Author Topic: 2 small meals on fast days (Read 6820 times)

Disputaciones · « **on:** February 13, 2016, 09:32:25 PM »

The catholic encyclopaedia article about Fasting seems to me to be contradictory and hard to understand. It says there's an "allowance" in the morning and a "collation" at night. It says the collation can be "around 8 ounces", but can the morning allowance be 8oz as well? That would mean you could have a pound of whatever else besides the one full meal.

Are the "collation" and the "morning allowance" the same thing? 2 collations a day?

It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a fast day, but the guidelines in traditio.com, which are the ones i go by, say that meat is allowed in the main meal on a fast day, always.

I have a digital scale so i can weigh anything and be precise. I have read Catholics before V2 weighed their "2 small meals".

Nadir · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2016, 10:33:07 PM »

Quote

Fasting essentially consists in eating but one full meal in twenty-four hours and that about midday . It also implies the obligation of abstaining from flesh meat during the same period, unless legitimate authority grants permission to eat meat. The quantity of food allowed at this meal has never been made the subject of positive legislation. Whosoever therefore eats a hearty or sumptuous meal in order to bear the burden of fasting satisfies the obligation of fasting.

Of course, if you're not at home in the middle of the day, but you are home in the evening, you are not expected to eat at a restaurant at noon. All these rules are able to be adapted to your situation as long as you keep the spirit of the fast (penance).

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good reasons justify one in taking a collation in the morning, dinner at noon, and the morning allowance in the evening, because the substance of fasting still remains intact.

The morning allowance is a second "Collation". So you are allowed one full meal and two collations, a collation being "a light informal meal, e.g. "lunch was a collation of salami, olives, and rye bread"

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about eight ounces of food are permitted at the collation even though this amount of food would fully satisfy the appetites of some persons. Moreover, the attention must be paid to each person's temperament, duties, length of fast, etc. Hence, much more food is allowed in cold than in warm climates, more to those working during the day than to those at ease, more to the weak and hungry than to the strong and well fed. As a general rule whatever is deemed necessary in order to enable people to give proper attention to their duties may be taken at the collation.

Don't be too finicky about weighing food. I have never heard of anybody weighing food before Vatican II. There is no need for precision here. Food intake is flexible in according to your situation. Do you do heavy labour, or a desk job? is it winter or summer where you are? These are some of the things that you have to consider.

OHCA · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2016, 10:45:16 PM »

"lunch was a collation of salami, olives, and rye bread."

Salami? No meat except at the main meal (on days that do not also require abstinence).

Nadir · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2016, 11:25:28 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

"lunch was a collation of salami, olives, and rye bread."

Salami? No meat except at the main meal (on days that do not also require abstinence).

Oh dear! blame the dictionary - that was just a definition of collation, but I should have changed the makin's. Here goes: "lunch was a collation of ~~salami~~ cheese, olives, and rye bread."

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2016, 11:43:29 PM »

Here's the background of the word COLLATION:

It comes from the latin cuм (with) + lectio (reading)

Basically it's supposed to (originally) be a small snack taken during a substantial spiritual reading read to the monks in common.

The amount of food involved vs. reading is shown by the fact they called the meal a "with the reading". Food was basically an afterthought to what was primarily a spiritual reading.

The monks (who obviously fasted a lot) would have a glass of wine during these readings, to give them some nutrition/strength for the days' work, prayer and study. Something besides the one main meal.

But eventually they added a crust of bread so they weren't drinking wine on an empty stomach.

So think about that as you decide what to have for a collation. It shouldn't be mistaken for your main meal, not ever.

But at the seminary we didn't weigh anything either, and no one judged their brethren on how much the others ate for their collations. Each person's body is different. What is adequate for one man would be insufficient for another, and over-eating for a third man. That's why the specifics of fasting were left between you and your spiritual director.

However, the seminary encouraged a certain amount of fasting by having cold cereal OR bread/peanut butter/preserves for breakfast (normally, both were served every morning), no dessert, and the evening meal was meatless (our main meal was always at noon).

Another thing no one brought up yet -- it's hard to pig out on lentil soup. You can only eat so much of one food, especially one that's pretty penitential to begin with, like bread, lentils, beans, etc.

In the realm of food, variety always encourages (and allows) you to eat more. That's why people end up so full at Thanksgiving -- there is so much food, and all of it is desirable.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2016, 04:58:46 AM »

Instead of using a scale, the best way to measure is if you feel satisfied after your small meal. If you just ate your "small meal" and you and don't feel hungry still little bit, you probably did it wrong.

B from A · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2016, 07:40:08 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a fast day, but the guidelines in traditio.com, which are the ones i go by, say that meat is allowed in the main meal on a fast day, always.

Fridays & Ash Wednesday are days of complete abstinence, so meat is forbidden. Thus if the first part of what you wrote above said, "It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a ~~fast~~ day of abstinence," it would be correct. The rest of weekdays of Lent are days of fast and partial abstinence, meaning you can have meat at the main meal, but not the 2 collations - the latter half of what you wrote, above.

I hope that helps.

OHCA · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2016, 08:07:42 AM »

Quote from: B from A

Quote from: Disputaciones
It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a fast day, but the guidelines in traditio.com, which are the ones i go by, say that meat is allowed in the main meal on a fast day, always.

Fridays & Ash Wednesday are days of complete abstinence, so meat is forbidden.

See the very last line of the piece quoted below saying that Saturdays during lent are also days of fast AND abstinence.

Quote from: Binechi

The Law of Fasting and Abstinence *

Imprimatur Patrick J. Hayes, Archbishop of New York, 1921

. . .

4. The times of fasting are: (a) the Ember Days, i.e., Wednesday, Friday and Saturday in a week of each of the four seasons of the year. The purpose of these fasts is to consecrate each season of the year by some days of mortification, to thank God for His graces, ask His blessing upon the harvest, and to pray for those whom it is customary to ordain to the priesthood at those times, (b) The vigils of Pentecost, Assumption, All Saints, and Christmas. These days are called vigils because in ancient times the faithful used to spend the night before them in watching, prayer and fasting, (c) The longest, strictest and most venerable fast of the year is that of Lent, which goes back to the times of the Apostles. It commemorates our Lord's forty days' fast in the desert, associates us with His suffering by the practice of penance, and prepares us for the great feast of Easter. Lent begins with Ash Wednesday and terminates at noon on Easter Saturday. 5. The days of both fasting and abstinence are: (a) Ember Days; (b) the vigils mentioned above: (c) Ash Wednesday and the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent.

. . .

Disputaciones · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2016, 08:19:55 AM »

Quote from: OHCA

Quote from: B from A
Quote from: Disputaciones
It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a fast day, but the guidelines in traditio.com, which are the ones i go by, say that meat is allowed in the main meal on a fast day, always.

Fridays & Ash Wednesday are days of complete abstinence, so meat is forbidden.

See the very last line of the piece quoted below saying that Saturdays during lent are also days of fast AND abstinence.

Quote from: Binechi

The Law of Fasting and Abstinence *

Imprimatur Patrick J. Hayes, Archbishop of New York, 1921

. . .

4. The times of fasting are: (a) the Ember Days, i.e., Wednesday, Friday and Saturday in a week of each of the four seasons of the year. The purpose of these fasts is to consecrate each season of the year by some days of mortification, to thank God for His graces, ask His blessing upon the harvest, and to pray for those whom it is customary to ordain to the priesthood at those times, (b) The vigils of Pentecost, Assumption, All Saints, and Christmas. These days are called vigils because in ancient times the faithful used to spend the night before them in watching, prayer and fasting, (c) The longest, strictest and most venerable fast of the year is that of Lent, which goes back to the times of the Apostles. It commemorates our Lord's forty days' fast in the desert, associates us with His suffering by the practice of penance, and prepares us for the great feast of Easter. Lent begins with Ash Wednesday and terminates at noon on Easter Saturday. 5. The days of both fasting and abstinence are: (a) Ember Days; (b) the vigils mentioned above: (c) Ash Wednesday and the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent.

. . .

When was this changed?

OHCA · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2016, 09:32:40 AM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: OHCA
Quote from: B from A
Quote from: Disputaciones
It also seems to indicate that meat cannot be eaten during a fast day, but the guidelines in traditio.com, which are the ones i go by, say that meat is allowed in the main meal on a fast day, always.

Fridays & Ash Wednesday are days of complete abstinence, so meat is forbidden.

See the very last line of the piece quoted below saying that Saturdays during lent are also days of fast AND abstinence.

Quote from: Binechi

The Law of Fasting and Abstinence *

Imprimatur Patrick J. Hayes, Archbishop of New York, 1921

. . .

4. The times of fasting are: (a) the Ember Days, i.e., Wednesday, Friday and Saturday in a week of each of the four seasons of the year. The purpose of these fasts is to consecrate each season of the year by some days of mortification, to thank God for His graces, ask His blessing upon the harvest, and to pray for those whom it is customary to ordain to the priesthood at those times, (b) The vigils of Pentecost, Assumption, All Saints, and Christmas. These days are called vigils because in ancient times the faithful used to spend the night before them in watching, prayer and fasting, (c) The longest, strictest and most venerable fast of the year is that of Lent, which goes back to the times of the Apostles. It commemorates our Lord's forty days' fast in the desert, associates us with His suffering by the practice of penance, and prepares us for the great feast of Easter. Lent begins with Ash Wednesday and terminates at noon on Easter Saturday. 5. The days of both fasting and abstinence are: (a) Ember Days; (b) the vigils mentioned above: (c) Ash Wednesday and the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent.

. . .

When was this changed?

I believe the main relaxation of the rules came from Montini in 1966. Wojtyla may have further relaxed the rules, but I am not aware of the specifics.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2016, 09:57:04 AM »

Quote

...the Fridays and Saturdays in Lent.

I've never heard of Saturdays in Lent as being fast and abstinence. I thought it was only Ember Saturday in Lent.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2016, 10:17:28 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Instead of using a scale, the best way to measure is if you feel satisfied after your small meal. If you just ate your "small meal" and you and don't feel hungry still little bit, you probably did it wrong.

Right. A scale is meaningless unless you've made rules for yourself. 8 ounces is a full meal for lots of people. It has to be in regards to your activity level and your body type and what you normally eat. For someone who normally eats 3 peanuts for a meal, a smaller meal (or a snack; collation) would be two or maybe one peanut.

Then again, it's 8 ounces of what? It seems to be saying 8 ounces total. So that could be a 1/4 pound hamburger patty and another 4 ounces of bun, lettuce and pickles.

I read somewhere that 4 ounces of meat was the most anyone should have at the main meal on a day of partial abstinence. I can't find that now. But I have a friend who thinks a steak dinner requires a 20-ounce Porterhouse or else it's substandard. So for him, a 10-ounce hamburger would be a "collation" or a snack! I told him about the 4-ounce rule and he said, "I'm not buyin' that."

To keep it in perspective, some restaurants tout a "Quarter pound burger" as though it's a big deal. That's 4 ounces. So most commercial hamburgers are three or maybe less ounces. Even a HALF pound burger is only 8 ounces. So 10 ounces is a really huge hamburger. It needs an oversized bun.

But as you say, the bottom line is "Do I still feel hungry, or am I full?" Because if you're full, and not hungry after a snack or "small meal," then it wasn't really small at all, and you're not really fasting.

.

McCork · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2016, 11:16:06 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Here's the background of the word COLLATION:

It comes from the latin cuм (with) + lectio (reading)

That etymology doesn't sound right. Do you have a source for that?

Nadir · « **Reply #13 on:** February 14, 2016, 02:46:24 PM »

The quote from Binechi is from the Archbishop of New York. To whom is it addressed? Certainly not to the world but to his own diocese. You'd need to get other docuмentation to show Saturday is a day of fast and abstinence.

I have never heard this before, that Saturday is a day of fast and abstinence.

Of course you may make it that way for yourself. In our home, days of fast and abstinence are Wednesdays and Fridays, throughout the whole year. My Mother used to have Wednesday, Fridays and Saturdays as days of fast and abstinence. But the Church law from as far back as I can remember says that Fridays (in Lent only, for Newchurch) and Ash Wednesday are days of fast and abstinence.

Jaynek · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2016, 04:22:03 PM »

It's different in different countries. In England the abstinence days in Lent were Wednesday and Friday but some other countries were Friday and Saturday.