Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Catholic Living in the Modern World => Topic started by: MrsZ on April 18, 2012, 07:45:25 PM
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My daughter had said she wanted to be a K-9 Cop. I was briefly relieved that she'd have to wait until she was 21 to join the police academy. Today however she said she was thinking about joining the Marines.
I'm just devastated. I told her I loved her, that I'd always love her, that I didn't think this was the right thing to do ... I've tried to talk to her in the past about being a cop ... for many of the same reasons. I don't believe it's God's will for women to be in positions of fighting and protecting others, unless it's in self-defense (like the women in the pioneer days, for example).
My H told me that it was her decision and that since I've expressed myself, that now it's time to be supportive of her and support her decision. He said it's about unconditional love. That loving someone unconditionally means that you may not agree with their choices but that you support them and their choices. He also said that it's my opinion that this isn't a good idea and that's it's not our right or place to saying anything more about this or to try to talk her out of it.
I thought that maybe, just once, if her father spoke to her directly about how he didn't want to see her making this decision, she would possibly be moved by his action, that she'd reconsider this.
Two years ago, her brother was thinking about this. I wasn't as upset, although I didn't want him to join .. and ultimately, due to the current admininstration, he decided against it. But who knows. He's having trouble finding employment and he might end up joining as well.
My H accused me of taking this personally and that if a "person's" decision is not in line with my opinion, than I'm not loving them.
So, we're not in agreement here. I don't perceive this as being about me. I perceive this as being a failure to raise our daughter in an environment which made gender roles very clear. That our daughter does not value being a woman....and that's my fault, and her father's fault. She's been a "tomboy" since toddlerhood ... playing with her brother night and day.
My H said we had our chance to make our views known and she's thinking about acting in opposition to them. He's point is that it's too late now.
Has anyone else had this happen and had any conflicted feelings about it? Is it too late? Isn't there something "wrong" with a young, innocent girl joining the Marines?
And mostly: what does it look like to unconditionally love someone and their choices? Am I supposed to become a cheerleader for women in the military?
I need help.
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My daughter had said she wanted to be a K-9 Cop. I was briefly relieved that she'd have to wait until she was 21 to join the police academy. Today however she said she was thinking about joining the Marines.
I'm so sorry.
I'm just devastated. I told her I loved her, that I'd always love her, that I didn't think this was the right thing to do ... I've tried to talk to her in the past about being a cop ... for many of the same reasons. I don't believe it's God's will for women to be in positions of fighting and protecting others, unless it's in self-defense (like the women in the pioneer days, for example).
My H told me that it was her decision and that since I've expressed myself, that now it's time to be supportive of her and support her decision. He said it's about unconditional love.
That's crazy.
That loving someone unconditionally means that you may not agree with their choices but that you support them and their choices. He also said that it's my opinion that this isn't a good idea and that's it's not our right or place to saying anything more about this or to try to talk her out of it.
I thought that maybe, just once, if her father spoke to her directly about how he didn't want to see her making this decision, she would possibly be moved by his action, that she'd reconsider this.
Two years ago, her brother was thinking about this. I wasn't as upset, although I didn't want him to join .. and ultimately, due to the current admininstration, he decided against it. But who knows. He's having trouble finding employment and he might end up joining as well.
My H accused me of taking this personally and that if a "person's" decision is not in line with my opinion, than I'm not loving them.
So, we're not in agreement here. I don't perceive this as being about me. I perceive this as being a failure to raise our daughter in an environment which made gender roles very clear. That our daughter does not value being a woman....and that's my fault, and her father's fault. She's been a "tomboy" since toddlerhood ... playing with her brother night and day.
My H said we had our chance to make our views known and she's thinking about acting in opposition to them. He's point is that it's too late now.
Has anyone else had this happen and had any conflicted feelings about it? Is it too late? Isn't there something "wrong" with a young, innocent girl joining the Marines?
And mostly: what does it look like to unconditionally love someone and their choices? Am I supposed to become a cheerleader for women in the military?
I need help.
It's not too late to express your opposition in the strongest possible terms. Mrs. Z, I think you're seeing the result of being too socially isolated, unfortunately. This is the worst sort of rebellious act.
I bet if your daughter was planning to marry and have a family she would be getting less support. Crazy world!
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It is a shame to see how feminism has practically ruined society.
Your husband is wrong. The ultimate goal of a parent should be to raise their child properly so that their soul may attain eternal salvation. Parents who tell their kids the truth love them, whereas parents who let their kids do whatever they want love themselves. You sound like a good mother, as you rightfully express concern over your daughter buying into the lies of feminism. Even if you are unable to convince your daughter not to join the military, even if she loses respect for you, it is vital that you show your opposition to her decision. I'll pray that your daughter realizes such a move would be a huge mistake.
God Bless.
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My thoughts ...
It's possible that parents can do everything "right" and their child will still act in a way contrary to how they were raised to act and and/or believe. This is called free will, and you're not the first parent to realize that a child will exercise it.
The difficult part is learning to walk that tightrope between disapproving of her choice, but respecting that as an adult she has the right to make it.
This doesn't mean that you must support her unconditionally. There's a big difference between choosing to love someone, and liking/approving of what they do. You can certainly express your views and concerns, while also acknowledging that you realize the choice is your daughter's to make. I've done this many times with my young adult children over the years. I usually start the conversation by saying, "I realize that you have the right to make this decision with or without my approval, but I'd like to tell you why I'm concerned ..."
Acknowledging that I know that they don't need my "permission" to do something usually allows them to let their guard down a bit, often enough to actually listen to my concerns. I learned this technique from my husband, who, as a career military officer, mentored many young soldiers over the years. Often, young adults are not necessarily wanting to make a particular decision, but just need the acknowledgement and affirmation that the decision is theirs to make.
Your husband is right in the sense that you have had a chance to make your views known. I doubt that your daughter is confused over your opinion about women in the military. ;) But it's also possible that she's just tossing this out as a challenge, trying to gauge your reaction.
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but respecting that as an adult she has the right to make it.
Having the freedom to do something doesn't give someone the right to do something.
It's surely morally wrong for a young woman to join the Marines.
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Perhaps researching the effects of the depleted uranium used in most of the munitions now would dissuade your daughter from enlisting. Breathing even a small amount reduces one's life expectancy by decades.
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but respecting that as an adult she has the right to make it.
I agree with Tele. A woman joining the marines is not pleasing to God, and no one has the right to offend God. They have only the free will to do so.
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My daughter wants me to somehow just say "Gee, that's great honey!" She knows and has known what I believe and crazy as it sounds her father and brother have been vocal about their opinion about women as cops, in the military...even about the altarGIRLS, etc.
That's what makes this even weirder because she is blatantly not just rebelling against ME personally, but even against her father, and her brother's opinions about this. And she admires them and obviously wants to be like them in every way. I don't understand this but it makes me think that she's even more confused and damaged than I first suspected.
I take almost all the blame for this because even though I say I believe in wifely submission, that I believe in all things traditional, that I believe in Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church...my actions have not been in line with all that all these years.
I've taken a legalistic approach and I've got some kind of problem with talking too much (nowadays I'm reading that it's a symptom of ADD...who knows) and being very opinionated and controlling and domineering.. and guess what? It's just the recipe for fostering a confused, unhappy girl who doesn't fit in with other girls and is trying to find a place to "fit in."
This isolated life we've lived has been terrible for me and for my daughter. I have been depressed for years because of it and because of deaths in my family and not having friends .. .no one else homeschools here...it's all school and sports. The local parish is full of families where the mother works, sends her kids to public school, is involved in sports ..all girls our daughter knows from youth group are planning on going to college to major in big deal degrees like "environmental biology" or law.
After my response and all this useless talking we did yesterday, I expressed my opinion again, to no avail. My daughter told me that she didn't want to hurt me, she knew what I thought (how could she not?), but she doesn't see joining the marines or police force as a moral issue. She says that she values the concept of being a wife and mother, but that she's too young to consider that now, and that this is what she wants to focus on at this time. She said that if/when she gets married, she would want to stay home to raise her children.
I have tried and tried and tried to reason with her...about the bad aspects of being in that environment, about the increasing masculinization of her aspect and demeanor, about the diminishment of opportunity for her to marry at all, for wasting her 20's. To no avail.
And now I have no support from my H. He doesn't want her to do this, but he's taking the line that she's old enough to make her own decisions now and that we have to support her. He thinks that we can't do much more about it because she KNOWS our opinion on the matter and is choosing to act in opposition to that.
And the thing is, it's not JUST AN OPINION to me. I didn't make this stuff up! But what I think is that because I was legalistic, because I kept failing to act in faith and trust and be a feminine (i.e., submissive, cheerful, happy wife) all these years...it doesn't matter what I SAID.
I've been unhappy because a) I'm melancholic by temperament, b) I've been isolated from the remainder of my family for a decade, c) I've been isolated from friendship and fellowship for as long d) We've lived in a TINY town that has nothing to do and nowhere to go, we have to drive an hour to a larger populated area for shopping and other things, e) my parents died in tragic ways, I have no siblings...and f) while I "believe" in being Christian...it's mostly been an intellectual, legalist assent to the teachings, i.e., the "rules" of the Faith instead of a heart and soul change.
I have failed my family, myself and most especially my God, whom I should love above all things. I have driven my daughter into rebellion against God, against her gender and against her family and against herself.
The despair I feel is unbearable. The fact that there's nothing I can SAY now that will change things. The fact that it was WORDS in fact that helped caused this rift ... that I have depended on MYSELF instead of GOD, that I have labored in the lie of legalism over the truth of Charity...........what a horrible way to learn the lesson of pride and it's murderous effects.
The bottom line here and maybe what we're all thinking: I'm terrified that the next thing after this decision is: "Mom I'm a lesbian."
I need to talk to someone...I need to talk to a Catholic psychiatrist or something. Does anyone know how I can go about finding such a person? I'm going to see about contacting our local priest for a referral. I am absolutely torn apart by this and I realize that more than anything, right now it's me that has a serious, horrible problem .
Please would you be kind enough to pray for me and my family?
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Mrs. Z do you know any young men who might try to set her straight?
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MrsZ, I'll pray for your family. Let us hope that your daughter quickly realizes what a mistake she's making. I think it's unlikely that further arguments will change anything. Ask St. Monica (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10482a.htm) for intercession - if nothing else she will help teach you patience and submission.
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I seriously doubt that your daughter is a lesbian, or even especially damaged or confused. From what you describe about your life and isolation, it appears to me that she views joining the military as the easiest way to escape it. A lot of young people in tiny, go-nowhere towns who don't have the money (or desire) to go to college do the same thing. It may appear to be a radical choice for your daughter (especially in choosing the Marines!), but it's fairly common.
I don't say this as agreeing with your daughter's choice, but just in that I think I understand her thought process.
Is college not an option at all?
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Asking a Traditional priest would be a good idea.
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Is college not an option at all?
Women don't need to go to college if they intend to marry.
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Mrs. Z, your husband's support for your daughter on this is mind-boggling.
There's no use complaining and nagging fruitlessly, but you should entreat her earnestly, and find others to do the same.
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There are many angles to be considered, but one approach might be to research the widespread nature of rape within the military. It has been some time since I read anything on the issue, but it is FAR more common that most seem to fathom -- and it is probably much worse than any official statistics, however jaw-dropping.
IMO, FWIW, joining the US military -- as it now exists in 2012 and as the world gallops headlong toward WW3, etc. -- is an incredibly unwise move for any young man; it is an enormous gamble at best. For young women, joining the 2012 version of the US military is a mistake the magnitude of which cannot be properly understood or expressed.
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Mrs. Z, you've rightly raised your objections. They've been rejected. You've done what you can. Now commend the situation to the will of God.
I recommend meditating upon this repeatedly:
Uniformity with God's Will by St. Alphonsus (http://www.amazon.com/Uniformity-Gods-Will-Alphonsus-Liguori/dp/0895550199/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334859302&sr=8-2)
It's free here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/alphonsus/uniformity.html
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Mrs. Z, you've rightly raised your objections. They've been rejected. You've done what you can.
Would you say that about some other disastrous course of action? To just give up?
Don't be condescending.
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Mrs. Z, you've rightly raised your objections. They've been rejected. You've done what you can. Now commend the situation to the will of God.
I recommend meditating upon this repeatedly:
Uniformity with God's Will by St. Alphonsus (http://www.amazon.com/Uniformity-Gods-Will-Alphonsus-Liguori/dp/0895550199/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1334859302&sr=8-2)
It's free here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/alphonsus/uniformity.html
*Sigh* I don't know who thumbed you down Jit, but I can take a wild guess and probably be right; wouldn't you know it, misogynists aren't open to the will of God.
This was very good advice, and who ever disagree's with it, I would imagine isn't open to the will of God in their own lives, and probably need to read St. Alphonsus Liguori's work more than anyone.
Mrs. Z- you've been prudent. You didn't just stay quiet and let what happen, happen. So Jitpring's advice is very practical.
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*Sigh* I don't know who thumbed you down Jit, but I can take a wild guess and probably be right; wouldn't you know it, misogynists aren't open to the will of God.
It's not good advice to give up if there is a chance of preventing a bad decision.
Consider a woman having an abortion. I guess it would be misogynist and not open to God's will in continuing to entreat a woman not to have one?
You really need to listen to yourself and realize just how stupid and petty you sound in making the comments you do. Really these people telling her to "accept God's will" don't seem to show much concern for the young woman.
What if it were some other sin? Or something that wasn't a sin at all, like wanting to marry a man, and the father was strongly opposed? I don't think we'd be hearing this advice to give up.
The only reason we hear these people urging her to give up is because they think such a decision is somehow okay.
This was very good advice, and who ever disagree's with it, I would imagine isn't open to the will of God in their own lives, and probably need to read St. Alphonsus Liguori's work more than anyone.
Blasphemously claiming to know the will of God and using that as an excuse to tell people to give up is condescending.
Mrs. Z- you've been prudent. You didn't just stay quiet and let what happen, happen. So Jitpring's advice is very practical.
What is practical is what works.
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Sorry Tele- you're too much of a manipulator of words to engage with. I can't see your post, but am sure I'm not missing out on much.
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Sorry Tele- you're too much of a manipulator of words to engage with. I can't see your post, but am sure I'm not missing out on much.
Tele says that Mrs. Z can't just give up. I admit that there is only so much one can do, but I agree that she cannot give up.
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Well, having read the entire thread all the way through, it seems clear that Mrs Z has, in fact, mentioned her reservations on more than one occasion, yet her daughter still seems to be inclined to become a Marine. If this is a decent summation of the situation, Jitpring's advice does not seem amiss, nor does he seem to be advising Mrs Z to "give up." He seems to be advocating trust in God and conformity to his adorable will. Who can argue with that? Much in life does not go the way we want it to; sometimes, the wiser course is to quietly accept that which we cannot change.
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
We are neither called upon to do more than we can or is reasonable within a given situation, nor to bend others to our will, even when we are in the right, desire the best for them, etc. Part of being wise, prudent, etc., is knowing when and how to act, but also when and how to let a situation be, to let those we love do as they desire and see fit, even when it is as clear as the summer sun that they are heading for disaster. In fact, although we should not seek out adversity merely for adversity's sake, adversity happens to be one of life's greatest teachers.
A great deal of our own trouble and frustration in life flows from the fact that others do not think, speak, or act as we would like them to or think they should. The problem, in such instances, is our own, not theirs. We can either choose to let it bother us, perhaps allowing ourselves to be controlled by things and people we cannot and should not try to control, or we can choose a saner, humbler path that facilitates peace of mind and heart and which enables us to be of much greater use, both to ourselves and to those around us.
Even if Mrs Z's daughter goes through with it, this story is not over and there are many different ways that it could proceed and conclude. As for praying for you and yours, Mrs Z, of course.
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Well said Eamon!
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If this is a decent summation of the situation, Jitpring's advice does not seem amiss, nor does he seem to be advising Mrs Z to "give up." He seems to be advocating trust in God and conformity to his adorable will. Who can argue with that? Much in life does not go the way we want it to; sometimes, the wiser course is to quietly accept that which we cannot change.
I never said I disagreed with trusting in God, nor was I the one who thumbed him down. I agree that one must trust in God, all I said was I agree that Mrs. Z can't give up trying. If I had a daughter that wanted to join the marines, she wouldn't hear the end of it from me until she came to her senses.
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Well, having read the entire thread all the way through, it seems clear that Mrs Z has, in fact, mentioned her reservations on more than one occasion, yet her daughter still seems to be inclined to become a Marine.
And what if she wanted to do something else that was evil?
Just throw up your hands, say "Oh, I did my best, it must be God's will"
You people are ridiculous.
Like I said before, if this were some other issue you people wouldn't have this attitude.
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This is another example where we see feminism at work. Where ostensible traditional Catholics think that a girl joining the Marines is not as destructive and evil as it really is.
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I admit that there is only so much one can do, but I agree that she cannot give up.
As you know, ceasing to act directly upon the girl is not necessarily giving up. The seeds have been planted; if/when and how they germinate is in God's hands -- which is exactly why prayer is the key. Each of us and every single aspect of our life is in God's hands; going to Him about this is the single most potent way to produce good results, even if, at whatever stage, the daughter is open to further discussion. I cannot know for certain, but it appears as if further discussion at this time would not serve any good purpose. Then again, that is why it is paramount to seek the light and strength of the Holy Ghost.
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This willingness of you people to acquiesce to this happening is no doubt very similar to many other attitudes the girl is encountering among those she knows. Is it any wonder, with so many people willing to acquiesce, say "it's your decision" etc, that it's hard to dissuade her?
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As you know, ceasing to act directly upon the girl is not necessarily giving up.
True, there is still the option of talking to a Traditional priest about the matter. But Mrs. Z should still try to convince her daughter that it is wrong.
The seeds have been planted; if/when and how they germinate is in God's hands -- which is exactly why prayer is the key. Each of us and every single aspect of our life is in God's hands; going to Him about this is the single most potent way to produce good results, even if, at whatever stage, the daughter is open to further discussion.
This is also true, but one point you are missing is that God wants us to do our part. It's similar to attempting to convert people. If you are trying to convert someone, you don't just say "Ah, well, I'll just leave it in God's hands and let Him convert this person". God often works through people to speak the truth. Same thing here.
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And what if she wanted to do something else that was evil?
Just throw up your hands, say "Oh, I did my best, it must be God's will"
No. Hopefully, a good parent or someone in a position of authority or of greater life experience would counsel her to the best of his ability, realizing all the while that she, like all of us, is endowed with free will and might very well choose to do something that is not actually good for her.
What would you counsel? Handcuffs? Hobble her? Threaten her with being disowned and shunned? What?
You people are ridiculous.
No; it is called being realistic and recognizing that we cannot actually control the thoughts, words, or actions of others. I don't have to and don't want to run other peoples' lives.
Mrs Z has clearly suffered a good deal of vexation because of this situation. It is unlikely that, even if she could speak to her daughter again, she'd be able to present anything new, or do so in a way that was so well done that it changed her daughter's mind. Mrs Z's effectiveness in this matter is directly proportional to her own interior peace and well-being, something which seems to have been adversely affected. I am no psychologist or priest, but it seems that Mrs Z needs, first and foremost, to take care of herself and expel the funk of negativity that, according to her own words, is (or was at that moment) like despair. People in such a state are rarely able to assist others in any kind of substantial way. Mrs Z, not her daughter, is our fellow member. We cannot reach the daughter, but we can try to assist Mrs Z as she tries to deal with a situation that has, to this point, been harmful to her own peace of mind and heart. We can and should pray for both of them, realizing that their hearts, as all hearts, are in His hands.
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This is also true, but one point you are missing is that God wants us to do our part.
I have missed no such thing, especially something so obvious, but I am not here to get entangled in tangential discussions that revolve around whether or not I understand the issue at hand.
Is our part to handcuff adult children to bedposts when they will not do what we want? No. Mrs Z has said her peace -- twice (if not more). Moreover, she is clearly lacking interior peace at the moment. The wiser course is to look after herself and her own interior life, seek light and strength from the Holy Ghost, and place absolute and boundless trust in divine providence. If another opportunity to talk arises, she will thus be much better able to see it, seize it, and, Lord willing, obtain good results.
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The advice here, to acquiesce and "accept God's Will" is simply irresponsible and wrong.
And I'm certain that if this were about some other matter this advice would not be given.
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Is it any wonder, with so many people willing to acquiesce, say "it's your decision" etc, that it's hard to dissuade her?
No one is saying these things -- at least not in the sense that you are implying. Counsel was given; it looks as if it will not be followed. Do yourself (and us) a favor and let it be.
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The advice here, to acquiesce and "accept God's Will" is simply irresponsible and wrong.
Precisely, because God's Will would not be for a woman to join the military.
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Precisely, because God's Will would not be for a woman to join the military.
What happens is God's will, but that doesn't mean God is pleased by sins that led to it or that something that hasn't happened is inevitable so you may as well shut-up about it.
What we're seeing in this society is the absolute unwillingness of many males to impose social pressure on women. If firm social pressure was brought to bear by a wide circle of friends and acquaintances this girl would not likely want to join the military.
Feminists right now control social pressure, and the worst aspect of the situation is the way in which supposedly conservative and "traditional" men give way to them and get angry at men who don't.
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What happens is God's will, but that doesn't mean God is pleased by it or that something that hasn't happened is inevitable so you may as well shut-up about it.
Yes, this is what I meant.
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The complete misunderstanding/misrepresentation of what has actually been said might be entertaining in any other setting. No one has said anything positive about women in the military or that such might be in harmony with God's will, yet some are actually wasting time boxing with that and other shadows. Wonders never cease...
Maybe you are right, Tele. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for us, life is not about whether or not you are right, with respect to this or any other matter. Interestingly enough, the absolutely sound advice that has been offered to Mrs Z in this case would do wonders for you, too, and in this very thread! What I mean is this: you've repeatedly said your peace, some still disagree; going on and on and on about it will not bring them around, particularly because your present manner of argumentation lacks a certain suavity and, therefore, effectiveness. That said, it is time for me to let what I have written stand for itself, allowing things progress however they will.
I must go; I am in the middle of preparing tacos. :chef:
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You people can't shut-up about it, which is why you and S2rea derailed this thread.
Because you're convicted, you know you're giving sanctimonious and bad advice.
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The advice here, to acquiesce and "accept God's Will" is simply irresponsible and wrong.
Precisely, because God's Will would not be for a woman to join the military.
That's the point SS- no one, not I or GV as far as I can tell, have said to "just" accept God's Will". She's spoken out against this and that has been accounted for. No one has said, "don't say anything; just accept it," not in the least. You must take into account the situation and circuмstance being presented here, instead of falling for fallacies being put out others.
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Well said GV, all the way.
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Well said GV, all the way.
Those sorts of comments are his "fix" no doubt.
How sad.
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Well said GV, all the way.
Isn't it funny Telesphorous always victimizes himself by saying how people thumb him down, yet, Tele was the one who just emoted( and I'm sure has done the majority of the other emoting here) by thumbing Wallflower for simply agreeing with someone who happens to disagree with him; this is according to active forum users. What a boob.
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Well said GV, all the way.
Isn't it funny Telesphorous always victimizes himself by saying how people thumb him down, yet, Tele was the one who just emoted( and I'm sure has done the majority of the other emoting here) according to active forum users. What a boob.
Think you've got that reversed as to who is making a big deal about negrep.
I'm not a victim of the neg-rep, I'm a beneficiary. The obsessive vindictiveness and hatred displayed by you people is transparent.
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Well said GV, all the way.
Isn't it funny Telesphorous always victimizes himself by saying how people thumb him down, yet, Tele was the one who just emoted( and I'm sure has done the majority of the other emoting here) according to active forum users. What a boob.
I don't know if he does or if he has a fan or two with active thumbs but yes, I have noticed that. I rarely thumb down. I should try to remember to use the function more, for good and bad, but it always seems to be a lower priority.
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Well said GV, all the way.
Isn't it funny Telesphorous always victimizes himself by saying how people thumb him down, yet, Tele was the one who just emoted( and I'm sure has done the majority of the other emoting here) according to active forum users. What a boob.
I don't know if he does or if he has a fan or two with active thumbs but yes, I have noticed that. I rarely thumb down. I should try to remember to use the function more, for good and bad, but it always seems to be a lower priority.
He does have a fan; one who sent me a PM today, but I will not mention his name for he is at least rational, and not as demented as this fellow.
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I was in the Army, WAC. I was in , in 1971-73. That may seem like years ago, but I can say I've been there and done it, as they say. I got out on marriage. Thank God my husband was in the Air Force during what would consider peaceful times. Now, this is the advise or talk I would give my daughter if she had the idea. 1) The USA military are not peacemakers!! If we can not bring God in as the apostles did, then we are helping the enemy. 2) What are your reasons to go military? There are many things that cross the mind. One, looking for men, and if lesibians, you will find them, and drugs are plentiful, and it is easy to get your records tarnished if you are around them or just by wrong place, and wrong timing. Some go in for education, others for the travel and romance of the idea and today, a job. I know that maybe one fourth of the women are military for the vocation such as medical field. The others, and I can say this, are not there for the vocation. For a young lady to go military she needs good foundation with God, if not, there is too much occasion of sin in the military. 3) If you still want to join, look into all the services. See if you should change your mind, what ways you can get out. I got out on marriage. I can tell you things are worse then it was for me. There is coed and that is so rotten!! And if three fourths of the military are not there for the vocation, the trouble is very thick. There is even more going on for those who go to war torn countries and the shots (God only knows what they can do and you have heard soldier ѕυιcιdєs. Many prayers to you and the family. None of our children went military and none of them ever thought of it, Thank God. I know this comes over as negative, but the USA is an enemy to other countries, we do not win wars.
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Tele makes a good point, in that this girl's ambition is not just lacking in prudence, but is in fact evil. MrsZ is acutely aware of this herself - to her credit.
The urge to say something that seems comforting and wise, like "you tried, now it's all in God's hands," is strong, I know; I fell prey to it myself on page one. And while ultimately true it can in some cases work to condone a capitulative attitude.
MrsZ's family and friends should show that they strongly disapprove of her daughter's ambitions. They should be very angry about this.
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St. Francis de Sales:
None of the thoughts that render us anxious and agitated in spirit in any way come from God, Who is the Prince of Peace. These are the temptations of the enemy and consequently one must reject them and not take them into account.
From the extensive section by St. Francis in:
http://www.amazon.com/Searching-Maintaining-Peace-Small-Treatise/dp/0818909064
Mrs. Z, you've voiced your disapproval. You've done your duty. As the Forgiving Father let the Prodigal Son go out into the world to taste its poison - since this son demanded to taste this poison - so you must let your daughter taste this poison of the world. Reject any hint of hysteria. Commend the whole situation to God.
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The advice here, to acquiesce and "accept God's Will" is simply irresponsible and wrong.
And I'm certain that if this were about some other matter this advice would not be given.
If Mrs. Z was writing that her daughter was pregnant and seeking an abortion (as per a previous example you gave) then absolutely everyone would be right to tell her to keep urging her daughter not to do such an evil and mortally sinful act.
However, her daughter is talking about joining the military. Unwise? Yes, but hardly a sinful action.
Mrs. Z has talked to her daughter extensively about this matter. Her daughter has acknowledged her mother's feelings and stated she doesn't want to hurt her, but it hasn't changed her mind. In addition, Mrs. Z's husband appears to want her (Mrs. Z) to drop the subject.
In this case, it appears that accepting that (1) our children have free will that they will often choose to exercise in opposition to our own, and (2) praying for the best outcome and that God's will be done are really the only options that Mrs. Z reasonably has left to her. To do otherwise would be going against her husband's wishes.
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Having seen what effects the military can have on some Trad boys, it would be a rare exception where a man could join the military without falling into the habits of vicious company.
It's unbelievable to me that any decent man could complacently let his daughter be shipped off to such a thing, knowing what things are like these days.
Zenith had some good posts about how bad the military is. I suggest some of you refer to them.
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Dear Mrs. Z,
God Bless you.
God Bless your Daughter.
You are going through an awful experience.
I know a lot about these matters and I am willing to help you with both Prayers and advice.
Firstly, you must keep praying.
Do not allow the devil to discourage you from Prayer and from Trust in God.
Secondly, are you CMRI, or sspx, or what?
Knowing that can help me to tell you where best to get the right help.
Thirdly, post a request for prayers for your daughter in the Prayer section of CathInfo. It would be a good idea to put her Christian name. Then people can pray for her by name.
Fourthly, you said that you were going to get a referral to a "Catholic" psychiatrist. PLEASE DO NOT DO THAT.
They will possibly do great harm.
Also, they can then interfere in your life and your Family without your consent.
Pease avoid any contact with psychiatrists or the social services or anyone official.
This is a desperate time for your daughter's soul.
Be like Saint Monica.
She would not have gone to a psychiatrist.
She would have taken all of her miseries to The Sacred Heart of Jesus and The Immaculate Heart of Mary.
She saved her son, Saint Augustine.
You can save your daughter.
It will require great Prayer.
You seem to understand part of the problem.
Your husband is very wrong about the way to behave.
I will help you with advice.
I know a great deal about Feminism.
It is Feminism which is to blame.
Perhaps you have sinned in going along with Feminism yourself.
Perhaps you now understand how evil it is.
Please PM me with any questions at all about Feminism or the situation of your daughter. I really want to help.
God wants you to trust Him.
Run to His Mercy.
Implore Graces for your daughter.
I wanted to give you some advice by PM, because it is about your Family, and I did not want to discuss it on the Forum.
You do not seem to have the Private Message feature. That is your choice, but if you briefly activate it. I can give you some advice.
I do believe that I may be able to help you with this.
God Bless you, Mrs Z,
God Bless your Daughter.
Yours, Sede Catholic.
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Mrs. Z, you've voiced your disapproval. You've done your duty. As the Forgiving Father let the Prodigal Son go out into the world to taste its poison - since this son demanded to taste this poison - so you must let your daughter taste this poison of the world. Reject any hint of hysteria. Commend the whole situation to God.
I must respectfully disagree with you, Jitpring. Again, I agree that trusting in God and praying for a good outcome is the right thing to do, but it's not the ONLY thing to do. She should not let her daughter go out and "taste the poison", not that easily. As I stated earlier, if I had a daughter who wanted to join the military, she would not hear the end of it from me until she changed her mind. Heck, if I had kids, I wouldn't even want my son to join the military, much less my daughter.
To do otherwise would be going against her husband's wishes.
A woman can and should go against her husband's wishes when he commands her to do something immoral. To just drop the issue and let he daughter make her own decision is not what God wants.
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This may have been answered already, but did she ever say exactly why she wanted to be a police officer and/or a Marine? There must be a motivating factor.
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At this point, a quiet, dignified silence expressive of total abandonment to God's will is the way for Mrs. Z to go. At all costs she should henceforth avoid any hint of frenzy. She should bridle her tongue to an unprecedented degree. This will have a far more powerful effect on her daughter than yet more vain words. Through her unrestrained tongue, Mrs. Z has lost credibility with her daughter. The more the words, the less the meaning, and this profits no one. This dignified silence is indeed the way of the Blessed Virgin and St. Monica.
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At this point, a quiet, dignified silence expressive of total abandonment to God's will is the way for Mrs. Z to go. At all costs she should henceforth avoid any hint of frenzy. She should bridle her tongue to an unprecedented degree. This will have a far more powerful effect on her daughter than yet more vain words. Through her unrestrained tongue, Mrs. Z has lost credibility with her daughter. The more the words, the less the meaning, and this profits no one. This dignified silence is indeed the way of the Blessed Virgin and St. Monica.
I'm not sure I understand. I get what you are saying about total abandonment to God's Will. Though, I'm not sure how silence could possibly help. I would think it would have just the opposite effect, that silence could make her daughter think her mother approves.
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At this point, a quiet, dignified silence expressive of total abandonment to God's will is the way for Mrs. Z to go. At all costs she should henceforth avoid any hint of frenzy. She should bridle her tongue to an unprecedented degree. This will have a far more powerful effect on her daughter than yet more vain words. Through her unrestrained tongue, Mrs. Z has lost credibility with her daughter. The more the words, the less the meaning, and this profits no one. This dignified silence is indeed the way of the Blessed Virgin and St. Monica.
I'm not sure I understand. I get what you are saying about total abandonment to God's Will. Though, I'm not sure how silence could possibly help. I would think it would have just the opposite effect, that silence could make her daughter think her mother approves.
But Mrs. Z has already strongly voiced her disapproval. The quiet, dignified, knowing silence I recommend would include no retraction of this disapproval.
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A woman can and should go against her husband's wishes when he commands her to do something immoral. To just drop the issue and let he daughter make her own decision is not what God wants.
Is her daughter wanting to going the military immoral? Unwise, I'll grant you, but immoral? I have not yet seen any positive, definitive proof that this is so.
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At this point, a quiet, dignified silence expressive of total abandonment to God's will is the way for Mrs. Z to go. At all costs she should henceforth avoid any hint of frenzy. She should bridle her tongue to an unprecedented degree. This will have a far more powerful effect on her daughter than yet more vain words. Through her unrestrained tongue, Mrs. Z has lost credibility with her daughter. The more the words, the less the meaning, and this profits no one. This dignified silence is indeed the way of the Blessed Virgin and St. Monica.
I'm not sure I understand. I get what you are saying about total abandonment to God's Will. Though, I'm not sure how silence could possibly help. I would think it would have just the opposite effect, that silence could make her daughter think her mother approves.
But Mrs. Z has already voiced her disapproval. The quiet, dignified, knowing silence I recommend would include no retraction of this disapproval.
Perhaps I should rephrase what I said above to: Mrs. Z's daughter will think her mother has come to approve if she remains silent, or at the very least has accepted it.
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A woman can and should go against her husband's wishes when he commands her to do something immoral. To just drop the issue and let he daughter make her own decision is not what God wants.
Is her daughter wanting to going the military immoral? Unwise, I'll grant you, but immoral? I have not yet seen any positive, definitive proof that this is so.
Yes, it is immoral, because it is buying into the lies of feminism. Women don't belong in the military. They shouldn't be doing jobs that are made for men.
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Nearly a year ago, on another Traditional Catholic forum (that is now largely in-active) I started a thread speaking of the dangers of feminism and career women. Of course, while most people on the thread agreed with me that married women should stay home with their kids, they also thought it would be fine for the woman to work some just to meet her "social needs". I disagreed, and was criticized for it, one person even saying to me "I hope you don't treat your wife this way" (I'm not even married, LOL!). But my mother taught me before I even became a Traditional Catholic that feminism is WRONG. A single woman wanting to join the military is slightly different than a married woman working outside the home, yes. But it still is rooted in feminism.
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A woman can and should go against her husband's wishes when he commands her to do something immoral. To just drop the issue and let he daughter make her own decision is not what God wants.
Is her daughter wanting to going the military immoral? Unwise, I'll grant you, but immoral? I have not yet seen any positive, definitive proof that this is so.
Yes, it is immoral, because it is buying into the lies of feminism. Women don't belong in the military. They shouldn't be doing jobs that are made for men.
Yes, of course.
What Spiritus has said is exactly true.
AND IT IS SO OBVIOUS.
How can Catholics not see this?
Clearly, for women to play such a role in life is displeasing to God.
Spiritus, you are right in pointing out that there is a key part played by Feminism in all of this.
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Mrs. Z,
If you figure out exactly why she wants to join the police or the Marines, you'll see whether it is that she loves guns and hand to hand combat, or if she wants to be independent and get out of your small town, or if it is another reason.
If her reasons are something other than crawling through mud and chasing crooks, then you may be able to suggest some alternatives. For instance, her going to school may get her out of the house, allow her to meet people, feel some independence, and produce a sense of accomplishment. Maybe this is what she is looking for in the Marines?
Some young people go into the military because they don't know who they are or how to make decisions. They want a very structured environment where someone will tell them what to do and they won't feel anxiety trying to figure it out. You've stated that you were very opinionated and at times overbearing as a parent. Perhaps she hasn't learned to make her own decisions or doesn't trust herself to and wants to "plug in" to an authoritarian sort of organization where decisions are taken care of for her. The Marines' pride themselves in taking in insecure, unsure people, testing them, having them almost quit but persevere, and then building up their self-confidence through hard work, success, and teamwork. Their goal is to eventually produce a confident, responsible soldier. I'd figure out if any of this is what she's really looking for: self-assurance, independence, sense of achievement, etc.
The key is: what void does she think the Marines/ Police will fill in her life that's not being filled right now? Could there be other alternatives, you would be willing to support financially, time wise, etc. that would give her what she's looking for? Otherwise she sees the Marines as her only choice. The alternative to her right now looks hopeless. You need to give her hope.
As for tactics, I'm afraid the natural impulse to try to force her to change her mind through sheer force of will is often counterproductive. There is a silly, but relevant, children's story of a contest between the wind and the sun. The wind boasts to the sun that he can blow a coat off of a man. He blows and blows, but the man only tightens his coat around him. The wind gives up and challenges the sun to do better. The sun starts to shine, warms the air, and the man takes his coat off voluntarily.
Having a good heart to heart and honestly listening to her without giving into the temptation to judge or lecture may help. She's closed off. You need her to open up. Scolding her only turns her further inward and closes her off more. She needs to know you really hear what she's saying and let her talk without cutting her off. Then let her know you really did understand what she said. You'd be amazed how often parents don't really listen to their kids struggles, etc. We want to cut them off and give them the answer. A lot of times the child, especially girls, are not looking for an answer. They are looking for understanding. By showing it, you earn their trust. Then your opinions (shrewdly given, in a positive way, here and there) carry a lot more weight.
If you've tried everything and all else fails, remember that God draws straight with crooked lines. If God permits her to enter the Marines, have no doubt that it will be meant to teach her something that only God knows. Though not the best choice in itself, it may lead to her learning a critical skill she needs in preparation for a vocation He has planned for her later in life. Or she may meet someone in the Marines who will deepen her Faith in the midst of it all. God has done stranger things.
No matter where she roams, know that God is there beside her. With but a thought He can lead her home at any time.
"I caught him, with an unseen hook and an invisible line which is long enough to let him wander to the ends of the world, and still to bring him back with a twitch upon the thread."
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Ok I'll put my vote in and say KEEP TRYING.
SS is right, so is Tele... Jit is right, in a major spiritual way, yet I think MrsZ needs to do as Jitpring has recommended but also to KEEP TRYING to show her she's making a poor decision. That is, on the condition that her daughter is listening and not holed up already and done-done-signed-the-papers confirmed to be a Marine. If she has already done this, then do not speak much of it anymore unless brought up. God will work His will on this , and if your daughter is open to God's will and a real Catholic woman, God will make her entry into the Marines impossible or non-existent. Trust me, He's done this to me in my own life in regards to career paths.
Do not despair , keep praying (especially for your husband to grow in courage and put his fatherly voice in this matter). Fathers talking to daughters have tremendous sway.
Women should feel naturally how it is wrong to do work that is designated for men by physical strength and mental stress, and should be inclined to domestic duties and all the activities that are involved with caring for the future of this world, children.
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If you've tried everything and all else fails, remember that God draws straight with crooked lines. If God permits her to enter the Marines, have no doubt that it will be meant to teach her something that only God knows. Though not the best choice in itself, it may lead to her learning a critical skill she needs in preparation for a vocation He has planned for her later in life. Or she may meet someone in the Marines who will deepen her Faith in the midst of it all. God has done stranger things.
What is it .. QFT? Quoted for Truth? Excellent points, Stevusmagnus.
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Any man who somehow thinks his sheltered 18 year old daughter is not heading into a lion's den in going into the Marines is dangerously delusional.
Heck, it's a lion's den for most 18 year old men, but at least there is in principle a justifiable reason for men to serve as soldiers. A severely grave occasion of sin, but in theory you could justify the necessity that some men join the military.
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Feminism has ruined society, no doubt. It stems from Protestantism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, BOTH of which support materialism. Even NO Catholics have adapted it, Trads should know not to.
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The only thing you can do is pray for her. But don't just pray at home. Go every day and pray before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament - the Eucharist is the source of all graces that the Sacred Heart of Jesus gives to us on this earth. It is the surest means and quickest means of answer to our prayers.
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Mrs. Z said:
The despair I feel is unbearable. The fact that there's nothing I can SAY now that will change things. The fact that it was WORDS in fact that helped caused this rift ... that I have depended on MYSELF instead of GOD, that I have labored in the lie of legalism over the truth of Charity...........what a horrible way to learn the lesson of pride and it's murderous effects.
And you are still being legalistic when you say that there is nothing you can say now that can change things. But apart from that, it sounds to me like you have taken a crucial step in your faith.
Mrs. Z, I have a friend in his eighties who is experiencing exactly what you are, but worse, since he is older and feels he took even longer to understand the mercy and charity of Jesus.
He accepted that Jesus would forgive him at a very late stage in the game, and I'm positive, due to graces shown him, especially his profound -- and clearly not feigned, I know the difference -- reverence for the Virgin Mary, that he has been rewarded for this decision. My point being, do not give into despair. We live in a confusing time and we are all sinners.
The main thing is that you recognize your weakness; and that it's not too late. If your daughter wants to hold it against you that you were imperfect, instead of appreciating what you're trying to do for her now, then that is her problem. Kids these days want to find any excuse they can to go their own way; and guess what, something tells me that if you were the Virgin Mary herself, it could easily have turned out the same way, just because of the society we're in.
This isn't to say you shouldn't repent; you should. Many Catholics use the faith as a bully-club, in order to appear righteous to the world. But you cannot undo the past, and more importantly, your repentance may set a more powerful example than you would have set even if you were more perfect before, sort of like Mary Magdalene set a more powerful example than Martha with her more superficial perfection... God works in mysterious ways. The hardest thing for human pride to accept is that we are miserable and fail often, but this must be accepted in order to prevent further failure!
It is admirable that you are facing yourself, and that in itself should soften the heart of your children, and set a powerful example. That is the hardest thing to do; and many Catholics apparently never do it, they have to pretend to be perfect and never admit they're wrong, which is spiritual stagnation. Are your children dead? Every day is a chance for them to change. Why do you think it's over just because they are grown? My friend's son, who is over 50, just converted to the true faith, traditional and all, and maybe the rest will follow... Miracles do happen!
The greatest saints are those who realize they're the greatest sinners and throw themselves on the mercy of God, giving Him a chance to work His mercy, since we can do nothing in ourselves and are wretched worms. Anyway, just wanted to let you know I know what you're talking about. I also have much to look back on that is regrettable and I know the stinging pain of having wasted time and opportunity, but it is better to confront it late than never.
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At this point, a quiet, dignified silence expressive of total abandonment to God's will is the way for Mrs. Z to go. At all costs she should henceforth avoid any hint of frenzy. She should bridle her tongue to an unprecedented degree. This will have a far more powerful effect on her daughter than yet more vain words. Through her unrestrained tongue, Mrs. Z has lost credibility with her daughter. The more the words, the less the meaning, and this profits no one. This dignified silence is indeed the way of the Blessed Virgin and St. Monica.
I'm not sure I understand. I get what you are saying about total abandonment to God's Will. Though, I'm not sure how silence could possibly help. I would think it would have just the opposite effect, that silence could make her daughter think her mother approves.
It's possible you've never been in the position of realizing that you cannot force another person's will. It can be influenced but only to certain degrees and Mrs Z has made it clear that trying to force her daughter's will has only made matters worse. What you are saying you would do, that she would not hear the end of it until she changed her mind, is exactly what Mrs Z has already tried. It didn't work. It made the situation worse. Stevus and Raoul have both written long posts that touch on this and hopefully help you understand Jit's response. Have no fear that the daughter will think she approves, she's been vocal enough that there's no room for that misunderstanding.
Silence isn't always approval anyway. Sometimes silence can show one's disapproval too. Think of people being angry and not talking to each other. Think of someone going quiet and reserved once others start gossiping. Then they know they must change the subject because that person is uncomfortable. Sometimes silence allows disapproval to come across without sermonizing. It allows for that other person's conscience to speak louder than you ever could. It allows for God and grace to do His interior work better than you ever could.
I think this is one of the most heart-rending lessons that parents of teens or adult children ever have to learn. When to speak, how to speak, when to be quiet and patient (remember patience means bearing one's cross -- watching children make mistakes and finding out you are helpless and must place all in God's hands is HARD -- it is not as easy as it sounds -- it is a painful cross for parents), realizing they cannot force their children's wills no matter how badly they want to. It often takes YEARS of watching and suffering, praying, waiting with baited breath for a parent to see their adult child finally come around. The urge to harrass them is often just the parent's own agitation coming through. It is their need to do SOMEthing to make themselves feel better about it, to let off their own steam. But it's often not for the good of the child.
Granted this doesn't mean a parent should never talk, beg, entreat their grown children. But like everything else, the trick is in figuring out when to use which tactic. And like everything else, we usually learn through trial and error. Mrs Z has already tried the one tactic and admitted it didn't work, it is time for her to try the other and show her disapproval through silence. This is not giving up. Far from it. It is simply a different but still very active strategy.
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Yes, that was a great post from Raoul, but where did he talk about silence? I am not saying, wallflower, that there are not times for parents to remain silent. But this is not one of those times, not yet anyway. My mother, who is a great Traditional Catholic, sure didn't remain silent when me or my brother did something she disapproved of. She didn't keep hammering us over the head with it, but she made it known over and over that she did not approve until we came to our senses.
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My daughter had said she wanted to be a K-9 Cop. I was briefly relieved that she'd have to wait until she was 21 to join the police academy. Today however she said she was thinking about joining the Marines.
I'm just devastated. I told her I loved her, that I'd always love her, that I didn't think this was the right thing to do ... I've tried to talk to her in the past about being a cop ... for many of the same reasons. I don't believe it's God's will for women to be in positions of fighting and protecting others, unless it's in self-defense (like the women in the pioneer days, for example).
My H told me that it was her decision and that since I've expressed myself, that now it's time to be supportive of her and support her decision. He said it's about unconditional love. That loving someone unconditionally means that you may not agree with their choices but that you support them and their choices. He also said that it's my opinion that this isn't a good idea and that's it's not our right or place to saying anything more about this or to try to talk her out of it.
I thought that maybe, just once, if her father spoke to her directly about how he didn't want to see her making this decision, she would possibly be moved by his action, that she'd reconsider this.
Two years ago, her brother was thinking about this. I wasn't as upset, although I didn't want him to join .. and ultimately, due to the current admininstration, he decided against it. But who knows. He's having trouble finding employment and he might end up joining as well.
My H accused me of taking this personally and that if a "person's" decision is not in line with my opinion, than I'm not loving them.
So, we're not in agreement here. I don't perceive this as being about me. I perceive this as being a failure to raise our daughter in an environment which made gender roles very clear. That our daughter does not value being a woman....and that's my fault, and her father's fault. She's been a "tomboy" since toddlerhood ... playing with her brother night and day.
My H said we had our chance to make our views known and she's thinking about acting in opposition to them. He's point is that it's too late now.
Has anyone else had this happen and had any conflicted feelings about it? Is it too late? Isn't there something "wrong" with a young, innocent girl joining the Marines?
And mostly: what does it look like to unconditionally love someone and their choices? Am I supposed to become a cheerleader for women in the military?
I need help.
Have her watch this short vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meOUdQrgYPQ&feature=related
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Yes, that was a great post from Raoul, but where did he talk about silence?
Actually, his focus was on Mrs Z herself, as opposed to getting all tangled up with the particular situation. IMO, Mrs Z and her ability to be truly useful to herself and those around her is the crux of the issue, at least where we outsiders are concerned. Mrs Z is the one with whom we are communicating and her own testimony gives the strong impression (to me, at least) that her ability to handle this situation in a healthy, positive manner has, for the moment, been compromised. In my experience, further action when in such a state rarely (if ever) produces good or lasting results. IOW, the best advice in the world will fail to produce good results unless the one being advised is in a position and frame of mind to put the advice into practice in a healthy, fruitful way. If the one being advised is not in such a position and frame of mind, the initial advice ought to touch upon bringing him to a better place whence he can implement a solid, healthy course of action respecting the other matter/s in question.
It would seem that this situation (among others?) has caused Mrs Z to be notably out of sorts and, regardless of what her daughter does or does not do in this particular instance, it is vital, if my understanding is correct, that she puts her own spiritual well-being first. Some of us have a tendency, if we are not careful, to pour ourselves out for the real or perceived good of others, even to our own detriment. While this can seem to be the height of charity to the one so behaving, it is unwise, unhealthy and contrary to real charity and God's will. In fact, it is a road that, if maintained, leads to our own disillusionment and destruction.
Mrs Z's ability to lovingly and effectively influence her daughter -- whether through additional talking, sincere and focused listening, or any other action -- is directly proportional to her own peace of mind and heart. Perhaps I am totally misreading her, but it seems as if she is not in what we might style a good place at the moment. IF this is true, the course of action that will serve Mrs Z best at the moment is to get her own house in order, regaining that peace of mind and heart which makes all that we do much more efficacious and beneficial to all involved. Doing so will enable her to calmly assess both the situation and the possible courses of action. If she is in a bit of a frazzled state of mind and heart, she cannot see anything clearly and little good can be expected from further discussions with her daughter.
I am not saying, wallflower, that there are not times for parents to remain silent. But this is not one of those times, not yet anyway.
I emphatically and sincerely believe that you may be right, but I'd also argue that none of us can know for certain. This is Mrs Z's gig. ALL the info and perspective we have is from her and through her eyes. I am not saying she is lying; however, I am saying that her own present lack of peace and clarity might be causing her, in all sincerity, to present the situation in a way that is inaccurate, even if only slightly.
Let's just pretend [IOW, the following is entirely theoretical] Mrs Z has a slight tendency to be or become overly emotional when engaging in serious discussions with her daughter who, perhaps, is very much her mother's daughter. They have two or three chats; Mrs Z makes her position crystal clear, albeit in a way which produces no apparent results other than making her daughter dig her heels in all the more; Mrs Z, being frustrated at her lack of ability to control her daughter, grows angry and even despondent; having done nothing to address her own growing emotional turmoil, Mrs Z plunges headlong into another exchange, this time increasing the rift between her and her daughter as well as increasing her own interior distress; despondency threatens to become despair and Mrs Z perceives herself as a complete failure, even going so far as to apply this flawed take to all kinds of areas where she has been anything but a failure; anger, despondency/despair, wounded pride slosh around freely within her mind and heart, having their way with her.
In any situation remotely similar to the one above, the mother's first priority ought to be her own spiritual health and sanity, without which she does untold damage without even realizing it.
It is hard to know without being there, but, if I were in Mrs Z's shoes and I decided to speak to the daughter again, I'd be as calm and loving as possible and go in with one goal in mind: to get her to confide what is in her heart. IOW, I'd say next to nothing and listen very closely, doing everything within my power to refrain from reacting hastily. Let the daughter speak; chew on what she said for a day or two; pray to the Holy Ghost for light and strength to know and do his will; act according to his inspiration.
Well, that ended up being five times longer than I intended :)
Have a good weekend, everyone, and don't forget to offer up an Ave or three for Mrs Z, her daughter, and their intentions. I am off to take a quick dip in the pool before other people start heading there in little more than their birthday suits!
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Yes, that was a great post from Raoul, but where did he talk about silence?
You have to read between the lines. He quotes where she says there's nothing she can SAY to change anything, that WORDS have helped cause the rift and addresses that. He doesn't specifically say "Be silent" but if forceful talking got her into this mess, what is your advice to her? More of the same?
I don't think anyone saying "Be silent" mean that she can never again broach the subject for the rest of their lives but at this point in time it is clear that for whatever reason, be it Mrs Z's disposition, her daughter's disposition, timing, lack of grace or correspondence to it, all of the above maybe, more discussion will not help. She's moving into the zone of patience which is more often than not suffered in silence or at least calmly, in peace. "She won't hear the end of it until she changes her mind" does not fall in that realm.
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Perhaps I should rephrase what I said above to: Mrs. Z's daughter will think her mother has come to approve if she remains silent, or at the very least has accepted it.
Given Mrs. Z's previous vigorous expressions of disapproval, without an explicit retraction it's unlikely that daughter Z will come to think that Mrs. Z approves. Moreover, the silence I'm recommending wouldn't include the slightest nod of the head when daughter Z sings the praises of the military. Only stone silence and a peaceful, knowing smile conveying this: "My dear, you're a complete fool. I'll waste no more words on you. The fool must learn only through experience. I leave you to it."
However, it's likely that daughter Z will come to think that Mrs. Z has come to accept something: that, having done her duty, it's now God's will that she leave daughter Z to wallow with the swine until she returns to herself.
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Yes, that was a great post from Raoul, but where did he talk about silence? I am not saying, wallflower, that there are not times for parents to remain silent. But this is not one of those times, not yet anyway. My mother, who is a great Traditional Catholic, sure didn't remain silent when me or my brother did something she disapproved of. She didn't keep hammering us over the head with it, but she made it known over and over that she did not approve until we came to our senses.
Wallflower is a feminist SS, that's why she has this attitude. She's the sort who will tell anyone trying to dissuade a woman from doing her own will to give up. For such people putting a woman under authority and requiring her to observe it is one of the worst things in the world. Unless it's about requiring female solidarity against men or a man, and its women using the pressure.
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Is her daughter wanting to going the military immoral? Unwise, I'll grant you, but immoral? I have not yet seen any positive, definitive proof that this is so.
I don't know if is immoral in itself. My Catholic great grandmother won the Purple Heart for nursing.
The military might not be immoral entirely. My very dear friend who had been Bp. Sheen's secretary was a Marine WAC or WAVE something during WW2.
It used to be, the military was where Catholics especially could advance in service to their country.
Women have served their countries in non-combat situations in the past without being feminists, but I don't know if it's even POSSIBLE these days.
Prayers for Mrs. Z. It is really difficult. My husband has some relative, who sent out emails bragging[/b] about her daughter getting a scholarship in BOXING. :barf:
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No offense, but not a great job raising your child if this is her wish. And I say this as a father of 4.
Killing for Jєωry in an Illegal Occupation, on LIES? What kind of a arent hasnt told their children about this illegal war and Why?
Or learning to be a thug cop trained by the ADL?
Youve got to be kidding....
Heres some constructive ideas if its not too late.
Why not a paramedic if she like action? Or ER Nurse?
Or teacher at a Catholic school?
Lots of good career choices, Seeing the horrors or war and taking part in them?
No thanks.
My children would be disowned and I assure you, will be better prepared to make such life decisions.
If you want photos of the Iraq or Afganistan War Crimes, let me know. I have them in abundance.
These people are not of GOD, but possessed by the Devil, working for Jєωry.
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I don't know if is immoral in itself. My Catholic great grandmother won the Purple Heart for nursing.
That's not the same situation or circuмstance. We're talking about the modern, integrated military.
The military might not be immoral entirely.
Of course not, in principle. You'd have to be crazy to think it's morally acceptable for a young woman to go into the military, the way it is today, when in principle there's no need for women to be soldiers.
Women have served their countries in non-combat situations in the past without being feminists, but I don't know if it's even POSSIBLE these days.
Yes, the military and the way it handles relations between the sexes acts in a way totally contrary to Catholic principles.
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I don't know if is immoral in itself. My Catholic great grandmother won the Purple Heart for nursing.
That's not the same situation or circuмstance. We're talking about the modern, integrated military.
The military might not be immoral entirely.
Of course not, in principle. You'd have to be crazy to think it's morally acceptable for a young woman to go into the military, the way it is today, when in principle there's no need for women to be soldiers.
Women have served their countries in non-combat situations in the past without being feminists, but I don't know if it's even POSSIBLE these days.
Yes, the military and the way it handles relations between the sexes acts in a way totally contrary to Catholic principles.
This is what US Soldiers are doing today....makes you sick.
(http://www.opinion-maker.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/A-woman-US-Soldier-smiling-over-a-near-dead-POW.jpg)
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I think the above picture needs to be removed.
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I think the above picture needs to be removed.
Why?
Women taking part in war crimes is an everyday event.
Nothing overly graphic about it.
She wasnt posing with dead Afgani kids as trophys like in other pictures we see on the internet, but kept from Mainstream media...
Im offended that 1 million Afganis are dead, ON Lies..90% are Civilian women and children.
And yet you are offended by a female soldier taking part in war crimes as a guard for a prison engaging in Interrogation? (Isnt that what they call it nowadays?)
Moralizing a ridiculous issue if you ask me and very typical with what is wrong with those claiming to be 'Catholic' nowadays.
The gal/soldier in the photo is someones daughter, and will be destroyed mentally for life.
Every mother / father must know this...
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It needs to be removed because no one except a pervert would want to look at a photo of someone naked. That's filth.
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It needs to be removed because no one except a pervert would want to look at a photo of someone naked. That's filth.
The man privates are not visible, he is on his chest, ON The ground.
Your offended by his lack of cothing in a sick demented interrogation, but not the sick Interrogation itself, of a FEMALE, US Soldier, taking part in war crimes?
Its so typical of the over moralizing types you and yours do...
Your hypocrisy kills me.
These should make you feel better, all are well clothed.
(http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050217/050217_prisondeath2_vmed.grid-4x2.jpg)
12 yr old unarmed Afgani boy shot and killed while riding his bike. Day in the Life
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3w1VVAW9Ku8/T12nfyPA81I/AAAAAAAAYi4/1cyDIOF0j-M/s1600/Jeremy%2BMorlock%2Bposing%2Bwith%2Bvictim%2BGul%2BMudin.jpg)
(http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/abu_ghraib_iraq_torture.jpg)
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Your offended by his lack of cothing in a sick demented interrogation, but not the sick Interrogation itself, of a FEMALE, US Soldier, taking part in war crimes?
Its so typical of the over moralizing types you and yours do...
Your hypocrisy kills me.
YOU are the hypocrite. You obviously have not been following this thread, otherwise you would know that I do not support females in the military.
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I agree the pics should be removed. John you seem very concerned about these citizens but what about those innocents who are here that YOU are harming with your graphic pictures? I don't watch the news, I don't take part in war, I don't watch violent movies, all precisely because I am NOT desensitized to how evil it is. I am very sensitive to it. I don't need to see it to know it exists and that probably goes for many others here.
Unless you're just another troll I don't know why you would make us out to be enemies or hypocrites for not taking a sick pleasure in posting or seeing your horrible pictures. Of course they are disturbing, isn't that your point?
The evil invading this forum has been so palpable lately.
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Your offended by his lack of cothing in a sick demented interrogation, but not the sick Interrogation itself, of a FEMALE, US Soldier, taking part in war crimes?
Its so typical of the over moralizing types you and yours do...
Your hypocrisy kills me.
YOU are the hypocrite. You obviously have not been following this thread, otherwise you would know that I do not support females in the military.
But you support photos of war crimes, on the part of US Soldiers, provided they are clothed...all participants that is.
I think I understand your point better now. But let me be certain.
By condemning me and chastising me for uploading a photo offered in maninstream media on the Iraq war here.....
You are seemingly offended by whether ones upper/lower back is unclothed in an interrogation (Against the Iraquis wishes Im sure), whereas I and many others, are offended at Invading a Nation On Lies, Diverting its oil resources to an Israeli Pipeline, Killing over 1 million innocent women and children, Making 5 Million Iraqi children Orphans, (and about 4 Million refugees) and costing us Trillions of dollars and alot of credibility and goodwill.
Your kind are pletniful sadly and part of what is wrong with the world and this country.. You should be ashamed, but those like you have no shame.
A parable about a moat in your eye comes to mind.
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I agree the pics should be removed. John you seem very concerned about these citizens but what about those innocents who are here that YOU are harming with your graphic pictures? I don't watch the news, I don't take part in war, I don't watch violent movies, all precisely because I am NOT desensitized to how evil it is. I am very sensitive to it. I don't need to see it to know it exists and that probably goes for many others here.
Unless you're just another troll I don't know why you would make us out to be enemies or hypocrites for not taking a sick pleasure in posting or seeing your horrible pictures. Of course they are disturbing, isn't that your point?
The evil invading this forum has been so palpable lately.
What have you done to Object to this UnGodly war the last 10 years?
To the war Crimes? War itself is a war crime..
What have you or your Parish Offered to the victims-the Orphans, the Refugees, the Children?
I see plenty of evil too, alright. And hypocrisy.
And lots of hypocrites who call themselves 'Catholics'
In name only.
Why in heavens name ANY Catholic would send their son or daughter off to fight in a Sick Jєω war is beyond me. Even contemplate it.
How any Catholic could call themself a Catholic parent, and have a Child SIGN Up, forget a draft, but willingly Sign up and enlist, to take part is such a charade.
And no one here offers anything constructive.
EVERY Catholic SHOULD See the photos of war, should protest these damnable Jєω Wars, The Sadistic troops that take part in them, and the soulless Jєω owned politicians that vote to send them off to take part in them.
I wonder if they too would be 'offended' by such photos or ever viewed one.
Im ashamed of most of you. You know who you are.
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But you support photos of war crimes, on the part of US Soldiers, provided they are clothed...all participants that is.
This is a rash judgement. I never said I supported photos of war crimes.
You are seemingly offended by whether ones upper/lower back is unclothed in an interrogation (Against the Iraquis wishes Im sure), whereas I and many others, are offended at Invading a Nation On Lies, Diverting its oil resources to an Israeli Pipeline, Killing over 1 million innocent women and children, Making 5 Million Iraqi children Orphans, (and about 4 Million refugees) and costing us Trillions of dollars and alot of credibility and goodwill.
I didn't support the war in Iraq, nor do I support any of these other wars. I believe that war should only be for self-defense, and these wars have not been just.
Your kind are pletniful sadly and part of what is wrong with the world and this country.. You should be ashamed, but those like you have no shame.
You should be ashamed for putting words in my mouth. All I said was that pictures of naked people are not appropriate, I never said I was not offended by war photos of people who are clothed. Of course the pics you posted of people who are clothed yet fatally injured bother me, I never claimed they did not. You are judging my thoughts and motives.
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This is a rash judgement. I never said I supported photos of war crimes.
Only the content which dealt with his clothing, or lack therof.
I didn't support the war in Iraq, nor do I support any of these other wars. I believe that war should only be for self-defense, and these wars have not been just.
The Iraqi and Afganis are waging self defense.
You should be ashamed for putting words in my mouth. All I said was that pictures of naked people are not appropriate,
No where is/was nakedness shown.
Michaelangelo & Roman art shows more than that photo.
The civilian was on his belly and chest.
I never said I was not offended by war photos of people who are clothed.
You didnt say you were offended by it either.
Of course the pics you posted of people who are clothed yet fatally injured bother me, I never claimed they did not. You are judging my thoughts and motives.
I can tell youre bothered now...2 posts later when the truth is revealed and reveals you and lack of human compassion..
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I can tell youre bothered now...2 posts later when the truth is revealed and reveals you and lack of human compassion..
You're a liar. You posted a pic of someone naked, I said it should be removed, THEN you post similar photos of people who are clothed, then say I have no compassion and rashly accuse me of supporting war. When did I say I was not offended by wounded or killed soldiers?
I should also add that you have not been a member for 24 hours, yet you already have nearly 40 posts, many of which are immature rants, such as those you are flinging at me right now. That is the sign of a troll.
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Also, your defense of Father Cekada's insane position on Terry Schiavo only shows that you have serious problems.
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Also, your defense of Father Cekada's insane position on Terry Schiavo only shows that you have serious problems.
Weak Red Herring on your part, as I embarrassed you here.
You care more about a non functioning vegetable , who gave specific instructions to her husband (like most people do) about Not being kept up to a machine if she was a vegetable, than you do about the 4 million Orphan Children the USA made in Iraq or the 1 million people killed in Iraq and Afganistan.
You are the wost kind of hypocrite.
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Weak Red Herring on your part, as I embarrassed you here.
The only person you embarassed is yourself. I would indeed feel embarassed if I made posts that are as immture and illogical as yours.
You care more about a non functioning vegetable
You are one sick person. She was not a "non functioning vegetable" and her husband was a jerk.
than you do about the 4 million Orphan Children the USA made in Iraq or the 1 million people killed in Iraq and Afganistan.
Actually, I recently wrote a paper that explained why these wars are unjust, and that it is terrible for families to see their children or relatives come back with missing limbs. You don't know me personally, so how can you accuse me of not having compassion for wounded or killed veterans? You rely on rashly judging me instead.
You are the wost kind of hypocrite.
Again, you are the hypocrite. Anyone who would support the murder of Schiavo either doesn't know the facts, is stupid, or has a warped mind.
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The only person you embarassed is yourself. I would indeed feel embarassed if I made posts that are as immture and illogical as yours.
If being offended by shirtless interrogated civilians is offensive, but not war itself, the illogical one is you.
You are one sick person. She was not a "non functioning vegetable" and her husband was a jerk.
I dont know ONE person, not a single one, that wishes to be kept alive, as a Vegetable, at a cost of 100k per year, BY Machines... Not one.
Do you? Just one, how about yourself?
Actually, I recently wrote a paper that explained why these wars are unjust, and that it is terrible for families to see their children or relatives come back with missing limbs. You don't know me personally, so how can you accuse me of not having compassion for wounded or killed veterans? You rely on rashly judging me instead.
What exactly have you done for the dead, suffering children (4 Million + of them), the Refugees from these Godless wars and Occupations?
Again, you are the hypocrite. Anyone who would support the murder of Schiavo either doesn't know the facts, is stupid, or has a warped mind.
Again, WHO do you know, wishes to be kept alive by artificial machines, while in a vegetative state?
And do your parents have a right to dictate to your wife, and override her (or Him if ur female) that you be kept alive BY Machines, for an undetermined time, while in a vegetative state?
When Is GOD's Will good enough for you? Or do you like playing GOD?
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What of These Facts re. Schiavo?
Michael Schiavo testified that Terri told him in the mid-1980s that she would not want life support after the couple had watched a movie depicting a patient on a ventilator.
Schiavo's brother and sister-in-law Also testified that Terri had made statements to them regarding mechanical life support.
Judge Greer found this testimony to be clear and convincing evidence that Terri Schiavo would deny herself the provision of a gastric feeding tube in the event of a profound disability and ordered that her tube be removed.
Irelevant? Or Relevant?
Betray her wishes? Prolong her life via machines as a vegetable?
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If being offended by shirtless interrogated civilians is offensive, but not war itself, the illogical one is you.
Unjust war is offensive to me. I thought I'd made that clear.
What exactly have you done for the dead, suffering children (4 Million + of them), the Refugees from these Godless wars and Occupations?
Ah, so apparently writing an essay about unjust war isn't enough to convince you, huh?
When Is GOD's Will good enough for you? Or do you like playing GOD?
So you are convinced that killing Schiavo was God's Will? Your view of His Will must be jumbled. As for Schiavo's husband saying she wouldn't have wanted that, why trust him? He was having an affair and was apparently an abuser to Schiavo.
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Unjust war is offensive to me. I thought I'd made that clear.
I think you mean to say Undressed war.
Ah, so apparently writing an essay about unjust war isn't enough to convince you, huh?
You made your point, and looked quite foolish in doing so.
We all know what offends you, and what doesnt.
So you are convinced that killing Schiavo was God's Will?
Your view of His Will must be jumbled.
Preserving life by Machinery is not exactly honoring Gods will, or those of the person hooked up to said machinery, against their wishes
As for Schiavo's husband saying she wouldn't have wanted that, why trust him? He was having an affair and was apparently an abuser to Schiavo.
Because HER Brother and SISTER in law ALSO testified to having heard TERI say the same thing to them!
"Michael Schiavo testified that Terri told him in the mid-1980s that she would not want life support after the couple had watched a movie depicting a patient on a ventilator.
Schiavo's brother and sister-in-law Also testified that Terri had made statements to them regarding mechanical life support.
Judge Greer found this testimony to be clear and convincing evidence that Terri Schiavo would deny herself the provision of a gastric feeding tube in the event of a profound disability and ordered that her tube be removed.'
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First of all, I don't think you'll find anyone on this forum who supports the recent wars of the US military or the disgusting military culture that now prevails.
All I did was point out that even if being a soldier is a legitimate occupation, that allows one to enter into bad company and occasions of sin for a necessary purpose, it does not follow that it is ever necessary for women to be soldiers.
In the old days the military role of women was better defined than today. Today it is clear that women are being treated as though they were soldiers, and that alone makes it morally unacceptable for women to join the military. Notwithstanding the horrible culture of immorality that now prevails in the military.
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First of all, I don't think you'll find anyone on this forum who supports the recent wars of the US military or the disgusting military culture that now prevails.
All I did was point out that even if being a soldier is a legitimate occupation, that allows one to enter into bad company and occasions of sin for a necessary purpose, it does not follow that it is ever necessary for women to be soldiers.
In the old days the military role of women was better defined than today. Today it is clear that women are being treated as though they were soldiers, and that alone makes it morally unacceptable for women to join the military. Notwithstanding the horrible culture of immorality that now prevails in the military.
They support them through their actions.
Silence is acceptance. And Too many Catholics are Silent. An apathetic.
Please note that Ive attended 2 Traditional Churches in the last 10 years with many (As in Multiple) Children entering the armed forces as soldiers to go and be shiped overseas t go to the Jєω meat grinder-it makes me sick.
Priests and parishioners are letting those kids down.
I can only imagine them returning in a body bag. Im but one voice in a sea of silnce.
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Please note that Ive attended 2 Traditional Churches in the last 10 years with many (As in Multiple) Children entering the armed forces as soldiers to go and be shiped overseas t go to the Jєω meat grinder-it makes me sick.
Priests and parishioners are letting those kids down.
Yes, it's quite bad. But arguing against the foreign policy of the US is not necessary in this context. We have done it in many other contexts.
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Please note that Ive attended 2 Traditional Churches in the last 10 years with many (As in Multiple) Children entering the armed forces as soldiers to go and be shiped overseas t go to the Jєω meat grinder-it makes me sick.
Priests and parishioners are letting those kids down.
Yes, it's quite bad. But arguing against the foreign policy of the US is not necessary in this context. We have done it in many other contexts.
Its obvious that not too many people are reading about it in any contexts, as this very thread, is about someones daughter, a Trad no less, considering Fighting for the Jєωs and enlisting in a Foreign Occupation.
Id say the board is not doing too decent ajob educating people.
Or they educating themselves.
Of their fellow priests and parishioners educating one another about the Jєω meat grinder aka Occupations for Israel in the Mid East.
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Trying to steer this thread back on topic, should anyone try and use the St. Joan of Arc argument/fallacy, here is a Catholic answer from an older publication, Catholic Progress in an article titled "Women's Rights," p. 129, May, 1878 to this issue. It also address at least implicitly why women should not be in the military.
Little good can be augured from men becoming feminine or women becoming masculine. If woman would retain undisputed her dominion, she must use the charms with which God has endowed her, and not attempt to wield the arms which are the appanage of the stronger sex. We read indeed of a Deborah and a Judith, a Boadicea and a Joan of Arc, and we may recognize sometimes in cases like these heaven-appointed instruments in God's hands for special purposes, but at best these are exceptions, and our hearts are drawn more powerfully by a Rachel, an Anna, or a St. Cecilia, and we feel that we could more heartily devote ourselves to the service of these than of those.
Yes! woman must be womanly, and ill-betide the age when woman puts off her womanliness... for men have after all the strongest wrists, and if woman contends with him in physical strength she must succuмb, and then man, exercising brute force, unhumanised by woman's influence, will be a tyrant, and old Paganism would be re-enacted and woman become a slave.
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Women in the military...I still cant fathom it.
Can you just imagine asking General Patton his thoughts on such a stupid idea?
If a man hears a voice in the middle of the night-door being busted in, does this Husband push his wife out of bed and tell her to go check for intruders, or does the man handle that task with his own gun & light?
Do we not have clearly defined roles in society any longer, that a parent has to have such a conversation with a daughter about our Military?
My Gosh, how far we've come....
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You made your point, and looked quite foolish in doing so.
We all know what offends you, and what doesnt.
You've been a member for roughly 22 or 23 hours, and you think you have me figured out just by looking at a few of my posts. You are a pathalogical liar. You incessantly insult me, judge my thoughts and motives, and accuse me of things that simply are not true. That is not Christian behavior.
Preserving life by Machinery is not exactly honoring Gods will, or those of the person hooked up to said machinery, against their wishes
Was her husband doing God's Will by having an affair? How do you know he didn't want her killed just so he could re-marry?
Id say the board is not doing too decent ajob educating people.
According to whom? Your standards?
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You made your point, and looked quite foolish in doing so.
We all know what offends you, and what doesnt.
You've been a member for roughly 22 or 23 hours, and you think you have me figured out just by looking at a few of my posts. You are a pathalogical liar. You incessantly insult me, judge my thoughts and motives, and accuse me of things that simply are not true. That is not Christian behavior.
Preserving life by Machinery is not exactly honoring Gods will, or those of the person hooked up to said machinery, against their wishes
Was her husband doing God's Will by having an affair? How do you know he didn't want her killed just so he could re-marry?
Id say the board is not doing too decent ajob educating people.
According to whom? Your standards?
1 Ive been a reader for 2 years, member for a day. Ive read yours and others posts and feel like I know you quite well. Im glad that I dont, however.
2 Mr. Schiavo is not on trial, or judged for morality or lack thereof.
Terri made it very clear her directives to 3 other family members, To NOT be kept alive by machines. On record, as testimony.
3 Anyones standards.
If a mother here on this board, has a daughter that wishes to take part in the Jєω meat grinder aka Foreign Occupation, and is a regular here, either she has a Reading problem, comprehending problem, or communcation problem.
I havent lied about One thing.
You can gladly accuse me if you can prove me a liar. But you cant.
I await any response to prove me wrong, about anything.
I know you and your kind. The worst kind of hypocrites.
I have nothing but contempt for you and yours.
And I expose you for all to see.
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2 Mr Schiavo is not on trial, or judged for morality or lack thereof.
Terri made clear her directive to 3 other family members, To NOT be kept alive by machines. On record, at testimony.
Yeah whatever. I'll drop the subject about Schiavo since it's derailing this thread. I'll take you up on that debate on the other Schiavo threads.
I know you and your kind. The worst kind of hypocrites.
I have nothing but contempt for you and yours.
And I expose you for all to see.
It is quite obvious that you lack humility, that you are a very prideful person who spews nothing but venom in their posts. I know YOUR kind and it is quite disgusting. You are a full-blown troll who explodes in emotional rages at even the slightest thing you disagree with. You have also spread lies about me that have no truth to them what-so-ever. You need to repent and retract your vicious lies.
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2 Mr Schiavo is not on trial, or judged for morality or lack thereof.
Terri made clear her directive to 3 other family members, To NOT be kept alive by machines. On record, at testimony.
Yeah whatever. I'll drop the subject about Schiavo since it's derailing this thread. I'll take you up on that debate on the other Schiavo threads.
I know you and your kind. The worst kind of hypocrites.
I have nothing but contempt for you and yours.
And I expose you for all to see.
It is quite obvious that you lack humility, that you are a very prideful person who spews nothing but venom in their posts. I know YOUR kind and it is quite disgusting. You are a full-blown troll who explodes in emotional rages at even the slightest thing you disagree with. You have also spread lies about me that have no truth to them what-so-ever. You need to repent and retract your vicious lies.
It is obvious to all the readers just who lacks humility, who attacks priests publically, engages in calumny, lies, deceit, gossip, and lets their own ego do the typing.
Im just a guy trying to get along in a sick Jєω world with hypocrites of the worst kind professing to be 'Catholic'.
ive already settled the matter on Schiavo. Facts are not debateble.
Its something you dont have and I do.
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It is obvious to all the readers just who lacks humility, who attacks priests publically, engages in calumny, lies, deceit, gossip, and lets their own ego do the typing.
All I said was there was nothing funny about holding the wrong position on Schiavo's death. That is hardly calumny. Do you know what calumny is? Apparently not, because you have told lies about me on this forum, you lying jerk.
Im just a guy trying to get along in a sick Jєω world with hypocrites of the worst kind professing to be 'Catholic'.
You are no Catholic. You just troll around the boards with a sick agenda, acting as if you are the authority on everything.
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It is obvious to all the readers just who lacks humility, who attacks priests publically, engages in calumny, lies, deceit, gossip, and lets their own ego do the typing.
All I said was there was nothing funny about holding the wrong position on Schiavo's death. That is hardly calumny. Do you know what calumny is? Apparently not, because you have told lies about me on this forum, you lying jerk.
Im just a guy trying to get along in a sick Jєω world with hypocrites of the worst kind professing to be 'Catholic'.
You are no Catholic. You just troll around the boards with a swollen head, acting as if you are the authority on everything.
Do I need to quote you on your lies/calumnies on Priests here, including Father C?
Vicious, and I mean Vicious Gossippers, Liars, deceitful egotistical cons and Shills.
Im not a Good Catholic. Thats for sure.
My wife is. And I love her for it. Im a work in progress.
But I know people, I know hearts, I know Jєωs, agents, shills and liars.
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Do I need to qote you your lies on Priests here, including Father C?
Vicious, and I mean Vicious Gossippers, Liars, deceit cons and Shills.
If you're refering to my posts in the past about how Father C was guilty of certain things, I retracted those statements in an apology thread I made two months ago. But yes, please quote my "lies on priests here", as I'm not aware of any other "lies" I told about priests.
But I know people, I know hearts, I know Jєωs, agents, shills and liars.
I am a very honest person. I have always hated lies, and I hate the lies you are spewing about me right now. How do you sleep at night? I sure wouldn't if I told lies like you do. I have NEVER told lies about other forum users here.
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Do I need to qote you your lies on Priests here, including Father C?
Vicious, and I mean Vicious Gossippers, Liars, deceit cons and Shills.
If you're refering to my posts in the past about how Father C was guilty of certain things, I retracted those statements in an apology thread I made two months ago. But yes, please quote my "lies on priests here", as I'm not aware of any other "lies" I told about priests.
But I know people, I know hearts, I know Jєωs, agents, shills and liars.
I am a very honest person. I have always hated lies, and I hate the lies you are spewing about me right now. How do you sleep at night? I sure wouldn't if I told lies like you do. I have NEVER told lies about other forum users here.
So you engaged in lies, for over a year, issued an apology and now classify yourself as someone who hasnt engaged in calumny, lies, gossip, deceit and false witness, as a matter of course after the damage was done?
Thats Interesting.
Im sure youre honest, just not with others...
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So you engaged in lies, for over a year, issued an apology and now classify yourself as someone who hasnt engagedin calumny, lies, gossip, deceit and false witness? Thats Interesting.
Your lack of reading comprehension is freightening. I never said I didn't engage in lies and gossip, I said I retracted statements I made about Father C a while back.
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So you engaged in lies, for over a year, issued an apology and now classify yourself as someone who hasnt engagedin calumny, lies, gossip, deceit and false witness? Thats Interesting.
Your lack of reading comprehension is freightening. I never said I didn't engage in lies and gossip, I said I retracted statements I made about Father C a while back.
Im sure it took quite an epiphany for you to come to the realization that what you did was harmful to your soul, to the Priest being scandalized and others that receieved sacraments from him, and to the truth itself.
Or you were just caught in too many lies and had to save face by retracting it all.
My comprehension is as good as anyones here. And Im a speed reader.
And I destroy liars. Keep on playing..
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Im sure it took quite an epiphany for you to come to the realization that what you did was harmful to your soul, to the Priest being scandalized and others that receieved sacraments from him, and to the truth itself.
Or you were just caught in too many lies and had to save face.
To set the record straight, the lies did not come from me. Someone who was kicked out of the SGG made statements such as "Father C is trying to ruin my reputation" and so forth. I foolishly believed him even though he provided little evidence other than a supposed email sent to him by Father C calling him mentally ill. I later apologised for buying his statements against Father C.
Anyway, you can hold a grudge against me all you want. I really don't care, to be truthful. If you think I'm a liar, that's your problem. You won't find many people here that agree with you, except ONE person who only dislikes me because I told him the Beatles were scuм.
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Im sure it took quite an epiphany for you to come to the realization that what you did was harmful to your soul, to the Priest being scandalized and others that receieved sacraments from him, and to the truth itself.
Or you were just caught in too many lies and had to save face.
To set the record straight, the lies did not come from me. Someone who was kicked out of the SGG made statements such as "Father C is trying to ruin my reputation" and so forth. I foolishly believed him even though he provided little evidence other than a supposed email sent to him by Father C calling him mentally ill. I later apologised for buying his statements against Father C.
Anyway, you can hold a grudge against me all you want. I really don't care, to be truthful. If you think I'm a liar, that's your problem. You won't find many people here that agree with you, except ONE person who only dislikes me because I told him the Beatles were scuм.
This is the world smallest violin.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1H-8of5uDMc/T4Rg2BabyYI/AAAAAAAADa4/iI34-SaX-os/s1600/violin.jpg)
Some say the Israeli PM of IsraHell Golda Meir had good qualities as well, and was just misunderstood...as you yourself claim.
Others say she was a black widow, and dangerous as a cobra.
Im sure youre just misunderstood
(http://www.Jєωιѕнfilm.org/Catalogue/images/golda_meir.jpg)
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Wow,
one track mind,
clear personal agenda,
lack of reading comprehension (or purposeful ignoring of other's point),
shameless twisting of opponent's words,
rash judgment beyond measure,
pronouncements left and right,
dripping aggression,
nothing but name-calling -- everybody's a liar and a hypocrite needing to be exposed.
Now we have 2 of them.
:cheers:
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Wow,
one track mind,
clear personal agenda,
lack of reading comprehension (or purposeful ignoring of other's point),
shameless twisting of opponent's words,
rash judgment beyond measure,
pronouncements left and right,
dripping aggression,
nothing but name-calling -- everybody's a liar and a hypocrite needing to be exposed.
Now we have 2 of them.
:cheers:
Youre batting about 2 of 8 regarding me.... Thats not bad. Only 225.
Good enough for the Minor leagues, anyways.
But to make the Big leagues, you need to do alot better than 225.
I never name called, rashed judgment, twisted words, lack comprehension, or any agenda unless warranted.
But otherwise, not bad for an amateur.
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Wow,
one track mind,
clear personal agenda,
lack of reading comprehension (or purposeful ignoring of other's point),
shameless twisting of opponent's words,
rash judgment beyond measure,
pronouncements left and right,
dripping aggression,
nothing but name-calling -- everybody's a liar and a hypocrite needing to be exposed.
Now we have 2 of them.
:cheers:
So much for staying away.