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Offline Traditional Guy 20

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A criticism of libertarianism...
« on: July 19, 2014, 09:00:22 PM »
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  • Here is a good article by Pat Buchanan about the failures of libertarianism and its own little ideology which it seems cannot live up to the reality. This article is especially important in light of all the recent converts to this libertarian school and how it needs to be emphaseized it is just as much a failure as Marxism.

    Does Libertarianism Lead to Statism?

    "Among the adversaries of Big Government on the American scene, few have proven more principled than the libertarians.

    Believing with Jefferson that that government governs best which governs least, think tanks like Cato and Von Mises institutes can be found in the van of every movement to roll back taxes or reduce state power. Believing in the adage of the old antiwar activist Randolph Bourne, “War is the health of the state,” libertarians have been among the strongest allies of the Old Right in forging a new foreign policy that keeps America out of wars where the vital interests of the Republic are not threatened.

    But on open borders, as on mass immigration, libertarians line up with the Party of Government. And given the consequences of these policies in enhancing state power, the relevant question is why? For on these issues, libertarian principles seem to be leading us directly to Big Government at home and World Government abroad.

    Since the 1950s, the European Common Market has evolved into a monstrous and intrusive socialist superstate – the European Union, the very model for world government, now run by faceless bureaucrats who dictate to Europe’s nation-states. NAFTA and GATT have spawned new supra-national bodies like the World Trade Organization. While immigration has held down the wages of U.S. workers, where has it reduced state power?

    Some 90 percent of the 1.5 million legal and illegal aliens who come here every year are from the Third World. Their crime rate is twice that of the native-born, which translates into diminished security for American citizens and a necessary expansion of state police power – i.e., more cops, judges, courts, jails, prisons.

    As these immigrants are also far poorer than Americans, they are disproportionate users of social services – i.e., health care, food stamps, rent supplements, legal services and general welfare. Immigrants have become the principal propellants of the growth of the welfare state.

    Not only do they consume far more in government services than they pay in taxes, they are the sole reason America must build new schools and hire more teachers, indefinitely. And as many children arrive poorly prepared for school, unable to speak the language, their tests scores pull down the national averages – and those scores are then exploited to make the case for still more money to an NEA-dominated system of public education.

    And this is the reason the GOP, which in 1992 and 1996 called for the abolition of the Department of Education, somersaulted in 2000, and in collusion with an elated Edward Kennedy, voted for a vast expansion of the resources and power of DOE.

    Then, there is the political effect of immigration.

    Of the two national parties, libertarians tend to nest in the GOP. But consider what mass immigration is doing to that party. In 1996, Clinton carried first-time Hispanic voters 15-to-1. He also swept six of the seven major immigrant states: Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, California and Florida – as did Gore, with Florida in dispute. But of the 10 states with the smallest share of immigrant population, George W. Bush carried all 10. And of the 15 with the fewest immigrants, he carried 14.

    Thus does mass immigration not only lead to endless enlargement of state power, it points to permanent minority status for any party of limited government. And thus does the pursuit of libertarian principles, on open borders and ally-ally-in-free immigration, lead to Leviathan, the death of the libertarian ideal.

    With an anticipated 75 million immigrants poised to enter the United States in the next half century – mostly poor folks, far more prolific than our native-born – there will arise an inexorable need for still more police, jails, prisons, schools, laws, rules, regulations, services and restrictions on all Americans at the local, state and national level.

    And so, just as the triumph of libertarian ideas on no-fault divorce accelerated the break-up of families, leading to wives and children thrown into dependency on the state, libertarian devotion to limitless immigration must further enlarge and empower the state. As they stand shoulder-to-shoulder beside Big Government liberals like Clinton, Gore, Daschle and Kennedy – for open borders and mass immigration – libertarians might ask themselves: Who is being had here?

    Are libertarian principles leading inexorably to statist ends?

    And if so, is it time for a long, hard look back at the sacred texts of the classical liberals of the 19th century? Were they perhaps as utopian, naive and mistaken as the Marxists they opposed?"

    http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.wnd.com/2002/01/12479/&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=eCLLU-2hDqW58gGZwICgAQ&ved=0CBQQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGfaGR3DO7QPC2emf7Sgd_O79wkdg




    Offline OHCA

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 09:17:39 PM »
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  • Patrick J. Buchanan is exactly right about this.  He was right on the NAFTA issue 20 years ago too.  We would be a much better country today had we entrusted a couple of terms to him.  His principles & ideas would have united ordinary Americans.  That scared the hell out of everybody in power roles.  Thus, both parties & MSM demonized him, & painted him as an extremist & one who would polarize & divide.  But nothing could be farther from the truth.

    I see a lot in libertarianism as the best bet for weathering the current storm the world is experiencing.  But the libertarian policy on immigration is not one of the favorable things.


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 11:57:09 AM »
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  • It is much more than just the immigration issue, but also the trade and social issues that libertarianism is dead wrong on.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 01:46:13 PM »
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  • Libertarianism, when not tempered by Traditional Catholicism, has many drawbacks.  

    However, considering the options available to us today, it is the best choice remaining.

    Offline OHCA

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 04:27:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Libertarianism, when not tempered by Traditional Catholicism, has many drawbacks.  

    However, considering the options available to us today, it is the best choice remaining.


    Yes--I very much agree with this.  There are many threats to Catholics today, and I see libertarianism as the best way for Catholics to weather the storm, particularly in the US.  There will likely be new battles down the road based on some libertarian tenets (those drawbacks you mention which are at least held by some who think libertarianism is their home) being at odds with Catholicism.  But I perceive the current battles of the magnitude of being for survival & libertarianism being our "temporary" (a century or two) best bet.


    Offline Matto

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 04:57:46 PM »
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  • Even if the libertarians are better than the two major parties they have the problem of almost never being able to win an election.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline OHCA

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 05:56:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Even if the libertarians are better than the two major parties they have the problem of almost never being able to win an election.


    This has been the case.  And contrary to what hardcore libertarians & other 3rd party supporters advocate, I see no benefit in wasting a vote "for the cause."  That said, I really expect to see big libertarian strides in the polls in November--I think some libertarians may actually win.  A lot of loyal republicans (myself included) are getting fed up with the GOP.

    It appears to me that the shrinking of American freedoms & the rise of NASA & other "Big Brother" initiatives has been greatly facilitated by the entrenched 2-party system passing the ball back & forth feigning legitimate game.  Ultimately, libertarians probably wouldn't be any better for Catholics than the status quo.  But I think we could benefit greatly in the short run by disrupting the facade and putting a new party in on the platform of freedom--with neither the experienced adeptness to govern heavy-handedly nor [immediate and/or publicly apparent] desire to do so.

    Offline Nickolas

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 06:44:49 PM »
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  • Libertarians are Pro:

    Abortion
    Drugs
    Prostitution
    Euthanesia

    Traditional Catholics, which of you are also in favor of these things?  How could any of you possibly favor the evil basis for this totally misguided political party, as if politics will solve ANY problems that beset society today?  

    A true Libertarian has no faith, believes in the status of government to preserve their freedoms, versus the Church. In other words, they are without faith except in themselves and you say this is even potentially supportable?  A lie from the pit of hell.


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 08:24:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nickolas

    Libertarians are Pro:

    Abortion
    Drugs
    Prostitution
    Euthanesia

    Traditional Catholics, which of you are also in favor of these things?  How could any of you possibly favor the evil basis for this totally misguided political party, as if politics will solve ANY problems that beset society today?  

    A true Libertarian has no faith, believes in the status of government to preserve their freedoms, versus the Church. In other words, they are without faith except in themselves and you say this is even potentially supportable?  A lie from the pit of hell.


    Politics can solve the problems that beset society today. The problem is cowardice in the face of leftist actions. I agree though that libertarianism is hardly ideal. One can also mention libertarianism supports corporate interests and Big Business therefore it is also against Catholic social justice.

    Milton Friedman believes the same when it comes to social issues as Obama. He thought the "market" should deal with any and all socail issues and the government should be left out of it.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 08:40:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    It appears to me that the shrinking of American freedoms & the rise of NASA & other "Big Brother" initiatives has been greatly facilitated by the entrenched 2-party system passing the ball back & forth feigning legitimate game.  Ultimately, libertarians probably wouldn't be any better for Catholics than the status quo.  But I think we could benefit greatly in the short run by disrupting the facade and putting a new party in on the platform of freedom--with neither the experienced adeptness to govern heavy-handedly nor [immediate and/or publicly apparent] desire to do so.


    Perhaps you need to realize that the last major battle of our lifetime will be "within the culture." To borrow from James Cooper of the American Arts Quarterly, "Seventy years ago, Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci (1891-1937) said that the most important mission of The Left was to capture the culture to secure a Socialist Revolution. After World War II not only art, literature, ballet, and the theatre, but also photography, motion pictures, music, and education was taken over by the liberal Left." In other words the last major battle will be over the social issues and it will be social conservatives vs. social liberals.

    Offline Nickolas

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 09:13:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Quote from: Nickolas

    Libertarians are Pro:

    Abortion
    Drugs
    Prostitution
    Euthanesia

    Traditional Catholics, which of you are also in favor of these things?  How could any of you possibly favor the evil basis for this totally misguided political party, as if politics will solve ANY problems that beset society today?  

    A true Libertarian has no faith, believes in the status of government to preserve their freedoms, versus the Church. In other words, they are without faith except in themselves and you say this is even potentially supportable?  A lie from the pit of hell.


    Politics can solve the problems that beset society today. The problem is cowardice in the face of leftist actions. I agree though that libertarianism is hardly ideal. One can also mention libertarianism supports corporate interests and Big Business therefore it is also against Catholic social justice.

    Milton Friedman believes the same when it comes to social issues as Obama. He thought the "market" should deal with any and all socail issues and the government should be left out of it.


    Trad Guy, that is pure modernist, progressive, liberal BS.  We live in a basically atheistic fallen society.  Friedman be damned.  The Catholic today must only be concerned with the salvation of his and her soul and the souls of his loved ones.  Period.  The world is as lost as water going down a toilet bowl.  Politics will not solve anything because political creatures are just that, creatures and given to power and selfish desire.  

    Where do you learn this stuff, the local political central committee?  The statist will not save anything, regardless of which side it sits.  


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 09:18:56 PM »
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  • Really? That is pure, modernist, progressive, liberal BS? Tell that to the poor working-class whites who see their jobs shipped overseas and replaced by immigrants? Politics and the government is the only way to restore a good, descent society. The problem is the Left has won the day on politics as well as culture and values. What you argue is defeatism and "relying on God" for everything. Even Catholics used to dump Playboys in the sewers and boycott bad films in the movie theatres.

    Offline Nickolas

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 09:24:29 PM »
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  • Don't buy into the world of "jobs".  Life is based on work.  Those who want to work will find some way to do so.  Lets say I am a tool maker.  I am laid off.  Do I scour the job ads for toolmakers?  No, if I want to work, I scour the ads for work, whatever is necessary to pay for food and rent.  

    Stop reading the main stream media news that puts pity on those out of work and praise for programs that give the man something for free.  That is socialistic and puts the state in the position of the bread winner rather than the poor man.  

    PS:  There is no such thing as a "good decent society"  Can you name a time when such existed?  Be careful, the words "good" and "decent" have meaning here.  

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 09:37:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nickolas
    Don't buy into the world of "jobs".  Life is based on work.  Those who want to work will find some way to do so.  Lets say I am a tool maker.  I am laid off.  Do I scour the job ads for toolmakers?  No, if I want to work, I scour the ads for work, whatever is necessary to pay for food and rent.


    I am sure, according to our think-tank welfare queens those manufactoring workers will find computer and technical jobs, instead of those "dead-end jobs of manufactoring" we shipped overseas to Mexico and China. :sarcasm: Only a national economy can bring about a successful nation under nationalism. It is the global economy of today which is going for world government and unfortunately the Right and international socialists both have signed on.  

    Quote
    Stop reading the main stream media news that puts pity on those out of work and praise for programs that give the man something for free.  That is socialistic and puts the state in the position of the bread winner rather than the poor man.


    Obviously everyone should work but anyone who believes that a man does not need help in securing his daily bread if his job is uncertain or if he is out of work has never been poor.  

    Quote
    PS:  There is no such thing as a "good decent society"  Can you name a time when such existed?  Be careful, the words "good" and "decent" have meaning here.  


    Well every decade and century has its good and its bad since there is no perfect society however there are societies that are more evil than others.

    Offline Nickolas

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    A criticism of libertarianism...
    « Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 09:49:59 PM »
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  • Trad guy, your remarks sound like a democratic fund raising commercial.  

    There is not a day goes buy that I do not see a "help wanted"sign on a business.  The job may not pay much , but it is work, a start a something new, and is likely non-union. I really think you have been viewing too many news programs that are geared to secrete pity and support for greater government intervention into everything.  With the liberitarians, they simply want to take off all gloves, anything and everything goes, all for the down trodden.  

    Get involved in any political movement and you will see, not altruism, but greedy mis-deeds on both sides.  Politics is about power and money, period.  The heart of the fallen man is about that.