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Author Topic: A Natural Family Planning Thread.  (Read 4585 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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A Natural Family Planning Thread.
« on: June 04, 2009, 05:03:09 PM »
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  • Last night I was reading a forum at Angelqueen on the subject and was frustrated with the responses.  One guy who was defending NFP was asked for the "grave reasons" under which a priest might advocate its use.  He didn't respond, and people assumed he had backed out of the fight.  They also assumed that there were never any grave reasons for using NFP.

    Well, here is an example of a grave reason.  Imagine a woman named Betsy and her husband Tim who have had six or seven children -- or even three or four!  Dear old Betsy is worn out and exhausted and inadvertently ignoring the needs of her husband, because she is busy with the kids.  She comes on a traditional Catholic website for help and everyone tells her about their great-great-great-grandparents in Scotland who had 68 kids and lived in the sewer and were happy.  Betsy is in despair, she's a terrible mother and terrible Catholic, etc.  She determines to have more kids.  This is because Betsy, despite her self-doubt, is a good Catholic trying to do what she is told.

    Now, let's say the husband works at an aerospace company where his job is a bit precarious, because of the influx of youth.  One such youth is Rachel the Redhead, 28 years old and fresh out of graduate school, who wears a fetching set of cat-eyed eyeglasses and nibbles ever so adorably on a pen when she works out her problems of engineering calculus.  Rachel is not only pretty and young but she has the same interests as hubby.  They've started to have lunch together.  Tim can still smell her perfume when he drives home.  What a team they would make!  Rachel revitalizes him, she gives him ideas, she makes him want to work again!  Tim has come alive!

    Tim so far has fought the good fight and repressed his urges for Rachel.  But he IS being tempted, and he IS only human.  Then he comes home to Betsy, who is looking a little ragged, and who is also sinking into a slight depression.  She spends most of her day on the couch staring off into space.  There is a feeling of torpor about her.  Yes, I know Catholics SHOULD never fall into depression, just as Catholics SHOULD never have eyes for anyone but their wife.  But they do.  

    Tim now begins to lose his faith.  He looks around at the kids and feels no pleasure in their existence.  He is sick of the burdens that Catholicism is imposing on him, and wondering if life with Rachel wouldn't be more pleasant.  Every time he thinks of Rachel he imagines romping about with her on a beach in the Bahamas, free of all cares, then retreating to a cabana at night to cuddle up and solve equations together in their pyjamas.  In short, Tim is losing it, the devil has him right in his grip.  A Mel Gibson-style fall is in the offing.

    Tim makes one last valiant effort to rekindle his love for his wife.  He tries to be romantic with her.  Betsy, as we have seen is a good Catholic who wants to perform the main duty of a Catholic wife, which is child-bearing.  So she says teasingly, "Ready for another?" and he has to admit to himself that he is not.  At this point, he wants sex, plain and simple.  And he doesn't want "Honey, angle yourself so the sperm has easier entry to the egg" sex.  He wants to feel loved and comforted.  He is scared that he is drifting away from his family and he needs his wife to help him without putting even more pressure on him than he already has.

    It's all very well to say that Tim SHOULD want another kid at this moment but what if he DOESN'T?  The marriage is in danger -- Tim is even saying he made a mistake and should never have had this many kids.  Should Betsy refuse his request to satisfy his urges?  Should she tell him, "No, dear, if we're not intending to have a kid, we should be celibate.  That is what Jesus would want."  Tim would be in Rachel the Redhead's bed the very next day.  Betsy would be failing to protect her marriage, and failing to try to keep the father of her family in the family home and to avert his midlife crisis.

    We must learn to differentiate the ideal from the real.  Betsy is a better Catholic than Tim.  But she is still not ideal.  And her marriage is definitely not ideal.  That's because no marriage is!  The girls who are all adamantly opposed to NFP in any circuмstances, I suspect, are young and naive.  I also suspect they have a nasty shock coming to them as repayment for their arrogance, when they see that even their SSPX-attending husband is not perfect.  Or that they themselves are not perfect. ( I already know they're not, because if they were, they wouldn't say "una cuм" for Anti-Christ!   :scared2: ) <-- I'm leaving this here as an example of breaking the rules. If you can't avoid the random sedevacantist jabs, I'll have to move your posts to the "Crisis" section.

    I doubt there are many couples in the history of Christianity who haven't had relations from time to time without aiming at pregnancy.  Back then the excuse would be "Oops, I slipped out."  This is why the Church has always taught that couples are "not to be impeded" who have sex without procreation in mind.  The problem with NFP is that it is vague, and if used incorrectly, could lead to onanism.  Many people are confused about it and think it gives them license to have a childless, fruitless marriage.  It doesn't.  

    This story of Tim and Betsy and Rachel the Redhead is an example of a grave condition.  I could think of many more.  But all catechisms before Vatican II talk about the satisfaction of the sɛҳuąƖ urge being one of the duties of a wife or husband.  Therefore, even in the catechism, it clearly STATES, not just implies, that there are other reasons for sɛҳuąƖ relations in marriage than childbearing.  

    Childbearing is the PRIMARY reason for marriage.  A couple who marry without the intent to have children, just to rub against each other enjoyably but fruitlessly for forty years, obviously do not understand Catholicism and are engaging in onanism.  But sex is also there for the relief of urges and for intimacy.  That is the SECONDARY reason.  Where you slip into mortal sin is if you put the secondary reason where the primary reason should be.  NFP should be something that is used in a crisis point of a marriage, as described above.  As in all things, we must watch ourselves, weigh our own motives, and discuss everything with our sedevacantist priest.

    The war against NFP is just another version of the Feeneyite controversy.  It is an overreaction to the liberality of the Novus Ordo.  I believe the word is "overscrupulosity."  Or "fanaticism."


    -- Michael de la Sota


    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline DeMaistre

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #1 on: June 04, 2009, 05:13:37 PM »
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  • Interesting, to say the least....


    Offline clare

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #2 on: June 04, 2009, 05:20:58 PM »
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  • A good Catholic may even reluctantly submit to a contracepting spouse.

    Quote
    59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.


    Casti Connubii

    Offline Matthew

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 06:16:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Last night I was reading a forum at Angelqueen on the subject and was frustrated with the responses.  One guy who was defending NFP was asked for the "grave reasons" under which a priest might advocate its use.  



    You were "frustrated" with a thread on NFP?
    *rimshot*

    I couldn't resist.
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    Offline Classiccom

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #4 on: June 04, 2009, 07:43:44 PM »
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  •  This will shock you, but you have to salute the Infallibles on holding firm on this Catholic teaching on birth control. The Catholic Church is right, the rest of the world is wrong. That is the way the Church should be - separate from the pagan world, not ecuмanism with evil.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 09:17:13 PM »
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  • The St. Gertrude the Great group is on very shaky ground on these issues.

    The Terry Schiavo issue in particular is very troubling.

    They seem to have strayed outside the Church.




    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 09:40:48 AM »
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  • I can tell you about people who were conceived despite the fact that their parents used NFP.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 11:27:32 AM »
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  • NFP should never be used unless you get a dispensation from your confessor. Period.

    Grave, at least in my understanding, is financial catastrophe (meaning, perhaps, you live in a cardboard box, and this would be up to the discernment of the priest, as to what a "catastrophe" would be), husband beating up a wife and risking the life of the child through said beatings,  or a grave medical condition/medication that the wife is absolutely obligated to take.

    I really can't think of anything else that would fit into that category, but it would be up to the confessor.

    People can practice continence, but it has to be a mutual agreement between both parties, and can be severed at anytime for any reason by either one.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 09:20:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    A good Catholic may even reluctantly submit to a contracepting spouse.

    Quote
    59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin.


    Casti Connubii

    Friends, I need further perspective on this one.

    My highlighting the above comment combined with a few personal disclosures on another thread might give you a clue of my situation. I'm ashamed to even bring it up on a Traditional Catholic forum.  In fact, I've never disclosed my predicament until now, and I've been participating in Traditionalist blogs and forums for the past three years.  Truth be told, I've always felt a bit intimidated by Trads because of this deep and hidden shame of mine.

    The quote above from Casti Connubii gives me a slender thread of hope that I've never had.  Sorry if I'm being a bit elliptical here, but there is a limit to what I feel comfortable disclosing.

    Who am I to judge the pope, hell-bound soul that I am. I feel the devil at my heels.  He's going to drag me into hell.  Please pray for me.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 11:41:17 PM »
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  • No, the devil is not going to have me.

    I peeked at this thread in fear and trembling (my shame and despair deepen when I hear Trads criticize NFP -- "Lord, what, then, must they think of someone like me?"), and now I have renewed hope and strength to carry on the battle, a battle that has been bitter and long lost until now.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline DeMaistre

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 11:45:07 PM »
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  • The devil is like a nasty dog on a chain, the brute can't harm you unless you purposely go close enough to him.


    Offline Matthew

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 11:56:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    NFP should never be used unless you get a dispensation from your confessor. Period.

    Grave, at least in my understanding, is financial catastrophe (meaning, perhaps, you live in a cardboard box, and this would be up to the discernment of the priest, as to what a "catastrophe" would be), husband beating up a wife and risking the life of the child through said beatings,  or a grave medical condition/medication that the wife is absolutely obligated to take.

    I really can't think of anything else that would fit into that category, but it would be up to the confessor.

    People can practice continence, but it has to be a mutual agreement between both parties, and can be severed at anytime for any reason by either one.


    Is that your opinion, or do you have references?

    I don't want this to sound like another forum, but you sound a bit too strict regarding "when it's permissible".

    Personally, I read "The Catholic Marriage Manual" which was printed before Vatican II -- and I don't think NFP was portrayed as being THAT off-limits. The book did mention that we should be generous and trust God to provide for your family, etc.

    I do agree that many people complain about "economic woes" when they should just learn how to downsize, be frugal, live with less, etc.

    Just for starters, a big family is very difficult if the wife can't stay home -- if she can't cook meals at home, take care of the kids, etc. then having kids WOULD be more difficult and expensive.

    But, generally speaking, children are not NEARLY as expensive as the modern world would have you believe.

    They don't need their own room, a TV, cell phone, new clothes, tons of toys, daycare, vacations, summer camp, and a college education handed to them on a silver platter.

    Matthew
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 12:18:27 AM »
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  • I don't agree with 100% of it, but Raoul's post makes some very good points that are in touch with reality; however, if we dwell on weakness and exceptions to the rules, many will take those and then go even further toward what is easier.

    I prefer to stick with the rule itself and then let individuals approach their own situations with a bit of fear in breaking the rule. (Of course, seeking approval from a good confessor is always a good idea!)

    It's like the example of those who shoot for purgatory will often miss while those who shoot for Heaven can hope to at least achieve a short stay in purgatory.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 01:51:38 AM »
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  • Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    A Natural Family Planning Thread.
    « Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 02:02:05 AM »
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  • The people I knew that used NFP only used it for birth control. I'm telling you from as many people as I've talked to, even those with quite a few children, that they are USING IT TO PREVENT GETTING PREGNANT. I know people that tried to justify "spacing children" and this kind of nonsense. GOD opens wombs. God sends children when HE wants to, when it's HIS Will, and you have a free will to either comply with His Will, or do your own thing. NFP is doing your own thing, without chemicals...

    I guess, you could say, it's "organic birth control." Doesn't make it any less of "birth control" than any other method, you just don't have any chemicals, hormones, or antibiotics (or abortifacients) to do the dirty work for you.

    I'm pregnant with number five here, and we're not that well off, but I'm telling you, I would rather be poor and have children that have the faith and no stuff, than a parent that has a lot of stuff using NFP, and making all kinds of excuses why I don't think God should send me more.

    And to truly submit to the Divine Will in your state in life, is to cooperate with God when HE wants to send you a child, not when it's convenient for you.

    And in the papal encyclicals teaching about this subject, CONTINENCY is mentioned. That is NEVER wrong, and is actually very GOOD for a marriage, so long as BOTH parties agree to it, and it can be stopped at the whim of either spouse. Usually, that is used to increase piety, but to just abstain from the act when YOU KNOW you will get pregnant, to me, is not only dishonest, but GOING AGAINST THE PRIMARY END of marriage....

    And no doubt, my confessor goes by this in his council, because it IS Church teaching.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,