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Author Topic: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"  (Read 1622 times)

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Offline FiannFdla

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"Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
« on: December 22, 2021, 03:09:09 PM »
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  • The title of this thread refers to a response one might expect from an Indult or Novus Ordo attendee, when affirming to them that Vatican II heralded the establishment a new man-made religion, a Protestantised and Humanist corruption of the true Faith. From such a statement they may feel that they are being accused of not being Catholic.

    How would you respond to such a rejoinder? 

    I am new to Tradition myself and I'm wondering what the best way of addressing the issue is to my Indult/NO friends. How can I explain that people can be Catholic while affiliated with what is not the Catholic Faith?


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #1 on: December 22, 2021, 03:18:44 PM »
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  • If you’re validly baptized, you’re Catholic.  Whether of good will or evil, whether a good Catholic practicing the Faith to your best ability or a bad Catholic, careless of the Faith, lax, or even deliberately acting in opposition to the Faith is another matter.
    I would consider you Catholic, no question.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #2 on: December 22, 2021, 03:25:43 PM »
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  • A Catholic professes the Catholic Faith.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #3 on: December 22, 2021, 03:28:44 PM »
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  • A Catholic professes the Catholic Faith.
    Correct profession doesn’t make you Catholic.  The Sacrament of Baptism, properly administered, form, matter, intent, makes a person Catholic.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #4 on: December 22, 2021, 03:30:15 PM »
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  • Correct profession doesn’t make you Catholic.  The Sacrament of Baptism, properly administered, form, matter, intent, makes a person Catholic.
    One needs both.  Someone could be validly baptized and not profess the Catholic faith. 


    Offline dxcat40

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #5 on: December 22, 2021, 03:31:50 PM »
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  • I affirm 2Vermont and add this from Mystici Corporis:


    Quote
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” 17 As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. 18 And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered — so the Lord commands — as a heathen and a publican. 19 It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

    Source: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12mysti.htm
    My emphasis above.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #6 on: December 22, 2021, 03:51:51 PM »
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  • This question requires mych more nuancing.

    This could be addressed canonically, theologically, morally, or culturally.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #7 on: December 22, 2021, 04:04:22 PM »
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  • The title of this thread refers to a response one might expect from an Indult or Novus Ordo attendee, when affirming to them that Vatican II heralded the establishment a new man-made religion, a Protestantised and Humanist corruption of the true Faith. From such a statement they may feel that they are being accused of not being Catholic.

    How would you respond to such a rejoinder?

    I am new to Tradition myself and I'm wondering what the best way of addressing the issue is to my Indult/NO friends. How can I explain that people can be Catholic while affiliated with what is not the Catholic Faith?
    When I was in the Novus Ordo, although I was baptized, I was without a doubt NOT A CATHOLIC.  I believed and professed the Vatican II religion, not the Catholic religion. 


    Offline Ernie1969ray

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #8 on: December 22, 2021, 06:27:52 PM »
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  • Yes you are Catholic. I think you are confused. Their are many Rites in the Catholic church. In the creed we say, one true, holy, apostolic, Catholic Church. Notice it does not say Roman Catholic. The Greeks and Syrians were at that council in 325. I consider NO to be the Roman rite, and the old Mass to be that old Roman rite.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #9 on: December 22, 2021, 08:06:41 PM »
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  • Correct profession doesn’t make you Catholic.  The Sacrament of Baptism, properly administered, form, matter, intent, makes a person Catholic.



    So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

    https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/so-what's-wrong-with-the-term-'once-a-catholic-always-a-catholic'/msg595516/#msg595516



    There's some (tiny bit of) truth to it, but it's misused by R&R types like Father Wathen and Stubborn.

    In one sense, once someone has been baptized a Catholic and come into subjection to the Pope, that relationship remains.  That's why, for instance, those who were baptized Catholic, even if raised Protestant, cannot validly marry outside the Church ... because the Church retains this jurisdiction over them.

    But it's patently false to say that a Catholic can never lose membership in the Church.  There's no Pope, no Church Father, no Doctor, and no approved Catholic theologians who has ever taught that one cannot leave the Church, lose membership in the Church, and go from inside the Church to outside the Church.  That is a novelty invented by Father Wathen to explain R&R ... and Stubborn has been pushing this nonsense around here for a long time.

    Now, if one wanted to argue that the Baptismal character alone suffices to hold office in the Church, even without profession of the true faith and subjection to the Holy Father, then one could try to make that case.  But "once Catholic always Catholic" is ridiculous.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #10 on: December 22, 2021, 08:32:49 PM »
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  • Ask them what they think on EENS. That's literally the line in the sand and anyone with an ecclesiology/"ecuмenism" reconfigured by VII is in danger of not being Catholic. It's going to sound autistic but after that recent poll I think it's clearly THE defining question...

    82% of "catholics" reject MULTIPLE Catholic dogmas, so I think this line of questioning is the way to go.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 08:36:55 PM »
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  • Ask them what they think on EENS. That's literally the line in the sand and anyone with an ecclesiology/"ecuмenism" reconfigured by VII is in danger of not being Catholic. It's going to sound autistic but after that recent poll I think it's clearly THE defining question...

    82% of "catholics" reject MULTIPLE Catholic dogmas, so I think this line of questioning is the way to go.
    That is absolutely abhorrent. Only 16% of professing "Catholics" believe in EENS. Abominable. :facepalm:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: "Do you think I'm not Catholic?"
    « Reply #12 on: December 22, 2021, 08:52:26 PM »
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  • That is absolutely abhorrent. Only 16% of professing "Catholics" believe in EENS. Abominable. :facepalm:
    This topic is always an abstract boogeyman until there's polls like this. You don't even have to agree with somebody to clearly see that ecclesiology is THE defining issue of the last 100 years, he was just the first to say it. Who is Catholic and not is actually simple and it's the 800lb gorilla in the room that most aren't willing to address. 

    A whole different discussion is the subsets of that 16%, that's the more interesting statistic IMO since that's where there can even be any real (or perceived) debate on the topic.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.