Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 1236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Last Tradhican

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Reputation: +1616/-955
  • Gender: Male
Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2019, 10:25:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well faith had meaning during Trent, which is why it makes some type of sense to me. 
    But it does not say (faith), it says the Mystery of Faith, which was understood to mean the same as the sacrament of baptism.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 606
    • Reputation: +147/-107
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #61 on: August 13, 2019, 10:30:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sacrament of faith is another name for the sacrament of baptism. Who added that "(faith)" ?

    It's from papalencyclicals.net:

    Quote
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm



    Quote from: Denzinger/Hünermann, 3. Auflage 2009 (42. Auflage des Gesamtwerks)
    instrumentalis item sacramentum baptismi, quod est "sacramentum fidei", sine qua nulli umquam contigit iustificatio

    qua is female while sacramentum is neuter and  fides is female.

    Thus it's the faith here, without which ...


    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17566
    • Reputation: +9857/-4290
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #62 on: August 13, 2019, 10:37:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's from papalencyclicals.net:
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm



    qua is female while sacramentum is neuter and  fides is female.

    Thus it's the faith here, without which ...

    So?  Faith is a necessary cause of justification.  This does not mean that the Sacrament is not.  In fact, Trent teaches that the Sacrament is necessary for justification also.  So what's your point?

    It sounds like you're trying to turn a necessary cause into a sufficient cause, and that's faulty logic.

    I cannot live without water.  From which you conclude that I can live on water alone.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9385
    • Reputation: +3724/-837
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #63 on: August 13, 2019, 10:40:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've always thought that those in Limbo of the Patriarchs were under the old law which did not require baptism. As far as if they were in a state of sanctifying grace (justified) I never thought about it. I do not believe they could be in the same state of grace as those that are baptized, because those that are baptized are born again by the blood of Christ. Remember that Limbo of the Patriarchs was not just Jews, it contained 5000 years of peoples of all races and beliefs, from all over the world.
    Sounds good to me. Also agrees with Pax re: they died under the old dispensation wherein they were justified without the sacrament. Which brings us back to the question if it is possible under the new law to attain justification before reception of the sacrament of baptism.

    Fr. Feeney just said he did not know, Trent says, assuming the translation is correct, that the sacrament of baptism, "which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified". Seems to say that it is faith that is necessary for justification. No?
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9385
    • Reputation: +3724/-837
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #64 on: August 13, 2019, 10:49:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sounds good to me. Also agrees with Pax re: they died under the old dispensation wherein they were justified without the sacrament. Which brings us back to the question if it is possible under the new law to attain justification before reception of the sacrament of baptism.

    Fr. Feeney just said he did not know, Trent says, assuming the translation is correct, that the sacrament of baptism, "which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified". Seems to say that it is faith that is necessary for justification. No?
    I want to add that if that is the case, then Fr. Feeney would be correct in that there is really no way to know for certain if a person is justified before the sacrament. And we cannot ever know with certainty  unless they have both the faith (which we cannot know but assume they have) and the sacrament.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 606
    • Reputation: +147/-107
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #65 on: August 13, 2019, 11:51:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So?  Faith is a necessary cause of justification.  This does not mean that the Sacrament is not.  In fact, Trent teaches that the Sacrament is necessary for justification also.  So what's your point?

    It sounds like you're trying to turn a necessary cause into a sufficient cause, and that's faulty logic.

    I cannot live without water.  From which you conclude that I can live on water alone.

    Calm down, please!

    Why fight strawmen? You ask questions, imagine possible or impossible answers of mine, just to be able to throw an accusation of "faulty logic" at me.

    I have answered a specific question of Last Tradhican. The addition "(faith)" on papalencyclicals.net seems to be a hint to the reader that the relative clause grammatically refers to the faith.

    Whatever conclusions someone may draw from that specific statement in question, the Decree on Justification unequivocally teaches that since the promulgation of the gospel nobody born in sin is justified without the sacrament of baptism, and that nobody born in sin is justified before the death of Our Lord.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16