Author Topic: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?  (Read 1712 times)

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Offline Jitpring

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"Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
« on: March 30, 2011, 02:50:17 PM »
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  • Friends, a poster in another thread wrote the following. I offer my response. Feel free to weigh in.

    Quote from: jllsjlls


    P.S.: Calling homosexuals sodomites is not accurate either because the term sodomite has several meanings none of which is synonymous with homosexual. I urge you to consult your dictionary next time before you display your ignorance like that.


    Wrongo bongo. Sodomite is the word traditionally applied to those who commit those perverse sins related to the perversion of what we now call homosexuality (or more usually, amid today's breakdown, being gay - what horrible abuse this formerly cheerful little word has suffered!), thus sodomy is traditionally specified as a category of the sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance. (You're unaware of such sins? Look into it.)

    The word homosexuality is a modern invention. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the first recorded use of the word homosexuality in English was recorded in 1892. It occurs in Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebbing's book Psychopathia Sexualis, translated from the German by one C.G. Chaddock. The entry in the OED reads:

    Quote
    1892 C. G. CHADDOCK tr.Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis III. 185 (heading) Great diminution or complete absence of sexual feeling for the opposite sex, with substitution of sexual feeling and instinct for the same sex. (Homo-sexuality, or contrary sexual instinct.)


    Yes, jllsjlls,  I urge you to consult your dictionary next time before you display your ignorance like that. Look into it, and you'll find that, indeed, sodomite is the word traditionally used in English to designate those who commit those abominable sins related their perverted attractions. (And please notice that, unlike the watered-down new Catechism of the Catholic Church, I said perverted, not disordered.)

    Speaking of which, the fondness you've indicated for the new Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that you've been heavily processed by the NewChurch. The idea that there could actually be things fundamentally wrong with the new Catechism seems outrageous, foreign, utterly alien to you. And so I again urge you to study this:

    The New Catechism....Is It Catholic?

    Understand: Part of the evil of the NewChurch processing you've received is that you haven't sufficiently learned to hate. This seems an astonishing thing to say, I know. But you don't have a deep hatred, a holy hatred, for sin. You've heard a lot about (false) love and (false) compassion, but very little of holy hate. This is why you prefer watered-down words like homosexual - and you probably even prefer gay - instead of unvarnished words like fag or sodomite. In accord with the Orwellianism of the NewChurch, to take the edge off, you prefer to use the most morally neutral, distorting language possible. I won't participate in this whitewashing. Join me. Behold:

    "[H]ave no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of" (Eph. 5:11-12). "Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2 Cor. 6:14-15). "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world; but be reformed in the newness of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, and the acceptable, and the perfect will of God" (Rom. 12:1-2). "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world" (1 Jn. 2:15-16). "Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God" (Jam. 4:4). "And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution" (2 Tim. 3:12).

    "'If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him' (Rom. 6:8). To be dead with Christ, is to hate and turn from sin; and to live with Him, is to have our hearts and minds turned towards God and Heaven. To be dead to sin, is to feel a disgust at it. We know what is meant by disgust...."

    -John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume7/sermon13.html

    "A man says to himself, 'How am I to know I am in earnest?' I would suggest to him, Make some sacrifice, do some distasteful thing, which you are not actually obliged to do, (so that it be lawful,) to bring home to your mind that in fact you do love your Saviour, that you do hate sin, that you do hate your sinful nature, that you have put aside the present world."

    -John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon5.html

    "To be holy is, in our Church's words, to have 'the true circumcision of the Spirit;' that is, to be separate from sin, to hate the works of the world, the flesh, and the devil; to take pleasure in keeping God's commandments; to do things as He would have us do them; to live habitually as in the sight of the world to come, as if we had broken the ties of this life, and were dead already. Why cannot we be saved without possessing such a frame and temper of mind?...."

    -John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon1.html

    Christian, would'st thou learn to love?
    First learn thee how to hate.
    Hatred of sin and zeal and fear
    Lead up the Holy Hill;
    Track them, till charity appear
    A self-denial still.

    -John Henry Newman, http://www.newmanreader.org/biography/jafroude.html

    Do I not hate them that hate thee, O Lord?
    And do I not loathe them that rise up against thee?
    I hate them with perfect hatred;*
    I count them my enemies.

    -Psalm 139 (RSV) (138, Douay-Rheims) : 21-22

    *Note, Douay-Rheims, Challoner: "Not with an hatred of malice, but a zeal for the observance of God's commandments; which he saw were despised by the wicked, who are to be considered enemies to God."

    "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

    -God, Mt. 12:30

    Such is the Church Militant. Join it.

    Age, thou art shamed.*
    O shame, where is thy blush?**

    -Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**

    Offline Matto

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 03:09:57 PM »
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  • There are probably more sodomites who are "straight" than sodomites who are homosexuals. I would guess that most acts of sodomy occur not between two homosexuals but between "straight" men and women. So the term homosexual is actually a more accurate term than sodomite when referring to those who commit sexual sins with others of the same gender because sodomite is a broader category than homosexual that includes many "straight" men and women in addition to the homosexuals.


    Offline Kailyn

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 03:21:13 PM »
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  • Jitpring, I'm unaware of the original context, but I would agree with the OP that the two terms are not synonymous.

    Offline Jehanne

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 03:41:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jitpring
    Such is the Church Militant. Join it.


    Don't forget,

    Leviticus 18:22:   "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination."

    Leviticus 20:13:   "If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them."

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."


    Offline SJB

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 03:43:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Koch-Preuss, Handbook of Moral Theology
    SINS THAT CRY TO HEAVEN

    b)SODOMY is the sin for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God. The term includes all kinds of unnatural copulation, particularly when committed between persons of the same sex, and all practices aiming at the prevention of conception.

    Sodomy is closely related to murder. Both crimes are directed against the preservation of the human race, and, moreover, cruelty and lust, heartlessness and debauchery, bloodthirst and unchastity (Sadism, Masochism) usually go hand in hand. Holy Scripture condemns the conduct of Onan, not only because he had a wicked intention, but because he did a detestable thing.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline s2srea

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 04:32:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Jitpring
    Such is the Church Militant. Join it.


    Don't forget,

    Leviticus 18:22:   "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination."

    Leviticus 20:13:   "If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them."

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."


    Please don't turn into a protestant or act like them people... Yes the book of Leviticus said these things, however please do not forget about Christ and his New Law which trumped, fufilled, and perfected the old. We're not about to go kill homosexuals now.

    Here is a response I had to someone on another forum (which sucked cause I was the only Catholic (Traditional at that) on the thread)

    Here were some of my responses:

    ...No PG. I was responding to your question of why Leviticus is used to condemn homosexuality by Christians, and why Christians do not follow the other laws listed in it (shell fish, slavery, etc). You did not originally quote Leviticus, other 'Christians' on this thread did. You were correct to be confused, and I've already clarified that point above (we shouldn't use, and do not need, Leviticus for to point out the errors of Homosexual acts). Hopefully, some will investigate prior to posting from now on arguments in this case. I hope this clarify's for you a little. ...


    ...The analogies to the Bible's view between homosexual practice and those laws found in Leviticus(i.e.: slavery, diet, women's roles) have been made and referred to on this thread a few times. There are however problems with using these analogies in argument. First of all, they are dated analogies. ....

    Let me clarify, you are trying to compare the (dated) views of the old testament, to what 'Christians' today view. 'Christians' basis for disdain of homosexuality is not rooted in the Old Testament solely. A more accurate (and correct) analogy would be to compare homosexuality with other things Christians stand against. Adult-consented incest and polyamory (having multiple consenting partners). It may very well be that you do not think these things are incorrect, but Christians hold them as sinful as homosexuality. Now there's a correct analogy....

    ...Well Scripture shows that Jesus heeded God's creation of male and female as a complementary sexual pair for both limiting the number of persons in a relationship to two or in the case of polygamy or even in the case of divorce and remarriage. And there are other arguments, which would go along with this one, to prove that the idea of Jesus having the slightest openness about homosexual relationships and unions is flawed. If you'd like me to find them (respectfully speaking) please let me know and I will share...

     

    Remember we are Christian, Roman Catholics, not Jews/ Hebrews. We have a much better, perfect, and complete law

    Offline SJB

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 05:10:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Koch-Preuss, Handbook of Moral Theology
    SINS THAT CRY TO HEAVEN

    b)SODOMY is the sin for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God. The term includes all kinds of unnatural copulation, particularly when committed between persons of the same sex, and all practices aiming at the prevention of conception.

    Sodomy is closely related to murder. Both crimes are directed against the preservation of the human race, and, moreover, cruelty and lust, heartlessness and debauchery, bloodthirst and unchastity (Sadism, Masochism) usually go hand in hand. Holy Scripture condemns the conduct of Onan, not only because he had a wicked intention, but because he did a detestable thing.



    This is hardly some misquoted Old Testament verse. Sodomy is a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline s2srea

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 05:22:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Leviticus 20:13:   "If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them."


    I'm not saying the text itself was misquoted, just the boled parts.

    You can see he, Jehanne, also quoted the NT to support his view, which is what I would have done as well.

    Quote from: Jehanne

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."



    Offline Sigismund

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    "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 08:46:40 PM »
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  • If you want everyone to understand what you mean, then "homosexual" is probably the best term.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 04:05:23 PM »
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  • I think what is meant by a "homosexual" is an effeminate. Sodomites are effeminates who are, as St. Paul calls them, "sleepers with men" (i.e., engaging in those filthy acts); cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-10, where this distinction is made.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »
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  • How about calling them aberrosexual?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 06:39:12 PM »
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  • How about calling them aberrosexual?
    aberrant: deviating from the usual or natural type: atypical, abnormal; straying from the right or normal way

    No, I don't believe that word is the ideal one - not specific enough. There is aberrosexuality that is neither homosexuality nor sodomy.

    My pet hate is the use of the word "gay" to describe homosexual perversion.

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 11:47:33 PM »
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  • My pet hate is the use of the word "gay" to describe homosexual perversion.
    The word "homosexual" is only about a century old, and it doesn't even make sense etymologically: "human-sexual"? That makes it sound like beings that copulate only with humans…
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #13 on: September 16, 2017, 12:17:36 AM »
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  • The word "homosexual" is only about a century old, and it doesn't even make sense etymologically: "human-sexual"? That makes it sound like beings that copulate only with humans…
    Nevertheless it is, like other words more recently coined (language changes and develops), it is a useful word to describe a certain unnatural perversion. You misunderstand the meaning of the word homosexual. Homo does not mean human. The word root 'homo' comes from the Greek word homos, which means 'Same', just as the word homogeneous means of the same kind.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: "Sodomite" or "homosexual"?
    « Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 05:03:53 PM »
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  • aberrant: deviating from the usual or natural type: atypical, abnormal; straying from the right or normal way

    No, I don't believe that word is the ideal one - not specific enough. There is aberrosexuality that is neither homosexuality nor sodomy.

    My pet hate is the use of the word "gay" to describe homosexual perversion.
    Yes, that is a clear word. I would also suggest pervert or rather "those who choose to engage in perversion."
    Since we are to hate the sin but love the sinner, it's better to use a term which describes the despicable behavior a person chooses to engage in, rather than a term which describes the person.
    That's one reason I prefer the term "sodomite" to the term "homosexual." A person may have an inclination to that particular sin (homosexual orientation) and not act on it.
    That is the difference between the Catholic group called Courage for those who are committed to the Church and committed to avoiding that sin -- and the other N.O. Catholic group misnamed Dignity which is for those who choose sin and pretend to be Catholics at the same time.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

     

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