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Author Topic: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie  (Read 909 times)

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Offline jerm

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A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
« on: January 04, 2020, 11:13:15 AM »
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    • Hi again CI! I've been wondering about a lot of stuff lately, so I figure I might as well ask about all of it here.

    1) I'm worried about the New Rite of Ordination and the changes in the 1962 Latin Mass, so I'm thinking of asking Fr. Ortiz to be my confessor, and make a general confession to him. However, I'm aware of a specific subset of sedevacantists who disapprove of the una-cuм Mass, and I'm a bit scrupulous about that as well. How much merit does the anti-una-cuм perspective have?

    2) Similarly, I've been running into a lot of people from Most Holy Family Monastery on social media. They seem extremely bold and confident in their positions, and like they win every squabble they get into. I imagine that all of you have experience with them as well. What do you think of them?

    3) I saw MHFM bring up an interesting point about friendships with non-Catholics. How should we treat them? Should we actively proselytize to them? Should we have non-Catholic friends?

    4) What is the best way to deal with bad reading (a.k.a., reading heretical materials)? How does one avoid "going down the rabbit hole?"

    5) What are good resources to learn about why Orthodoxy is wrong? I understand the basics of the arguments against it, but I'd like to be able to read, watch, or listen to something with those arguments. 

    God bless!  :incense:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #1 on: January 04, 2020, 11:37:37 AM »
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    • You need to get past the scruples.

    Lesson #1 for a scrupulous person ... do not be paralyzed by "doubt".  If you were "dead certain" that these men are not popes AND you reject the reasoning of the (radical) Dimonds, who argue that you can still assist at una cuм Masses, THEN your conscience would prevent you from attending an una cuм Mass.

    This matter is objectively in doubt and in dispute among Catholics, so it's not just you doubting.

    You MAY therefore act in the state of a doubtful conscience without sin.

    General Confessions can also be a problem for the scrupulous and are usually not recommended for them ... except perhaps once if it's KNOWN for certain that there had been bad confessions.

    I suffered with scruples for a while myself, but I was instantly cured by my spiritual director at the seminary.  He told me that unless I could swear to him before God that I had committed a mortal sin, then I was to treat it as a non-sin or venial at most, not confess it, and go to Communion.  Then he said, since you're doing this out of obedience, God will not hold you accountable in case you make a mistake of bad judgment.  I have never suffered from scruples from that very moment.

    Unless you are certain that attending an una cuм Mass is sinful, just let it go ... and do whatever works for the benefit of your soul.

    Finally, read this on the una cuм issue.  You won't find more dogmatic sedevacantists than the Dimonds, and they argue that there's no issue with attending an una cuм Mass even if an Anti-Pope is being named, and they back up their opinion.

    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/una-cuм-mass/
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #2 on: January 04, 2020, 11:41:26 AM »
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    • Now, despite the fact that I provided a link from the Dimonds, once you finish reading that, as a scrupulous person you NEED TO AVOID THEM.  They have made it their standard practice to denounce everything they disagree with as heresy and pretty much every thought they don't agree with as "mortal sin".  So you exposing yourself regularly to the Dimonds would be like pouring gasoline on the fire.  STAY AWAY FROM THEM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

    My point in linking to the Dimonds about una cuм issue is to say, hey, even THESE guys, the most radical dogmatic sedevacantists you can find, think there's nothing wrong with attending una cuм Masses.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #3 on: January 04, 2020, 11:42:44 AM »
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    • Now, the one contrary point for the probabilist approach I laid out earlier is that we are required to have a "tutiorist" approach (taking the safer choice) when it comes to the Sacraments.  If there is any reasonable/positive doubt regarding their validity, we must avoid them.  Many people hold that there are positive doubts about the validity of the New Order priests and bishops and the New Order Mass.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #4 on: January 04, 2020, 03:10:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 04, 2020, 11:37:37 AM
    You need to get past the scruples.

    Lesson #1 for a scrupulous person ... do not be paralyzed by "doubt".  If you were "dead certain" that these men are not popes AND you reject the reasoning of the (radical) Dimonds, who argue that you can still assist at una cuм Masses, THEN your conscience would prevent you from attending an una cuм Mass.

    This matter is objectively in doubt and in dispute among Catholics, so it's not just you doubting.

    You MAY therefore act in the state of a doubtful conscience without sin.

    General Confessions can also be a problem for the scrupulous and are usually not recommended for them ... except perhaps once if it's KNOWN for certain that there had been bad confessions.

    I suffered with scruples for a while myself, but I was instantly cured by my spiritual director at the seminary.  He told me that unless I could swear to him before God that I had committed a mortal sin, then I was to treat it as a non-sin or venial at most, not confess it, and go to Communion.  Then he said, since you're doing this out of obedience, God will not hold you accountable in case you make a mistake of bad judgment.  I have never suffered from scruples from that very moment.

    Unless you are certain that attending an una cuм Mass is sinful, just let it go ... and do whatever works for the benefit of your soul.

    Finally, read this on the una cuм issue.  You won't find more dogmatic sedevacantists than the Dimonds, and they argue that there's no issue with attending an una cuм Mass even if an Anti-Pope is being named, and they back up their opinion.

    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/una-cuм-mass/
    Do they have access to a non una cuм mass?  Because I tend to think that the Dimond Brothers would be more likely anti-una cuм if they did.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #5 on: January 04, 2020, 05:37:44 PM »
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    • Ladislaus, question for you, and i suffer a bit from scruples myself.

    How can one swear before God that he has committed a mortal sin. To a certain extent doesn’t only God know with ABSOLUTE certainty that full consent of the will was present?

    I treat any grave matter as potentially mortal personally, and avoid communion until I confess in such cases rather than being like “well maybe I’m ok” ....

    Btw I would suggest that for those with extreme scruples avoiding MHFM might be prudent 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #6 on: January 07, 2020, 11:24:09 PM »
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    • 3) I saw MHFM bring up an interesting point about friendships with non-Catholics. How should we treat them? Should we actively proselytize to them? Should we have non-Catholic friends?

    Regarding friendships in general and with non-Catholics in particular, what needs to happen is for the both of you to grow in mutual respect. You respect them and they should respect you. With respect to your non-Catholic friends, I also recommend that you should live the holiness that God is calling you to live so that you could be a light that brings them to conversion.   
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    Offline poche

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #7 on: January 07, 2020, 11:34:15 PM »
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    • 4) What is the best way to deal with bad reading (a.k.a., reading heretical materials)? How does one avoid "going down the rabbit hole?"

    What to do with bad reading would depend on the circuмstances of the literature that you have. If you are required to read heretical material for education or something similar then I recommend that you read it with the light of the Catechism. Let the Catechism be your guide. That way if you read something that contradicts what you see in the catechism then you should disregard it. Let the Catechism be like a filter to you.   
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 11:46:17 PM »
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    • I think friendship with non Catholics is OK provided you don't compromise and aren't being tempted to compromise, *but* you should be sure to share your faith with them, and not try to hide the fact that you believe they are, at a minimum, seriously endangering their souls.  

    IF a particular non Catholic friend is an occasion of sin for you you are better off avoiding them.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #9 on: January 07, 2020, 11:46:58 PM »
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    • What about lying, Poche, and then pretending lies are innocent "mistakes"?

    What about admitting that "mistakes" were intentional?  Intending to serve your "greater idea", you cannot claim accident, but only willful lying.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #10 on: January 08, 2020, 12:01:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on January 07, 2020, 11:46:58 PM
    What about lying, Poche, and then pretending lies are innocent "mistakes"?

    What about admitting that "mistakes" were intentional?  Intending to serve your "greater idea", you cannot claim accident, but only willful lying.
    You are right. I don't recommend that the OP be a liar.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 12:03:58 AM »
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 09:56:45 AM »
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    • The dimond cult followers never win arguments on Twitter. I showed a quote from Fr, Michael Müller Cssr to one of those idiots and they called him a heretic. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #13 on: January 08, 2020, 10:00:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 04, 2020, 03:10:39 PM
    Do they have access to a non una cuм mass?  Because I tend to think that the Dimond Brothers would be more likely anti-una cuм if they did.

    I don't believe they do ... especially not any offered by a non-"imposing" heretic.  Most sedevacantist priests are very much opposed to Feeneyism.  Dimonds opted for the Eastern Rite for some time, where they would show up to receive the Sacraments.  I'm not sure if they still do that.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A Couple of Questions from a Newbie
    « Reply #14 on: January 08, 2020, 10:08:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 04, 2020, 05:37:44 PM
    Ladislaus, question for you, and i suffer a bit from scruples myself.

    How can one swear before God that he has committed a mortal sin. To a certain extent doesn’t only God know with ABSOLUTE certainty that full consent of the will was present?

    I treat any grave matter as potentially mortal personally, and avoid communion until I confess in such cases rather than being like “well maybe I’m ok” ....

    Btw I would suggest that for those with extreme scruples avoiding MHFM might be prudent

    Sorry.  I fell away from this thread.  This advice isn't general advise, but only applies to the scrupulous ... and never to lax consciences.

    This question, how can you swear that you've committed a mortal sin, is definitely a temptation in the mind of the scrupulous.  In most cases, you KNOW when you've committed a mortal sin.  Someone commits fornication.  Someone steals something.  Someone performs some sin of impurity.  Those are obvious.  But scrupulous people tend to be plagued by thoughts, "Did I consent to that thought?  What if I did consent?"  For scrupulous people, if they have to ask the question, "Did I consent?" it's almost never the case that they did.  If the person had consented, they would know darn well that they consented.  Now, of course, you can't always have absolute certainty.  Only God can have that.  But we are only required to operate on moral certainty in our lives.  So, for instance, if a scrupulous person were to deliberately entertain an impure thought, he would know DARN WELL that he did.  So the mere fact that you ask this question, "how can you swear that it was mortal sin", this does in fact suggest scrupulosity.  If a scrupulous person has to ask the question, "what if I consented," the presumption is that they did NOT.
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