Author Topic: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question? (Read 4111 times)

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2021, 10:18:58 PM »

I'm not an ecclesiastical anarchist like you Dimondites, to condemn holy Bishops. If you disagree with them, write to them and ask them to explain. I bet if someone presented to Bishop Fellay the teaching of St. Alphonsus, on explicit faith, as found in the manuals, H.E. would agree with them. You people are not interested in solving problems, only in self-justification, and in your bitter polemics. I am with Bishop Athanasius, Cardinal Burke, Bishop Fellay and others who are continuing to do much good for the Church. If Bishop Fellay did endorse salvation by implicit faith - and I'm not convinced he did based on what I quoted about what H.E. said on the Jҽωs - then I don't agree with H.E. on that point. If I could converse with His Excellency, I would respectfully point to St. Alphonsus' teaching. My view is Bishop Fellay would almost certainly agree with St. Alphonsus Liguori, if he doesn't already do so, when respectfully presented.

I quoted numerous Popes, Saints, Doctors, Catechisms, Councils, Manuals and Theologians that teach exactly what I believe.

donkath · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2021, 10:46:39 PM »

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Dear Donkath, I must have answered Last Tradhican's question on what I believe like 10 times....

Thank you for your reply Xaviersem.

Putting your answer in the positive it becomes:

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I believe that without explicit faith no-one will be saved
- without conversion*
- without explicit faith in Jesus Christ**
- perfect contrition***

Your answer makes it perfectly clear to me that you (yourself- i.e. apart from any people you quote) reject what Archbishop Lefebvre said.

* Baptised members of the Catholic Church
** The Catholic Church
*** The Sacraments (found only in the Catholic Church)

There is no condemnation of the Archbishop or B. Fellay or anybody in giving your opinion.

I value your opinion.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2021, 11:10:29 PM »

Thank you Donkath. God bless you. Archbishop Lefebvre was a blessing to us all. There is a legitimate theological issue on the explicit-implicit faith matter, well known among pre-Vatican II theologians, that really needs to be discussed and resolved in the Church today.

Msgr. Fenton: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation."

The same is taught by Fr. Michael Mueller and St. Alphonsus Liguori: " “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles – the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons – is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’

donkath · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2021, 12:36:25 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 18, 2021, 11:10:29 PM

Thank you Donkath. God bless you. Archbishop Lefebvre was a blessing to us all. There is a legitimate theological issue on the explicit-implicit faith matter, well known among pre-Vatican II theologians, that really needs to be discussed and resolved in the Church today.

Msgr. Fenton: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation."

The same is taught by Fr. Michael Mueller and St. Alphonsus Liguori: " “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles – the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons – is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’

I have been taught that -
The time before Christ was a time of prophecy
Then Christ Himself became Incarnate - the fulfilment of all prophecy. He is THE PROPHET! There is no prophet after Him. Christ is the fulfilment of all prophecy. (The Gifts of Prophecy are another thing - spoken of by St. Paul.)
With Christ came the time of the Church and the Fathers/Doctors etc. to define Doctrine.
These stages present a picture in my mind where they all have one thing in common.

That is the heart of man. And God looks at the heart.

Christ often commented on the faith in the heart of his apostles, disciples, followers, woman with haemorraging daughter, tax collecter, Centurian, the Rich Man/Lazarus etc. etc.
Then there are children like Lucy, Jacinto, Marto - child martyrs/saints.
They knew their basic Catechism (doctrine). But it was the infused gift of Faith that brought doctrine to life. Without the gift of faith doctrine is a dead thing surely.
Doctrine spells out the bottom line. From that undiluted launching pad reason lifts a soul into a lifetime of prayer and communion with the Father through Christ (now in His Church.)

The Liturgical living out of the Faith day by each Catholic from the holiest monk to the lowliest pewsitter like moi are a living symphony of ongoing worship to the Father.
I guess doctrine is somewhat like what Moses had to do when, having to make laws for divorce, he was confronted with the hardness of heart of unbelievers(?)
Too many words dilute the conciseness of core doctrine.

Xaviersem, in my own clumsy way I am trying to share that there came a time when yours truly realised that she had to grow up and stay grown-up
I have to go beyond staying in prep school and reciting my abc over and over. From child>ABC>words>ideas>sentences>speak/pray/work<to adult
The Church cannot teach me any more by words. I have to put into practice what I have learned. The path is straight - who cares if it is narrow? I have been supplied with weapons.
Now I have to use them. And this latter is where I fall down badly. But so did the saints who kept getting up. And who give strength by their merits.

Nothing can be added to nor taken away from Mother Church who is all-perfect - like a conceptus where every part of the human person is present until death. Everything is already there.

donkath · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2021, 03:19:43 AM »

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There is a legitimate theological issue on the explicit-implicit faith matter, well known among pre-Vatican II theologians, that really needs to be discussed and resolved in the Church today.

For the sake of clarity, what I was trying to say, in the above post, is that further discussion will add nothing to what has already been taught and set in concrete. Rather the opposite - because what is being argued is opinions. Reflection, prayer, penance allowing grace to sanctify us will bring us together in love and action - not endless discussions. The noise is deafening and ends in a babel (as in tower) of voices. :)

If the faith is not embedded in our hearts by now standing on the solid rock of unchangeable/speculative doctrine, how are we going to survive while our chief Shepherd and his minions have turned against the flock dismantling doctrine piece by piece? The generation now spawned have no points of reference left.

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Author Topic: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question? (Read 4111 times)

Nishant Xavier

Re: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question?

donkath

Re: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question?

Nishant Xavier

Re: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question?

donkath

Re: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question?

donkath

Re: XavierSem - Will He Answer the Simple Question?