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Author Topic: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision  (Read 7866 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
« Reply #240 on: October 24, 2018, 01:00:39 PM »
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  • No matter how many times you keep repeating the opposite doesn't make it true.  As for the flat earth go to flat earth section of Cathinfo and learn that it is Scriptural, promoted by the Fathers of the Church and the globe is a pagan belief.

    Unlike yourself, I have made logical arguments and cited St. Thomas.  You just keep repeating your statement ad nauseam.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #241 on: October 24, 2018, 01:27:30 PM »
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  • I doubt that spiritual penalties apply to people who have circuмcised their sons because they believed the lies that it was a necessary medical procedure.  I would love to see somebody knowledgeable (like Mithrandylan) analyze that situation.

    Personally, it was a no-brainer when my sons were born that we would not circuмcise them. My husband was from a culture that was not infected with misinformation on circuмcision (probably because it was historically Catholic) so there was no expectation or pressure from his side of the family.  And for me, as a convert from Judaism, it was important to distance myself from my Jєωιѕн background.

    Psychology Today has a lot of information from a secular perspective debunking all the myths about it being a necessary or beneficial procedure for health.  If anyone is facing pressure or criticism from family for refusing to circuмcise, it can be helpful to have these facts on hand.  Here is one and it contains links to others: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201307/pro-circuмcision-culturally-biased-not-scientific-experts
    .
    Aw gee.  Anyways I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already.  Contextually, it's very clear that what's being proscribed against is a religious ritual which, Pope Eugene IV reminds us, is of no salvific value whatsoever.  Only proof-texting Feeneyites could get confused on this point.  Medical circuмcision didn't exist until five hundred years later.  
    .
    That being said, I am against circuмcision for medical reasons because there simply are no medical reasons.  Circuмcision was popularized as a medical procedure by a Protestant doctor who believed that it made self-abuse more difficult.  True or not, the practice became "customary" and has continued to be used (although thankfully I think the use is not as popular as it was) in the medical profession under the guise of "cleanliness."  In point of fact I would argue that circuмcision constitutes a proper mutilation since it impedes the function of the male member without sufficient reason.  Parts are good inasmuch as they contribute to a whole; the functions of the foreskin aid the generative act and protect the generative member; the only cause sufficient to excise it would be a cause that poses a risk to that whole (which theoretically could exist, but as a matter of course simply does not).  Short of that I would consider it mutilative and therefore objectively, an evil.  But my reasoning, you'll note, has nothing at all to do with the Council of Florence.  This reasoning would exist even if there had never been a Council of Florence.
    .
    At the same time, I would not usually regard a parent who decided to circuмcise their son as being guilty simply because they'll typically be making the decision under the impression that it is a legitimate medical operation which supports and promotes the health of their son.  They're wrong about that, but only in fact.  They should be informed, but they do not need to be corrected.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #242 on: October 24, 2018, 02:43:07 PM »
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  • .
    Aw gee.  Anyways I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already.  Contextually, it's very clear that what's being proscribed against is a religious ritual which, Pope Eugene IV reminds us, is of no salvific value whatsoever.  Only proof-texting Feeneyites could get confused on this point.  Medical circuмcision didn't exist until five hundred years later.  
    .
    That being said, I am against circuмcision for medical reasons because there simply are no medical reasons.  Circuмcision was popularized as a medical procedure by a Protestant doctor who believed that it made self-abuse more difficult.  True or not, the practice became "customary" and has continued to be used (although thankfully I think the use is not as popular as it was) in the medical profession under the guise of "cleanliness."  In point of fact I would argue that circuмcision constitutes a proper mutilation since it impedes the function of the male member without sufficient reason.  Parts are good inasmuch as they contribute to a whole; the functions of the foreskin aid the generative act and protect the generative member; the only cause sufficient to excise it would be a cause that poses a risk to that whole (which theoretically could exist, but as a matter of course simply does not).  Short of that I would consider it mutilative and therefore objectively, an evil.  But my reasoning, you'll note, has nothing at all to do with the Council of Florence.  This reasoning would exist even if there had never been a Council of Florence.
    .
    At the same time, I would not usually regard a parent who decided to circuмcise their son as being guilty simply because they'll typically be making the decision under the impression that it is a legitimate medical operation which supports and promotes the health of their son.  They're wrong about that, but only in fact.  They should be informed, but they do not need to be corrected.

    This is a very good, balanced, Catholic view.  I would merely distinguish between "objectively" an evil vs. intrinsically ... meaning, were there sufficient medical purpose, it could be justified.  And God would not mandate something that's intrinsically evil on His people.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #243 on: October 24, 2018, 02:51:50 PM »
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  • Incidentally-- and this bears on a matter of fact, not on a theological point-- the Old Covenant circuмcision was substantially different than medical circuмcision.  The Old Testament circuмcision excised only a very small part of the foreskin's tip, leaving the foreskin essentially intact and functioning.  Medical circuмcision, on the other hand, removes the entire foreskin.  It's like the difference between piercing your ear and lopping it off. 
    .
    What God required of the Hebrews wasn't even materially the same as medical circuмcision.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #244 on: October 24, 2018, 02:54:16 PM »
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  • .
    Aw gee.  Anyways I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already.  Contextually, it's very clear that what's being proscribed against is a religious ritual which, Pope Eugene IV reminds us, is of no salvific value whatsoever.  Only proof-texting Feeneyites could get confused on this point.  Medical circuмcision didn't exist until five hundred years later.  
    .
    That being said, I am against circuмcision for medical reasons because there simply are no medical reasons.  Circuмcision was popularized as a medical procedure by a Protestant doctor who believed that it made self-abuse more difficult.  True or not, the practice became "customary" and has continued to be used (although thankfully I think the use is not as popular as it was) in the medical profession under the guise of "cleanliness."  In point of fact I would argue that circuмcision constitutes a proper mutilation since it impedes the function of the male member without sufficient reason.  Parts are good inasmuch as they contribute to a whole; the functions of the foreskin aid the generative act and protect the generative member; the only cause sufficient to excise it would be a cause that poses a risk to that whole (which theoretically could exist, but as a matter of course simply does not).  Short of that I would consider it mutilative and therefore objectively, an evil.  But my reasoning, you'll note, has nothing at all to do with the Council of Florence.  This reasoning would exist even if there had never been a Council of Florence.
    .
    At the same time, I would not usually regard a parent who decided to circuмcise their son as being guilty simply because they'll typically be making the decision under the impression that it is a legitimate medical operation which supports and promotes the health of their son.  They're wrong about that, but only in fact.  They should be informed, but they do not need to be corrected.
     They should be informed and corrected.  The Church asks us not to do it and attaches a penalty.  The Church doesn't say, "only if you think its a ceremony from the Jєωs".  She even says whether you believe it or not. Since you are not God, and cannot possibly understand why God would care enough to attach an anathema to circuмcision, then you can't say correction doesn't matter.  What is the worst that could happen if they were corrected?  They'd mention it in confession?        


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #245 on: October 24, 2018, 02:57:26 PM »
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  • Incidentally-- and this bears on a matter of fact, not on a theological point-- the Old Covenant circuмcision was substantially different than medical circuмcision.  The Old Testament circuмcision excised only a very small part of the foreskin's tip, leaving the foreskin essentially intact and functioning.  Medical circuмcision, on the other hand, removes the entire foreskin.  It's like the difference between piercing your ear and lopping it off.  
    .
    What God required of the Hebrews wasn't even materially the same as medical circuмcision.
    Even worse.  Today's circuмcision is flaying, then chopping off a viable body part.  That qualifies as mutilation, which is also forbidden.  But one has to ask themselves if they're honest.  Why is all of this called 'circuмcision'?  And why is it practiced when the Church said not to?   

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #246 on: October 24, 2018, 03:01:52 PM »
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  • What God required of the Hebrews wasn't even materially the same as medical circuмcision.

    Both technically qualify as mutilation, the difference being one of degree.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #247 on: October 24, 2018, 03:05:14 PM »
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  • Happenby, don't you remember the last time you and I discussed this? https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/catholics-cannot-circuмcise-without-the-loss-of-eternal-salvation/

    Matthew was so offended by your stupid ideas that he deleted your posts and locked the thread.  

    On this topic you've already made up your mind in a prototypically womanly way, impassioned and impervious to reason and the most basic distinctions.  I don't even think you and I disagree regarding the bottom line question "should Catholics be medically circuмcised" but you've managed to reach that conclusion for the dumbest reasons.  Do you still think that it's a Zionist conspiracy to incorporate Catholics into Judaism, too?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #248 on: October 24, 2018, 03:07:20 PM »
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  • Even worse.  Today's circuмcision is flaying, then chopping off a viable body part.  That qualifies as mutilation, which is also forbidden.  But one has to ask themselves if they're honest.  Why is all of this called 'circuмcision'?  And why is it practiced when the Church said not to?  

    Just go away, please.  This has been explained 50 times, most recently by Mith, that what the Church said "not to" was circuмcision as a religious observance.  What remains is a medical discussion about the benefits (or lack thereof) of circuмcision.  Re-read what Mith wrote, slowly, about a dozen times, and abandon this thread.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #249 on: October 24, 2018, 03:11:00 PM »
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  • She even says whether you believe it or not.

    Church said whether you "hope" in it or not, and St. Thomas Aquinas clearly explained what is meant by that.  And, now, I'm repeating THIS for the 10th time.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #250 on: October 24, 2018, 03:27:13 PM »
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  • I hadn't seen the other thread before.  For the record, here's what Matthew had to say on the other thread:

    Quote
    Mithrandylan has given the Catholic viewpoint on this issue.

    Happenby's "dogmatic" stance on it is a private interpretation of Tradition (in this case, the Council of Florence). And her private interpretation of Tradition is no better or more accurate than your average Protestant's ham-fisted attempts to privately interpret Scripture. Both are wrong.

    We must follow the teaching of the Church.

    Everything Mithrandylan said is correct. He seems to have all the nuances of the argument covered, so I needn't repeat him or elaborate.
    ..........
    Ok I'm the Moderator and I'm moderating this thread.

    This thread is closed.

    I couldn't agree more.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Traditional Catholicism and Circuмcision
    « Reply #251 on: October 24, 2018, 04:18:31 PM »
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  • .
    Aw gee.  Anyways I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already.  Contextually, it's very clear that what's being proscribed against is a religious ritual which, Pope Eugene IV reminds us, is of no salvific value whatsoever.  Only proof-texting Feeneyites could get confused on this point.  Medical circuмcision didn't exist until five hundred years later.  
    .
    That being said, I am against circuмcision for medical reasons because there simply are no medical reasons.  Circuмcision was popularized as a medical procedure by a Protestant doctor who believed that it made self-abuse more difficult.  True or not, the practice became "customary" and has continued to be used (although thankfully I think the use is not as popular as it was) in the medical profession under the guise of "cleanliness."  In point of fact I would argue that circuмcision constitutes a proper mutilation since it impedes the function of the male member without sufficient reason.  Parts are good inasmuch as they contribute to a whole; the functions of the foreskin aid the generative act and protect the generative member; the only cause sufficient to excise it would be a cause that poses a risk to that whole (which theoretically could exist, but as a matter of course simply does not).  Short of that I would consider it mutilative and therefore objectively, an evil.  But my reasoning, you'll note, has nothing at all to do with the Council of Florence.  This reasoning would exist even if there had never been a Council of Florence.
    .
    At the same time, I would not usually regard a parent who decided to circuмcise their son as being guilty simply because they'll typically be making the decision under the impression that it is a legitimate medical operation which supports and promotes the health of their son.  They're wrong about that, but only in fact.  They should be informed, but they do not need to be corrected.
    Thank you, Mithrandylan.  You have a real gift for explaining Church teaching.