Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 5284 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Last Tradhican

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6293
  • Reputation: +3327/-1937
  • Gender: Male
Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2019, 10:25:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well faith had meaning during Trent, which is why it makes some type of sense to me. 
    But it does not say (faith), it says the Mystery of Faith, which was understood to mean the same as the sacrament of baptism.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #61 on: August 13, 2019, 10:30:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sacrament of faith is another name for the sacrament of baptism. Who added that "(faith)" ?

    It's from papalencyclicals.net:

    Quote
    the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm



    Quote from: Denzinger/Hünermann, 3. Auflage 2009 (42. Auflage des Gesamtwerks)
    instrumentalis item sacramentum baptismi, quod est "sacramentum fidei", sine qua nulli umquam contigit iustificatio

    qua is female while sacramentum is neuter and  fides is female.

    Thus it's the faith here, without which ...


    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #62 on: August 13, 2019, 10:37:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's from papalencyclicals.net:
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm



    qua is female while sacramentum is neuter and  fides is female.

    Thus it's the faith here, without which ...

    So?  Faith is a necessary cause of justification.  This does not mean that the Sacrament is not.  In fact, Trent teaches that the Sacrament is necessary for justification also.  So what's your point?

    It sounds like you're trying to turn a necessary cause into a sufficient cause, and that's faulty logic.

    I cannot live without water.  From which you conclude that I can live on water alone.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #63 on: August 13, 2019, 10:40:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've always thought that those in Limbo of the Patriarchs were under the old law which did not require baptism. As far as if they were in a state of sanctifying grace (justified) I never thought about it. I do not believe they could be in the same state of grace as those that are baptized, because those that are baptized are born again by the blood of Christ. Remember that Limbo of the Patriarchs was not just Jєωs, it contained 5000 years of peoples of all races and beliefs, from all over the world.
    Sounds good to me. Also agrees with Pax re: they died under the old dispensation wherein they were justified without the sacrament. Which brings us back to the question if it is possible under the new law to attain justification before reception of the sacrament of baptism.

    Fr. Feeney just said he did not know, Trent says, assuming the translation is correct, that the sacrament of baptism, "which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified". Seems to say that it is faith that is necessary for justification. No?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #64 on: August 13, 2019, 10:49:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sounds good to me. Also agrees with Pax re: they died under the old dispensation wherein they were justified without the sacrament. Which brings us back to the question if it is possible under the new law to attain justification before reception of the sacrament of baptism.

    Fr. Feeney just said he did not know, Trent says, assuming the translation is correct, that the sacrament of baptism, "which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified". Seems to say that it is faith that is necessary for justification. No?
    I want to add that if that is the case, then Fr. Feeney would be correct in that there is really no way to know for certain if a person is justified before the sacrament. And we cannot ever know with certainty  unless they have both the faith (which we cannot know but assume they have) and the sacrament.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #65 on: August 13, 2019, 11:51:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So?  Faith is a necessary cause of justification.  This does not mean that the Sacrament is not.  In fact, Trent teaches that the Sacrament is necessary for justification also.  So what's your point?

    It sounds like you're trying to turn a necessary cause into a sufficient cause, and that's faulty logic.

    I cannot live without water.  From which you conclude that I can live on water alone.

    Calm down, please!

    Why fight strawmen? You ask questions, imagine possible or impossible answers of mine, just to be able to throw an accusation of "faulty logic" at me.

    I have answered a specific question of Last Tradhican. The addition "(faith)" on papalencyclicals.net seems to be a hint to the reader that the relative clause grammatically refers to the faith.

    Whatever conclusions someone may draw from that specific statement in question, the Decree on Justification unequivocally teaches that since the promulgation of the gospel nobody born in sin is justified without the sacrament of baptism, and that nobody born in sin is justified before the death of Our Lord.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #66 on: August 20, 2019, 12:59:27 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • What in blazes are you talking about?  Those of the Old Testament who went to the Limbo of the Just were justified by the Jєωιѕн Faith!  They were justified by the rite of circuмcision and by the sacrifices of the old law, which were still in effect until Pentacost.
    .You have no idea what you're talking about.  You can't use a Church council's explanation of the New Testament laws to understand the Old Law.
    .Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the prophets, etc, etc were "under the power of the devil"?  You're nuttier than squirrel turds.
    Hold on there. I know some theologians teach that - maybe even St. Thomas - but it contradicts Romans, Galatians, Hebrews (regarding the old sacrifices which didn't justify from sin), and the Magisterium of the Church. I'll find the quote from Denzinger, but I'm pretty sure that one of the popes quoted in there said circuмcision didn't justify. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #67 on: August 20, 2019, 01:14:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hold on there. I know some theologians teach that - maybe even St. Thomas - but it contradicts Romans, Galatians, Hebrews (regarding the old sacrifices which didn't justify from sin), and the Magisterium of the Church. I'll find the quote from Denzinger, but I'm pretty sure that one of the popes quoted in there said circuмcision didn't justify.

    Voilà:

    Quote from: Trent, cuм Hoc Tempore, 6th session

    CHAPTER I.
     On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

    The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jєωs by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #68 on: August 20, 2019, 01:18:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That looks very fishy.
    .
    You can verify the fidelity of the transcription by consulting the original (1848 ) translation of Waterworth's: https://archive.org/details/TheCanonsAndDecrees/page/n305
    .
    As you can see, "(faith)" is included in the original.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2232
    • Reputation: +829/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #69 on: August 20, 2019, 03:39:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Voilà:
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm

    Quote
    . . . not even the Jєωs by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom . . .

    Yes, I saw that. I was thinking of another quote which I have highlighted in my Denzinger, but I don't have it handy.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4120
    • Reputation: +1259/-259
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #70 on: August 23, 2019, 12:25:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is the English translation of Pope St. Pius X's Compendio della Dottrina Cristiana, which contains all three of his catechisms:
    • Prime nozioni di Catechismo per i fanciulli di tenera età
    • Catechismo breve. Prima parte del Compendio della Dottrina Cristiana per le Classi Inferiori
    • Catechismo maggiore
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre


    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #71 on: February 24, 2020, 11:11:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

    On the website of the Museo San Pio X in Salzano (Venezia) there are digital transcripts of three versions of what is called "Catechism of Pius X" including


    Scanning the text for "batt"esimo (baptism), "sang"ue (blood), and "desi"derio (desire) I could not find any reference to BoB or BoD.


    The other two later versions found on that site do talk about Battesimo di sangue, Battesimo di desiderio, desiderio almeno implicito etc.



    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #72 on: February 24, 2020, 11:56:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's well known that the American Baltimore catechism of the 1800s had BOD and BOB in there, and the US bishops included them, not rome.  It would not be surprising that the US Bishops inserted BOD and BOB into Pius X's catechism as well. 

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +453/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #73 on: February 24, 2020, 12:05:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's well known that the American Baltimore catechism of the 1800s had BOD and BOB in there, and the US bishops included them, not rome.  It would not be surprising that the US Bishops inserted BOD and BOB into Pius X's catechism as well.

    BoB and BoD also were inserted ex post in the early 1800s in Bavaria, home of Adam Weishaupt, in the Catechism of St. Petrus Canisius. Differing versions are available on archive.org.

    The italian wikipedia-page

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechismo_di_Pio_X

    has a different story though on the "Catechism of Pius X." It starts with Il Catechismo di Pio X è una sintesi di un catechismo unico del Congresso Catechistico nαzιonale svolto a Piacenza nel 1889 and has, as far as I could find so far, no real proof that St. Pius X approved what is sold as his Catechism. It is an odd wiki-page with more footnotes than text.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #74 on: February 24, 2020, 02:52:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On the website of the Museo San Pio X in Salzano (Venezia) there are digital transcripts of three versions of what is called "Catechism of Pius X" including


    Scanning the text for "batt"esimo (baptism), "sang"ue (blood), and "desi"derio (desire) I could not find any reference to BoB or BoD.


    The other two later versions found on that site do talk about Battesimo di sangue, Battesimo di desiderio, desiderio almeno implicito etc.

    This one in the link here is from a manuscript written in St. Pius X's own hand (when he was still a priest) ... and makes no mention of BoD or BoB.  Do you have direct links to the other two (I could not find them)?