Author Topic: A lot of Trad Catholics are generally uncritical of the modern society. (Read 10786 times)

Zenith · « **on:** September 04, 2011, 12:35:04 AM »

In my experiences of Traditional Catholics, SSPX and sedes, I have found them to be very uncritical and sheep like in their views of our modern political and social systems.

This is a great frustration :dwarf: for me as I can't understand how a Traditional Catholic cannot help but be highly critical of the curruption and cօռspιʀαcιҽs in our modern world.

Why is it that someone can come to the conclusion that there are serious corruption issues in the Church, though they cannot see that the same is possible in the modern world?

If the Mystical Body of Christ (The Church) can be corrupted by the outside world, why is it so hard to believe that the outside world which is the devil's playground is not also susceptible to cօռspιʀαcιҽs?

There are so many trads (including some on this forum) that look at you like you are a nut case if you say that you think 9/11 was an inside job or that generally shudder and change the subject quickly when they hear theories that their governments are slowly reducing their freedoms.

What is wrong when you can see problems in the Church but all you smell are roses in our modern society?

Where did the corruption that currently infects the Church come from if not the outside world?

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2011, 12:44:32 AM »

Quote from: Zenith

What is wrong when you can see problems in the Church but all you smell are roses in our modern society?

I guess I'm generalizing, but I'd say either they are simply afraid of the truth and questioning what has been sold to them as reality. But I think more often than not, it's because they have turned the state (and all it's trappings) into their god. It's more easier to do than what most people imagine, and it's very clear when you observe the participants of modern day politics. All our leaders are godless, and any religious expression on their part is totally superficial.

Zenith · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2011, 12:57:25 AM »

True CS.
Actually I just had a thought and another factor that contributes to this is that a reasonable number of Trads still watch TV and that would definitely play a part and forming the sheep-like mentality.

I think university also does a good job of this in programming people's thought process.

I think I am fully with Bishop Williamson in his regard for modern universities.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2011, 01:33:42 AM »

Quote from: Zenith

True CS.
Actually I just had a thought and another factor that contributes to this is that a reasonable number of Trads still watch TV and that would definitely play a part and forming the sheep-like mentality.

I think also some might have eaten enough propaganda in the 40's-50's to last them into old age, so not having a TV doesn't do them much good in that regard.

Daegus · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2011, 12:47:04 PM »

Quote from: Zenith

In my experiences of Traditional Catholics, SSPX and sedes, I have found them to be very uncritical and sheep like in their views of our modern political and social systems.

These people are called false traditionalists. Don't be like them.

Quote

This is a great frustration :dwarf: for me as I can't understand how a Traditional Catholic cannot help but be highly critical of the curruption and cօռspιʀαcιҽs in our modern world.

Of course you feel this way. You, at least, don't appear to be a false traditionalist.

Quote

Why is it that someone can come to the conclusion that there are serious corruption issues in the Church, though they cannot see that the same is possible in the modern world?

False traditionalists are usually in love with the Church and all of her externals and have the appearance of being zealous and detached, but in essence they don't really want or even try to separate themselves from the modern world as Christ would want.

Quote

If the Mystical Body of Christ (The Church) can be corrupted by the outside world, why is it so hard to believe that the outside world which is the devil's playground is not also susceptible to cօռspιʀαcιҽs?

The Church cannot be corrupted by the outside world. That is an error, just like saying that the Church needs to be "restored". The Church is indefectible. Those who are inside of the Church can certainly be corrupted, but not the Church herself. She is the immaculate Spouse/Bride of Christ, eternally modest and faithful to the Son of God.

Unfortunately, most of the false traditionalists don't really want to take the time to think complex issues through. As long as they have the externals, nothing else matters. It's like playing dress-up. "Let's dress him up as Bishop, him as Priest, him as Deacon and we'll call this little ceremony of ours The Mass"..

Quote

There are so many trads (including some on this forum) that look at you like you are a nut case if you say that you think 9/11 was an inside job or that generally shudder and change the subject quickly when they hear theories that their governments are slowly reducing their freedoms.

That has more to do with being some variation of a modernist (i.e. Americanist) than it does with being traditional. They couldn't possibly fathom that the people who run their country might not actually have the purest of motives.

Quote

What is wrong when you can see problems in the Church but all you smell are roses in our modern society?

Modernism is like a thick smog that allows you to see that which is in close proximity to you, but not that which is a little further.

Quote

Where did the corruption that currently infects the Church come from if not the outside world?

Most people don't even get so far as to even contemplate such a question. That is the unfortunate reality of false traditionalism and being a false traditionalist.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2011, 03:24:52 PM »

Those of us who became fully cognizant of the reason for the subversion of the Church by our knowledge of history and the anti-Christian conspiracy tend to have a different way of looking at things than those who came to traditionalism by their devotion to pious worship.

And those who are raised trad often have no deep comprehension at all of either.

Caminus · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2011, 04:17:30 PM »

Quote from: Zenith

In my experiences of Traditional Catholics, SSPX and sedes, I have found them to be very uncritical and sheep like in their views of our modern political and social systems.

This is a great frustration :dwarf: for me as I can't understand how a Traditional Catholic cannot help but be highly critical of the curruption and cօռspιʀαcιҽs in our modern world.

Why is it that someone can come to the conclusion that there are serious corruption issues in the Church, though they cannot see that the same is possible in the modern world?

If the Mystical Body of Christ (The Church) can be corrupted by the outside world, why is it so hard to believe that the outside world which is the devil's playground is not also susceptible to cօռspιʀαcιҽs?

There are so many trads (including some on this forum) that look at you like you are a nut case if you say that you think 9/11 was an inside job or that generally shudder and change the subject quickly when they hear theories that their governments are slowly reducing their freedoms.

What is wrong when you can see problems in the Church but all you smell are roses in our modern society?

Where did the corruption that currently infects the Church come from if not the outside world?

I wonder if Catholics were saying the same things of other Catholics during the first three hundred years of the existence of the Church. You know, back when Christians were persecuted and martyred by seriously corrupt pagan governments. Somehow Tele's secret gnosis about secular history and anti-Christian forces strikes me as a bit odd, for anyone who has divine faith and some degree of virtue understands the emnity between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan on earth.

Sigismund · « **Reply #7 on:** September 04, 2011, 04:27:27 PM »

Uncritical? REALLY? They seem pretty darn critical of the world as it is to me. How do you think they could do a better job of it?

I am not being contentious here. I am genuinely surprised by this statement and would really like clarification.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** September 04, 2011, 04:31:19 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Somehow Tele's secret gnosis about secular history and anti-Christian forces strikes me as a bit odd, for anyone who has divine faith and some degree of virtue understands the emnity between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan on earth.

There's nothing secret about it - I came to being fully aware of the theological defects of the Newchurch by coming to the writings of Bishop Williamson, Archbishop Lefebvre, and even Fr. Schmidberger's pamphlet "The Time-Bombs of Vatican II."

There's absolutely no "secret gnosis" that is not to be found in SSPX writings.

However, given the the abject departure of the SSPX leadership from its former position of teaching the Catholic position on such matters, it doesn't surprise me at all that they attempt to censor the Archbishop's sermons - because he so often speaks about the Church's enemies.

Knowing that there are two cities, the City of God and the City of Man is one thing.

Knowing that Leo XIII speaks particularly of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in relation to this concept is something entirely different.

Knowing that America is fundamentally masonic and anti-Christian requires more than knowing that there are two cities.

Do most trads really act as though America is an anti-Catholic, anti-Christian state with a virulently anti-Catholic (and in particular Jєωιѕн) media and therefore has an anti-Christian culture?

Are they aware of it, do they hear it articulated from the pulpit?

This is all very simple Caminus. It might only be "secret knowledge" for the people who are unable to read Archbishop Lefebvre's sermons because of the SSPX's suppression of its founder's teachings.

Zenith · « **Reply #9 on:** September 04, 2011, 05:05:29 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

I wonder if Catholics were saying the same things of other Catholics during the first three hundred years of the existence of the Church.

No I actually think that the early Christians probably had a far better idea of who was persecuting them than modern Catholics.

Quote

You know, back when Christians were persecuted and martyred by seriously corrupt pagan governments.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that our modern governments are not seriously corrupted?

I think the only reasons why we are not persecuted more is because people are afraid to speak out and/or the governements of "democratic" countries try not to make the persecutions to obvious in case they may appear intollerant. They wouldn't want to reveal their true colours of a "the state is god" dictatorship as that may wake the sheeple up a little too much to what is going on.

Quote

Somehow Tele's secret gnosis about secular history and anti-Christian forces strikes me as a bit odd, for anyone who has divine faith and some degree of virtue understands the emnity between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan on earth.

That is not evident in a lot of trad circles judging by the their reactions to "conspiracy theories". They generally don't like to talk about them as they don't want to be thought of as different or going against the grain.

Matthew · « **Reply #10 on:** September 04, 2011, 05:37:36 PM »

Zenith, you're definitely on to something.

If thinking for oneself, setting oneself apart from the world, and considering the existence of evil men conspiring together were more popular, I'd have a lot more friends than I do!

Caminus · « **Reply #11 on:** September 04, 2011, 06:46:00 PM »

Zenith, you are confounding conspiracy theories with the general knowledge of the wickedness of the world and using the reception of the former as a judge of the latter; not a very trustworthy rule by which to judge. The priesthood is not nearly specific enough for Tele, but a hundred sermons about how evil America is wouldn't amount to a single sermon on how to root out the evil that is within himself first. And the same Pope that condemned Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Americansim and linked the former with a particular manifestation of the kingdom of Satan, didn't share the same sentiments regarding the United States as a country. Sorry, Catholic priests have never been "Alex Jones" preachers. Here's a newsflash: All of the World is Anti-Catholic. All of your posts are imbued with a bitterness that stems from an intense self-seeking satisfaction. Maybe you could find a sect that better suits your tastes.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #12 on:** September 04, 2011, 06:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Sorry, Catholic priests have never been "Alex Jones" preachers. Here's a newsflash:

You have no right to compare any of our opinions to those of Alex Jones, but there are plenty of priests who have written on conspiracy theory, and who have mentioned it in their preaching. A cursory examination of the past publications of the SSPX will show that. In fact Catholic priests, since the beginning have been some of the most important expositors of conspiracy theory. And as Pius IX said - the predecessors of the Popes have denounced them from the beginning in Israel.

America as a country is not the same thing as a America as a system, government, or society. There can be good in a nation while recognizing the evil that is dominating it. Since you yourself refuse even to vote because the country is not Catholic, your position is inconsistent, to say the least. But then again all the neo-SSPX apologists end up taking both sides of the issue - always showing hatred for those who point out the departure of the SSPX from its original positions while reverting to something effectively the same as the SSPX critic's position when not in "defend the society" mode.

It's the same way that many SSPX priests usually talk and act as sedes until they are called to defend the official position.

It's how the SSPX publications can call Benedict XVI a "Prefect without Faith" but turn around and excoriate sedevacantists for saying the same thing since the election.

Caminus · « **Reply #13 on:** September 04, 2011, 09:43:23 PM »

I also hold, with St. Thomas, that it is a form of sacrilege for Catholics to be under the political dominion of infidels. The only reason why you see so many "inconsistencies" is because you're not making proper distinctions and lack the balance and proportion to make prudent judgments about priests and opinions, as if there were any sort of "official" anything regarding these matters from which there has been a pretended "departure."

And in the spiritual life, the corruption of governments and systems holds very little if any concern for the soul; all is encompassed in the "spirit of the world" and all is vanity regardless of what form it takes.

But you retort, Catholics ought to be concerned with the social order. I concede, but assert that your approach is not worth much of anything at all for the only real method for success starts within the walls of the home (where for instance, a detestation for the principles of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ are instilled). All of society stands or falls on parents who are determined to become saints and thus raise their children as such. That is how the Kingship of Christ will be established once again. Until then, all extrinsic efforts, sermons, book writings, etc. will come to naught. So you can brag about your extraordinary "cognizence" of historical phenomena, but in the end, it begins and ends with you.

And the fact that your brother or sister doesn't quite see the world for what it is or is still ensared in some kind of vice or imperfection or holds some false opinion or is worldly is no reason to denounce them. If you had an ounce of charity, you would simply pity them and try to help them by your prayers and other good works. There are many wounded souls in our churches; mocking them as pseudo-catholics only betrays your own state of mind and heart.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #14 on:** September 04, 2011, 10:00:05 PM »

Quote

I also hold, with St. Thomas, that it is a form of sacrilege for Catholics to be under the political dominion of infidels.

So you consider the American Constitutional form of government to be sacrilegious. Again, one cannot consider that point of view to be reconcilable with the attitudes of most American trads.

Quote

And in the spiritual life, the corruption of governments and systems holds very little if any concern for the soul

The Social Reign of Christ the King and the abandonment of that teaching has had immense concern for many souls.

Quote

I concede, but assert that your approach is not worth much of anything at all for the only real method for success starts within the walls of the home

People can't just be walled off in their homes. As much as I agree with homeschooling the fact of a hostile world must be dealt with. And to deal with it must be understood. To willfully wallow in ignorance of true political history by claiming it's not essential to know such things is an ostrich approach. It also allows the enemy to gain the upper hand because it deprives Catholics of vital knowledge of the world as it really is.

Quote

And the fact that your brother or sister doesn't quite see the world for what it is or is still ensared in some kind of vice or imperfection or holds some false opinion or is worldly is no reason to denounce them. If you had an ounce of charity, you would simply pity them and try to help them by your prayers and other good works. There are many wounded souls in our churches; mocking them as pseudo-catholics only betrays your own state of mind and heart.

It's not just a matter of seeing things the same way. It's a matter of their aggression against people who remain faithful to the traditional Catholic view of politics - they don't like it because they don't understand it (or worse some do either because they're afraid or hypocrital) and because it's unpopular. I haven't called anyone a "pseudo-Catholic" but if people reject the traditional Catholic view of politics and history out of some desire for expediency then they are stifling the truth.