the faith and is in heaven.
Perhaps you and Stephen Francis should worry more about your won soul than about parsing the faith of martyrs.
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This man chose Christ over the pagan Hindu gods and he was murdered. He may never be canonized but in the eyes of God he is a saint. Would to God that we could all be so faithful to our profession of faith.
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In India, a Christian man has been beheaded after he refused to become a Hindu.
Tapas Bin, 35-year-old resident of a remote tribal region of West Tripura, had been under heavy pressure from his father-in-law to abandon Christianity.
[..]
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18042
Another Newchurch post because of its inaccuracy where it matters.
Poche, do tell us what "Christian" means here in your Newchurch article. Was this man you're reporting about a Catholic, or a Protestant, or from another sect ?
Usually protestants call themselves "Christians", whilst Catholics call themselves Catholics, to distinguish the two. (Funnily most protestants I know don't think that we Catholics are Christians at all.)
Anyway, a protestant who dies for his wrong protestant projection of the true Christ, may be a good man but for sure he'll never be a Saint. This also applies to most of the Newsaints and Newblessed of the "heretical and schismatic conciliar Church".
In short: Poche, please stop your Newchurch propaganda. (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Poche-please-stop-your-Newchurch-propaganda)
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In India, a Christian man has been beheaded after he refused to become a Hindu.
Tapas Bin, 35-year-old resident of a remote tribal region of West Tripura, had been under heavy pressure from his father-in-law to abandon Christianity.
[..]
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18042
Another Newchurch post because of its inaccuracy where it matters.
Poche, do tell us what "Christian" means here in your Newchurch article. Was this man you're reporting about a Catholic, or a Protestant, or from another sect ?
Usually protestants call themselves "Christians", whilst Catholics call themselves Catholics, to distinguish the two. (Funnily most protestants I know don't think that we Catholics are Christians at all.)
Anyway, a protestant who dies for his wrong protestant projection of the true Christ, may be a good man but for sure he'll never be a Saint. This also applies to most of the Newsaints and Newblessed of the "heretical and schismatic conciliar Church".
In short: Poche, please stop your Newchurch propaganda. (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Poche-please-stop-your-Newchurch-propaganda)
My response to a Protestant calling himself a Christain is to say that I am one also. When a Protestant says that I am not a Christian as if being Catholic was not Christian then I consider it a slur.
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Here is more information on this situation.
A 35-year-old Christian man was beheaded for refusing to convert to Hinduism. Indian media that covered the affair revealed that the man, Tapas Bin, was killed by his own father-in-law in the village of Teliamura (West Tripura District), in the north-eastern part of the country, where the victim's body was found a few days ago in a stream.
According to police, three years ago Bin married Jentuly, the daughter of 55-year-old Gobinda Jamatiya, the member of a local tribal religion. The Christian man had been a private tutor of Gobinda's daughter, and the couple had a one-year-old son.
Since the marriage, Gobinda had been pressuring Bin to abandon Christianity and join his tribal religion. When Bin persistently refused, Gobinda decided to kill his son-in-law with the help of an ojha (shaman), Krishnapada Jamatiya (no relation), and dispose of the body.
Police arrested the 42-year-old shaman but were unable to find Gobinda, who works at the West Tripura Science and Technology Department, and is thought to be on the run.
Khrishnapada confessed to the crime, providing detailed information about the killing. For example, he said that before the assassination, Gobinda and he had performed a puja, a ritual prayer.
Bin's wife Jentuly told police that her father did not recognise their marriage and had pressured Bin to convert. What is more, "My father might kill me and my son too," she said.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Tripura:-Christian-man-beheaded-for-not-converting-to-Hinduism-28097.html
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This is about the original source of this information. It is from Asia News. It does not say whether the man was Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox. He could have been Traditionalist. But he was killed because he believed in Christ, he identified himself as a Christian, and would not renounce his Christianity in favor of worshiping pagan idols.
Here is more about Asia News;
As of today, Dec. 3 2003, www.asianews.it can be read in English and Chinese. We are very encouraged by the success of the AsiaNews on-line edition in Italian. In the previous month of November alone, there were 150,000 visitors to our site, whose articles were diffused among major Italian press agencies. Thanks to the re-launching of our news by Catholic press agencies such as MISNA and Zenit, AsiaNews articles have also reached other parts of the globe.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/About-us-127.html
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Oh, good. Now we know that Hus, Wycliffe, the Albigensians and the Mormon missionaries who have died for their 'j-sus' were 'saints', too.
A few months ago, this Indian man was praying in union with Ratzinger, a manifest heretic. A few days ago, he was praying in union with Bergoglio, a man who has publicly participated in blasphemous, idolatrous and heretical 'prayer' with infidel Jєωs.
Were any of the heretical blasphemies of those men clear enough to demonstrate that this Indian man should have left fellowship with Newchurch and its criminal leaders?
How many more days, weeks, months, years or DECADES of past and present corruption, deceit, blasphemy and perversion of the teachings and dogmas of Holy Church would have been enough evidence for this man?
His death was tragic, and I have said so much already. He was, however, not a saint or a martyr. His false worship of a non-existent Protestant 'j-sus' is even more of a tragedy.
Matthew, I admit my opinion here might be harsh and I would even accept that I have possibly been uncharitable, but "ridiculous" is too harsh.
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
Source: Papal Bull Cantate Domino, by Pope Eugene IV, 1441.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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This is about the original source of this information. It is from Asia News. It does not say whether the man was Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox. He could have been Traditionalist.
Then your "information" is not an information, but shallow and useless, as is 99% of your Newchurch propaganda.
But he was killed because he believed in Christ, he identified himself as a Christian, and would not renounce his Christianity in favor of worshiping pagan idols.
Newchurch nonsense again based on the non-information you provided. And very close to the so called Reformation, which actually is a Deformation.
Say I know X protestants, amongst them good men and not-so-good men. However all of them call themselves "Christian", and every single one of them identifies himself as a Christian, and would not renounce his Christianity. It just doesn't mean anything, because their "Christ" is not the true Jesus Christ which we Catholics believe in, but a wrong protestant projection.
The ironic part is: These X protestants usually uphold X different and opposing "Christianities". Their single uniting element is that they all are anti-Catholic (and of course heretic and schismatic and all believe to go straight to heaven in their hour of death).
As said, there are good men amongst these X protestants, but there's nothing truthfully or saintly about them when they uphold -- or even die for -- their objective deformation of Jesus Christ and His Church.
We're not talking about the question if these X protestants are saved when they die. God decides. But they're not Saints. So don't say so. And during their entire live they objectively fought against the true Jesus Christ and His One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church.
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The person did not die rejecting God, did he? At least it doesn't sound as if he did according to the facts presented here.
You people who insist on judging the soul of everyone are the ones who should be shaking in your boots right now. Who do you think you are anyway?
True, we have all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to believe, and the helps to restore us to His saving grace once lost, which returns us to His friendship. Yet, you people insist on skipping over one truth, and that is... the Church teaches us in the end it is not your place to say, who is a friend of God and who rejected Him. To ignore this teaching is to ignore God, His Church and His reward. In other-words the Church teaches us to hope for salvation not despair, and certainly NOT to judge the soul of another.
God gives everyone of us, enough grace to save our souls, it is up to us in the end to cooperate with that grace.
By withholding our personal judgement of what the final judgement of a particular soul does not mean rejecting NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. It just means, it is not your/our place to say if a person died an enemy or friend of God.
Do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul?
BTW Feeneyism is also a NEWCHURCH.
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You are simplifying things too much, Stephen.
It is not true that everyone with the faculty of reason sees the Crisis in the Church and understands it perfectly, as well as what the correct course of action is.
That is ridiculous.
If that were true, we wouldn't have a multitude of different "paths" in the Traditional Catholic world.
SSPX "Resistance", SSPX, SSPV, Fraternity of St. Peter, Institute of Christ the King, Indult, independent, conclavist Sedevacantist, etc.
You can't say that just one of them is correct, and the rest are all going to Hell.
You underestimate the magnitude and power of this current Crisis to befuddle and confuse the good-willed Faithful.
The confusion caused by the current Apostasy does not in any way exempt a putative Catholic from knowing their faith intimately, both in terms of what it has been immemorially, and in contrast to what the conciliar antichurch contends that it is now. Protestant heretics have the same Apostles, the same morality, the same belief in the necessity of Christ for man's redemption, in many points the same morality, but however well-meaning they may be they practice a perversion of the Catholic faith, in theology and praxis, which is alien to Apostolicity and at best is utterly devoid of means of sanctification. How is this any different from the Montinian religion? Would you argue then that Baptist missionaries killed by Moslems are martyrs as well? The Christ in whose name they pour out their blood, to paraphrase Eugene IV, is as alien and repugnant to the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity as the Isa of the Qu'ran. Likewise, the Jesus in whom conciliarists put their faith, a Jesus that permits many ways to the Father, that consigns Jєωs to their blasphemous perfidy, that recognizes sanctification in religions of false Gods, whom the Apostle called devils, is not of the Father. Either a conciliarist believes in this Jesus, or he does not and, like Aaron, offers incense to the golden calf.
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The person did not die rejecting God, did he? At least it doesn't sound as if he did according to the facts presented here.
You people who insist on judging the soul of everyone are the ones who should be shaking in your boots right now. Who do you think you are anyway?
True, we have all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to believe, and the helps to restore us to His saving grace once lost, which returns us to His friendship. Yet, you people insist on skipping over one truth, and that is... the Church teaches us in the end it is not your place to say, who is a friend of God and who rejected Him. To ignore this teaching is to ignore God, His Church and His reward. In other-words the Church teaches us to hope for salvation not despair, and certainly NOT to judge the soul of another.
God gives everyone of us, enough grace to save our souls, it is up to us in the end to cooperate with that grace.
By withholding our personal judgement of what the final judgement of a particular soul does not mean rejecting NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. It just means, it is not your/our place to say if a person died an enemy or friend of God.
Do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul?
BTW Feeneyism is also a NEWCHURCH.
Yes it was condemned by Pius IX to entertain good hope that people not in the true Church will attain salvation, and how could someone practicing the Montinian religion claim in the current age claim membership in the Church through invincible ignorance. Was this a sin against charity and prudence by His Holiness?
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In the name of charity and in order to guard against my pride being a stumbling block, this is the last post I will make on this topic.
Notice, MyrnaM and others, that I never referenced Fr. Feeney, nor was it necessary.
The solemn declarations of one of Peter's successors were sufficient.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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Perhaps you and Stephen Francis should worry more about your won soul than about parsing the faith of martyrs.
:geezer:
I said something but then edited my post to delete what I said.
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Stephen,
Is your avatar St. Joseph of Cupertino?
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Zeitun, yes, it is the "Flying Saint". I've always been drawn to the simplest and most joyful saints, and many Franciscans like Joseph of Cupertino and Brother Juniper, a friend of St. Francis, were marked by their joy and boundless enthusiasm for Christ and His Kingdom.
I have known raptures of joy in my life; would that I were ten percent as truly joyful in Our Lord Jesus Christ as these great saints were and are.
St Joseph of Cupertino, who soared in ecstatic love of Our Eucharistic Lord, pray for us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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The person did not die rejecting God, did he? At least it doesn't sound as if he did according to the facts presented here.
You people who insist on judging the soul of everyone are the ones who should be shaking in your boots right now. Who do you think you are anyway?
True, we have all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to believe, and the helps to restore us to His saving grace once lost, which returns us to His friendship. Yet, you people insist on skipping over one truth, and that is... the Church teaches us in the end it is not your place to say, who is a friend of God and who rejected Him. To ignore this teaching is to ignore God, His Church and His reward. In other-words the Church teaches us to hope for salvation not despair, and certainly NOT to judge the soul of another.
God gives everyone of us, enough grace to save our souls, it is up to us in the end to cooperate with that grace.
By withholding our personal judgement of what the final judgement of a particular soul does not mean rejecting NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. It just means, it is not your/our place to say if a person died an enemy or friend of God.
Do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul?
BTW Feeneyism is also a NEWCHURCH.
Yes it was condemned by Pius IX to entertain good hope that people not in the true Church will attain salvation, and how could someone practicing the Montinian religion claim in the current age claim membership in the Church through invincible ignorance. Was this a sin against charity and prudence by His Holiness?
Here I printed out the source for you, and wonder how your got your interpretation from the good Pope,
<<<QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE (On Promotion Of False Doctrines)
Pope Pius IX
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Encyclical Promulgated on 10 August 1863
To Our Beloved Sons, S. R. E. Cardinals and to Our Venerable Brothers, the Archbishops and Bishops of Italy.
Our Beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, Greetings and Apostolic Benediction.
How much cause we have to grieve over the most cruel and sacrilegious war brought upon the Catholic Church in almost all regions of the world during these turbulent times, and especially declared upon unhappy Italy before our very eyes many years ago by the Piedmontese Government and stirred up more violently day by day, each of you, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, easily understands. In the midst of our great distress, however, as long as you keep watch with us, we are deeply comforted and consoled. Although you are, indeed, most deplorably harassed by every grave injustice possible, torn away from your own flock, exiled and even cast into prison, nevertheless, with your profound virtue you have never neglected to speak and to write in ardent defense of the teachings of God, his Church, and this Apostolic See.
2. Consequently, we give thanks because you fervently rejoice to suffer insult in the name of Jesus. We extend to you merited praise in the words of our most saintly predecessor, Leo: "May you endure with all your heart the trials of your love, which you have undergone in reverence for the Catholic faith; may I accept the sufferings inflicted upon you as if I were bearing them myself. I know, however, that it is a cause of joy rather than of sorrow that with the strength of our Lord, Jesus Christ, you have persevered invincible in your evangelical and apostolic teaching . . . And when the enemies of the Christian faith were tearing you away from your respective churches, rather than being contaminated by their impiety, you preferred to endure the injustice of undergoing exile."[1]
3. Would that we could announce the end of such terrible calamities besetting the Church! Never will there be grief enough over the corruption of morals so extensively increasing and promoted by irreligious and obscene writings, theatrical spectacles and meretricious houses established almost everywhere; by other depraved arts and monstrous portents of every error disseminated in all directions; by the abominable impurities of all vices and crimes growing constantly and the deadly virus of unbelief and indifferentism spread far and wide; by contempt for ecclesiastical authority, sacred things, and laws and by the outrageous plundering of Church possessions; by the bitter and constant abuse of consecrated Church officials, of the students of religious communities, of virgins dedicated to God; by the diabolical hatred of Christ, his Church, teaching, and of this Apostolic See. These and almost innumerable other evils perpetrated by the embittered enemies of the Catholic Church and faith, we are daily compelled to lament.
4. All these agonies seem to prolong and delay that most yearned for time when we shall see the full triumph of our most holy religion, of justice, and of truth. This triumph cannot fail us, however, even if it is not given us to know the time destined for it by almighty God. Even though our heavenly Father permits his holy Church to be afflicted and plagued by various tribulations and distresses while serving during this most miserable and earthly pilgrimage, nevertheless, because it has been founded
by Christ, the Lord, upon an immovable and most firm rock, it cannot be shaken or overthrown by any force or violence. Rather, "it is strengthened, not weakened by persecutions. The Lord's vineyard is always clothed with a richer harvest, for while each grain dies singly, it is born again many-fold."[2]
5. That is what we see happening, beloved sons and venerable brothers, even in these most sorrowful times as a special blessing from God. For although the immaculate Spouse of Christ may be vehemently troubled at the present time by the work of the wicked, yet she is triumphing over her enemies. Yes, indeed, she is conquering her enemies and shines wonderfully bright with your unparalleled faithfulness, love, and respect towards us and this Chair of Peter, and with your outstanding constancy and that of the other venerable brothers, the bishops of the whole Catholic world. She shines with many pious works of Christian charity multiplying rapidly each day; with the light of blessed faith illuminating many regions evermore each day; with the exceptional love and devotion shown by Catholics towards the Church itself, towards us, and this Holy See; with the eminent and immortal glory of martyrdom. You know, in fact, how in Tonkin and especially in the regions of Cochin China, bishops, priests, laymen and even peaceful women themselves, and young boys and girls, emulating the martyrs with their unconquerable spirit and heroic virtue, disdained the most inhuman torture, and greatly rejoiced to pour out their lives for Christ. All these joys should be no slight consolation to us and to you in the midst of the overwhelming anguish that torments us.
6. Now, since our Apostolic Office demands we carefully and zealously
defend the cause of the Church committed to us by Christ, we condemn those who attack and despise the Church itself, its sacred laws, ministers, and this Apostolic See. Hence, with this letter, once more we confirm, proclaim and condemn totally and singly that which in many consistorial allocutions and in our other Letters we have been forced to deplore, declare and condemn.[3]
7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.
10. Furthermore, beloved sons and venerable brothers, we cannot be silent about another most pernicious error, an evil that is pitifully tearing apart and deeply disturbing minds, hearts, and souls. We are referring to that unbridled and damnable self-love and self-interest that drive many to seek their own advantage and profit with clearly no regard for their neighbor. We mean that thoroughly insatiable passion for power and possessions that overrides all the rules of justice and honesty and never ceases by every means possible to amass and greedily heap up wealth. Completely absorbed in the things of earth, forgetful of God, religion and their souls, they wrongly place all their happiness in procuring riches and money. Let such people recollect and meditate seriously upon the very sobering words of Christ, the Lord: "What will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life?"[12] Let them also reflect upon the teaching of Paul: "Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that drag men down to ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evil; it is through this craving that some have wandered away and pierced their hearts with many pangs."[13]
11. Now, truly, we cannot conceal the fact that we are in great anguish since there are some clergy in Italy who, forgetful of their vocation, do not blush in the least to spread abroad false doctrine, even in subversive writings. They arouse the people against us and this Apostolic See; they oppose our civil rule and that of the Chair itself; they shamelessly and zealously support the wicked enemies of the Catholic Church and this same See. Deserting their bishops and us, emboldened by the approval of the Piedmontese government and its Parliament, these ecclesiastics in open contempt of ecclesiastical censure and penalty have become impudently fearless in organizing certain condemnable societies commonly known as Liberal Clerical, of Mutual Assistance, For the Emancipation of the Italian Clergy, and other associations animated by the same depraved spirit. Although deservedly forbidden to perform their holy ministry, nevertheless, like brazen intruders, they sinfully and illicitly exercise it in many churches. We, therefore, disapprove and condemn the behavior of the same ecclesiastics. At the same time, we admonish and exhort, again and again, these unfortunate men to return to their right mind and heart and take thought for their own salvation, seriously considering "that God tolerates no example of conduct more from others than from priests when He sees those, whom He ordains for the improvement of others, give example of their own depravity."[14] Let them fervently reflect that their confused state must be repaired before the tribunal of Christ. May these pitiful churchmen heed our paternal advice and willingly render us the consolation of a repentant clergy. May they seek refuge in us day by day, begging pardon for their defection with suppliant prayer and humbly imploring absolution from ecclesiastical censure.
12. You are certainly aware, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, that every kind of impious and deceitful writing, lies, calumny, and blasphemy has been let loose from hell. No pain has been spared to transfer schools
to non-Catholic teachers and to appropriate churches for non-Catholic worship. With a multiple of other, surely diabolical treacheries, arts, and undertakings, the enemies of God employ every effort to destroy completely—if that were possible—the Catholic Church, seduce and corrupt the people, especially guileless youth, and uproot our holy faith and religion from the souls of all.
13. We are fully confident that you, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, strengthened by the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, will continue steadfast in your outstanding episcopal zeal. With one mind and heart and with redoubled dedication, may you persist in defending the House of Israel, may you fight the good fight for the faith and defend from the snares of the enemy the faithful entrusted to your care. Admonish and exhort them to be strong in our sacred faith, without which it is impossible to please God. Urge them to persevere firmly established in our divine religion, which alone is true and eternal and prepares for salvation and even, to a very great extent, preserves and prospers civil society.
14. Through the parish priests chiefly and other ecclesiastics known for integrity of life, gravity of morals, and constant adherence to sound doctrine, may you teach unremittingly and accurately: at one time preaching the divine word, at another instructing the people in the mysteries of our august religion, its doctrine, precepts, and discipline. You, above all, know that many evils generally arise from ignorance of divine matters essential for salvation. Hence, you will understand that it behooves you to use every care and diligence that so detrimental a condition be prevented.
15. Before we bring our letter to its close, however, we cannot restrain from bestowing due praise upon the Italian clergy, who with the highest degree of devotion to us and this Chair of Peter and to their bishops, have certainly not strayed. Following the noble example of their bishops and bearing all hardships with utmost patience, they fulfill their duty most laudably. We put our trust in the hope, moreover, that this same clergy, with the help of divine grace and walking worthily in their vocation, will always strive to be shining examples of piety and virtue.
16. We continue, too, with fitting and public praise for the many consecrated virgins who violently driven from their monastaries, despoiled of their recompense, and reduced to beggary, have not broken faith with their Spouse. Enduring the most deplorable conditions, they pray day and night in the holy house of God where they patiently await His mercy and beseech Him for the salvation of all, even that of their enemies.
17. We rejoice, also, in praising the people of Italy who, with deep Catholic sensibilities, abhor the many impious and destructive efforts taken against the Church. With filial piety, respect and obedience, they take great pride in honoring us, this Holy See, and their bishops. Amid very serious difficulties and impeded by dangers, each day and in many ways they faithfully offer us tokens of their love and devotion, alleviating the wants of this Apostolic See, at times with money, at other times with other gifts.
18. In the midst of so many calamities and confronted with such fury against the Church, we are not despondent for "Christ is our counsel and our strength; without him we can do nothing, through him we can do all things. While confirming the preachers of the Gospel and the ministers of the sacraments, he said: 'Lo, I am with you always, to the end of time.'"[15] We know for certain, moreover, that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church which stands and will stand immovable with Christ Jesus, our Lord, as guardian and protector, who has built the Church and who has been "yesterday and today and forever."[16]
19. With ever more ardent zeal and humility of heart, let us, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, never stop offering our prayers and petitions to God through Jesus Christ that His Church, driven by this most turbulent tempest, may recover from such great disasters, enjoy the most blessed peace and freedom throughout the world, and gain new and more splendid triumphs over her enemies. Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.
20. That the merciful God may more readily grant our most fervent prayers, let us invoke patronage of the immaculate and most holy Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Let us seek likewise the intercession of the most holy Apostles, Peter and Paul, and of all the blessed in heaven, that with their efficacious prayers before God, they may implore mercy and graces for all and powerfully avert all adversities and dangers afflicting the Church everywhere and especially in Italy.
21. Finally, as a most certain pledge of our singular benevolence toward you, we lovingly impart our heartfelt Apostolic Blessing upon you, beloved sons and venerable brothers, and upon the flock committed to your care.
Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, 10 August, 1863, in the eighteenth year of Our Pontificate. >>>
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7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
In the interest of brevity, I've trimmed your post to the above section, which is the one you feel germane to the discussion. Did you not notice that I broached the question of invincible ignorance in the very post you quoted? From this, I must assume that you feel that I did not give due weight to the occurrence of invincible ignorance, that you consider the probability of its application to be of greater frequency than I, with respect to Montinians, Protestants, etc., or both.
You must understand that the invincibility of that ignorance must be such that, even with the execution of moral diligence, it cannot be reasonably assumed that that ignorance can be corrected. This is a vital point, and one which proceeds from the very heart of my earlier response to Matthew. Moral diligence may be generally understood as the exercise of reason and prudence in the evaluation of an act, both singular and persistent. Similarly, it is understood that the demand to moral diligence is commensurate with the gravity of that being evaluated. A particular species of this moral diligence, of which the supernatural intellect is the organ, is religious diligence, of the type spoken of by the Apostle John, who exhorted us to weigh the doctrines of which men may claim in the name of Christ. What surety of salvation may be found on this side of death is contingent of the degree of religious diligence we exercise in pursuing absolute orthodoxy of belief. Every Holy Communion, every confession, every good work, is a reflection of this diligence, but the true exercise of this diligence in assent of faith is to know with the greatest intimacy our faculties permit what we believe and why. This is not 1960, when the heresies of the conciliar hierarchy were unexpressed, and the noxious fruits of the Apostate Council had not already poisoned the world. The struggle between the Catholic faith and the Montinian religions for souls is apparent to all, and only a little study is even required to see that the two are fundamentally incompatible.
I do not count it absolutely certain that each and every Montinian will be deprived of the Beatific Vision intended as man's eternal reward, any more than I count it certain that all, or even most Traditionalists, will receive that reward. My point, and the point of others in this thread, is that it is extremely likely that the error of fact (the false presumption that the Montinian religion is the same as the immemorial Catholic faith) coupled with the failure of religious diligence, in an time when such diligence is at once most important and easiest to practice, will be sufficient to deprive a very great portion of them of salvation.
Those that believe so do not celebrate this, should it be objectively true; if anything it enjoins those that do have the blessing of the true and eternal Faith to present it unvarnished, integral, and irrevocably separated from the Montinian faith, so that they understand their error all the more clearly.
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My point is where I said, "do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul".
Your point to me was...
"Yes it was condemned by Pius IX"
I realize I am not as versed as you, but I fail to how you arrived at your point.
Another point to remember is, as a Catholic we can judge a person's action, and instruct them according to the teachings of the Church, but we CAN NOT assume they are in Hell after they die. We can hope they saved their soul speaking of this man in the OP.
I doubt anyone hates this New Vatican II church more than myself and I am not defending it, just to be clear. It is a robber church for sure. It is not the Mystical Body of Christ, and it has no true pope, sitting in the Chair of Peter.
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My point is where I said, "do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul".
Your point to me was...
"Yes it was condemned by Pius IX"
I realize I am not as versed as you, but I fail to how you arrived at your point.
Well, that's entirely my fault, my response was supposed to begin with "yet", not "yes". Unfortunately, I hadn't noticed the error until after the window for editing had passed. I ask your forgiveness, for making you think that I felt you worth of Hell for your belief. Specifically, my post was responding to the overall tone of yours, which suggested that holding the belief that damnation was likely for all non-Catholics was grave presumption, and likely sinful. I merely wished to appeal to His Holiness to show that such a contention was licit.
Of course, I do not believe that you are in danger of Hell simply because you hope for the salvation of someone's soul, however unlikely it may be objectively. Such a hope, while likely futile as His Holiness said, is a reflection of the Father's desire that all men should be saved. However, when expressing that hope, especially publicly, it is incuмbent upon one expressing it to temper it with the admission that such a thing was probably unlikely, and that if it occurred it was only by virtue of God's mercy, and through the auspices of His Church.
Another point to remember is, as a Catholic we can judge a person's action, and instruct them according to the teachings of the Church, but we CAN NOT assume they are in Hell after they die. We can hope they saved their soul speaking of this man in the OP.
We may not presume definitively, that is certain. But we must not mistake a lack of certitude for an injunction against conjecture based on reason. Nor should we assume that such conjecture, spoken allowed, is for the purpose of celebrating the possibility of another's damnation. The binary fact of that person's eternal reward is settled at the moment of death; such conjecture is rightly used for the education of others, not for fellowship in a common enmity of another, but as a warning of what that person's actions likely reaped.
I doubt anyone hates this New Vatican II church more than myself and I am not defending it, just to be clear. It is a robber church for sure. It is not the Mystical Body of Christ, and it has no true pope, sitting in the Chair of Peter.
I do not know your mind, so I cannot weigh my hate against yours. But I believe that I, and many others here, could give you a run for your money.
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Matthew, I admit my opinion here might be harsh and I would even accept that I have possibly been uncharitable, but "ridiculous" is too harsh.
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No, ridiculous is spot on.
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The person did not die rejecting God, did he? At least it doesn't sound as if he did according to the facts presented here.
You people who insist on judging the soul of everyone are the ones who should be shaking in your boots right now. Who do you think you are anyway?
True, we have all the dogmas and doctrines of the Church to believe, and the helps to restore us to His saving grace once lost, which returns us to His friendship. Yet, you people insist on skipping over one truth, and that is... the Church teaches us in the end it is not your place to say, who is a friend of God and who rejected Him. To ignore this teaching is to ignore God, His Church and His reward. In other-words the Church teaches us to hope for salvation not despair, and certainly NOT to judge the soul of another.
God gives everyone of us, enough grace to save our souls, it is up to us in the end to cooperate with that grace.
By withholding our personal judgement of what the final judgement of a particular soul does not mean rejecting NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. It just means, it is not your/our place to say if a person died an enemy or friend of God.
Do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul?
BTW Feeneyism is also a NEWCHURCH.
:applause:
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My point is where I said, "do you really think that God is going to send me to Hell, because I have hope that this particular person saved their soul".
Your point to me was...
"Yes it was condemned by Pius IX"
I realize I am not as versed as you, but I fail to how you arrived at your point.
Well, that's entirely my fault, my response was supposed to begin with "yet", not "yes". Unfortunately, I hadn't noticed the error until after the window for editing had passed. I ask your forgiveness, for making you think that I felt you worth of Hell for your belief. Specifically, my post was responding to the overall tone of yours, which suggested that holding the belief that damnation was likely for all non-Catholics was grave presumption, and likely sinful. I merely wished to appeal to His Holiness to show that such a contention was licit.
Of course, I do not believe that you are in danger of Hell simply because you hope for the salvation of someone's soul, however unlikely it may be objectively. Such a hope, while likely futile as His Holiness said, is a reflection of the Father's desire that all men should be saved. However, when expressing that hope, especially publicly, it is incuмbent upon one expressing it to temper it with the admission that such a thing was probably unlikely, and that if it occurred it was only by virtue of God's mercy, and through the auspices of His Church.
Another point to remember is, as a Catholic we can judge a person's action, and instruct them according to the teachings of the Church, but we CAN NOT assume they are in Hell after they die. We can hope they saved their soul speaking of this man in the OP.
We may not presume definitively, that is certain. But we must not mistake a lack of certitude for an injunction against conjecture based on reason. Nor should we assume that such conjecture, spoken allowed, is for the purpose of celebrating the possibility of another's damnation. The binary fact of that person's eternal reward is settled at the moment of death; such conjecture is rightly used for the education of others, not for fellowship in a common enmity of another, but as a warning of what that person's actions likely reaped.
I doubt anyone hates this New Vatican II church more than myself and I am not defending it, just to be clear. It is a robber church for sure. It is not the Mystical Body of Christ, and it has no true pope, sitting in the Chair of Peter.
I do not know your mind, so I cannot weigh my hate against yours. But I believe that I, and many others here, could give you a run for your money.
Thank you for your explanation, I understand; actually some good came out of it, since I looked up and read the entire QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE.