26 July 2007
Non Solius Sum!


I just interviewed a guy today who has a Master's Degree in Philosophy. I have a bachelor's (two of them) but he will be under me. His life story is remarkably similar to mine:

    * Traditional Catholic
    * Couldn't find work with a Philosophy degree
    * short stint in Catholic schools ended when liberal principals fired him
    * non-education jobs didn't work
    * got in a rut
    * competed with illegal immigrants for jobs like I did
    * Finally got called by Walmart and is in the same position I am in.

Small world. It reminds me of one guy I knew casually in College, who got a doctorate in Theology in Rome, got married, and couldn't get a job doing anything. The degree (especially a doctorate) made him overqualified, and he didn't have recent enough experience in other stuff. So, he got a job working at McDonalds. One day, when he was handing out orders through the window, a woman turned to her daughter and said "See, that is what will happen to you if you don't go to college." True story, I'm not making it up. One might as well say that is what will happen to you if you do go to college!

This is why I wrote some time ago that you should not send your kids to college. Of course, I was speaking about the arts, not the applied sciences. Nevertheless, sooner or later we have to realize that not only is our society not tailored to provide jobs for arts majors, (i.e. Theology, history, philosophy, literature, etc.), but increasingly it is capable of providing decent jobs for those who do not go into debt between 20 and 80 thousand dollars like myself and this fellow whose education now prepares him to work at...... Walmart! Its almost like something out of the Grapes of Wrath.

Rather than make this an apologia for Distributism, I'd rather focus on something else. Our country is so obsessed with sending kids to "college" when our colleges are wastelands of non-thought. As George Orwell said in his masterpiece 1984, "It is an idea so stupid only an Academic could think of it!" People even take second mortgages on their houses so their children can get C's in remedial math courses at college. At least all my debt is on me and my parents don't have to foot the bill, just from a justice standpoint. Now, how much better off would we be if more american children were sent into trade schools and tech schools! They would make more money instead of drifting from job to job, career to career. I've already changed careers 5 times. I know others who have been in 8 or 9 different industries. On the other hand, those I know who out of high school went into some kind of blue collar work make more than I do. For that matter, they made more than I did when I was a high school teacher! Moreover, those who got their degrees in the applied sciences also tend to stay within one or two careers, because no matter what politics pilfer through, science is still science. A professor can drone on all he wants about Darwin, it still doesn't change the structure of the cell, or how cells respond to environment, medical treatment, etc. A computer professor can make all the tangents he wants into global warming, atheism, world politics, but it doesn't change the circuitry of a Pentium processor. Yet our science programs in universities are full of foreigners, who take that skill back to their own countries (because the government is only interested in letting unskilled illegal immigrants stay in the country for some inane reason). If I had at least double majored in business I could have an MBA and be in a very different position, even in this economically depressed area. But hindsight is always 20/20, as it is for my new employee. At least I have someone I can talk about Hegel's logic with.

On the other hand, it doesn't need to be for the good Catholic parent, who can make positive decisions to help their children find their way into careers without debt, by teaching them a trade, preferably from early on. Any learning in the arts can be given by good books and good priests. College simply isn't worth wasting your time on.

Posted by Athanasius at 7:09 PM  

Labels: Common sense, Education

I second the motion! I was very impressed by that post.

It echoes many thoughts I've had, and it's pretty much the strategy I'm going to take with my kids (i.e., don't waste time on TV, rather spend time acquiring some skill through much practice -- what else are kids going to waste their time on? They have nothing but time)

See what they're talented in, help them discern God's will -- if they are brilliant they will get scholarships. If not, then learn a trade via apprenticeship of some sort.

Matthew

I agree also that college is a waste of time.

I think it depends on the field, and the degree. Right now, for example, there's something of a shortage of doctors. It may no longer be the 'road to riches' it once was. But I think most will still be able to pay back the student loans and still afford the insurance, with plenty left to invest. There are all the government jobs that are guaranteed, and I think somewhat overpaid. While unions prosper in certain big cities, there will be at least six figures to be made if you know someone who knows someone to get you into one of these elitist unions.

And if you get a Ph.D., as in this case, you don't need to be in the field. What you might want to do is get an MBA. And together, I would think that qualifies you for executive positions in any number of staid corporations - corporate officer. Getting a law degree couldn't hurt. Maybe a prestige name, like Harvard, would be a further advantage. But I'm sure many do just fine without that.

Here I was thinking about the value of college education, and then I came across this!  My main thought -- did $150,000 worth of university education succeed in helping this man to earn a "killing" whereby he could pay back his loan AND live better?

My impression is that he doesn't make much more than me -- and I don't make a lot! Another example of how you have to be really careful (prudent) when going into debt for college.


My name is Nicole. My husband and I are so in-debt. He was in school FT
at a private university for 7 years and has $150,000 for student loans
and a $1,000 a month payment for that. We have a car loan for about
$7,000 with a payment of $275 for 3 more years and a huge credit card
$16,000 that we usually pay at least $700 a month on. We are in over
our head. We applied for a home equity loan but were denied. They said
we had good credit but our debt to income ratio was too high and that
we have our mortgage through a private lender...they said if we had
them sign a paper saying that the home equity would be paid first when
we sell our home that would be ok. We feel really stuck right now and
live paycheck to paycheck. With 3 children and 1 one the way we are
feeling overwhelmed. I am a big coupon lady and save quite a bit of
money that way. My goal for the remainder of the year is to only buy
the necessities to help us sustain our family, home, work and car. Plus
gifts for family birthdays and our direct family for Christmas.

My husband went to school for his PharmD at a local, private university
that was quite costly. The only jobs in the area that are plentiful are
the low paying jobs and the ones no one wants. Over a year ago he took
an "OK" job that is quite a drive for him everyday, we are paying
almost $1,000 every month to his student loan payments and it is
overwhelming. The only thing we have is some equity in our home. We
applied for a home equity loan to tackle a credit card and to have
money for a down payment/$ for 2 house payments if that arises. We need
to move closet to his work, as he travels and is on call sometimes and
needs to go to the office or to make a delivery (lots of gas money).
Yesterday we applied to get a home equity loan and were turned down
because I am a SAHM/no income and my husband's debt to income ratio is
too high because of his school loans. We were afraid it might happen
but were told by the bank that it would not be an issue. Not quite sure
what to do, except wait for our home to sell.

Nicole

It all depends on what subject you take, of course Philosophy is a waste of time when it comes to making money there is no demand for it in the world of work, you can't make me any money from it so I wouldn't employ you, philosphers have nearly always been either been poor or where rich before they became philosophers.

So-called 'liberal arts' is almost worthless because it invariably is disguised and undisguised rebellion from the usual instructors such as the proponents of the Terror to Marx and Engels and whoever else. It allows one to ingratiate themselves to the wealthy, and serve them at a fairly good wage, at their sufferance, but does nothing to produce wisdom.

Theology would be important, clearing the mind, grounding decisions, teaching what to expect in others, and making it possible to deal with the 'difficult co-worker', and making it more likely that one makes the right decisions in business and in ones personal life. But where such philosophies and 'liberal arts' are today typical of the dead end of non-accredited programs, theology could prove very valuable.

There's another thing, too. Pharmacists are also in demand, and will be increasingly so. Doctors, too. Both can be noble, if very risky trades. But a decent mechanic might earn more than a much more skilled engineer. The engineer has to complete with out-sourcing and internet gurus and shops. The engineering professor does not.

It all depends on what subject you take, of course Philosophy is a waste of time when it comes to making money there is no demand for it in the world of work, you can't make me any money from it so I wouldn't employ you, philosphers have nearly always been either been poor or where rich before they became philosophers.

If you where to learn something like engineering however you would find it much easier to make money.

The moral of the story isn't that college is a waste of time it is that a degree in philosophy is a waste of time if you goal is to get a high paying job.

If your goal is to gain a better understanding of things then philosophy is the way to go but don't expect to make big bucks.

This is why I would never let any of my children pursue studies in philosophy except in their leisure time, first you must master a servile art in order to secure for yourself a living the liberal arts are what you study for pleasure in your free time.  The liberal arts are more like a hobby is what I am saying here I guess.  Trying to make a living out of them is like trying to make a living out of watching the tv or drinking beer.

True. I think sociology is a waste of time too. You really can't get much work in this field.

Right now, for example, there's something of a shortage of doctors.

Medical doctors?  Much of their "medicine" is lethal, so we do not want any more of them.

Quote from: dust-7

Right now, for example, there's something of a shortage of doctors.

Medical doctors?  Much of their "medicine" is lethal, so we do not want any more of them.

I mentioned it, too, because the 'husband of Nicole' apparently got a degree as a pharmacist. And there's demand there, as well. He may just have to relocate.

I agree with recent complaints that doctors are not quite as good as they used to be. This is something the private societies won't address - they never do. It's actually a role for government. I dislike regulation, and bureaucrats trying to justify their jobs by piling on new lines and new forms with new each 'joint supervisors meeting'. But this is a case where I think some standard needs to be set in the various specialities. I don't think they are doing this at the residency level, which is where I think it needs to be addressed.

I wish I knew more about why things have changed. Perhaps there is less oversight in these residency programs. Perhaps they are of shorter duration. Perhaps too much improvization is allowed. I just don't know.

Perhaps they are allowing in doctors certified in other countries, who are completely bypassing US residencies?