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Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 14608 times)

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Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2019, 11:51:53 AM »
So?  Faith is a necessary cause of justification.  This does not mean that the Sacrament is not.  In fact, Trent teaches that the Sacrament is necessary for justification also.  So what's your point?

It sounds like you're trying to turn a necessary cause into a sufficient cause, and that's faulty logic.

I cannot live without water.  From which you conclude that I can live on water alone.

Calm down, please!

Why fight strawmen? You ask questions, imagine possible or impossible answers of mine, just to be able to throw an accusation of "faulty logic" at me.

I have answered a specific question of Last Tradhican. The addition "(faith)" on papalencyclicals.net seems to be a hint to the reader that the relative clause grammatically refers to the faith.

Whatever conclusions someone may draw from that specific statement in question, the Decree on Justification unequivocally teaches that since the promulgation of the gospel nobody born in sin is justified without the sacrament of baptism, and that nobody born in sin is justified before the death of Our Lord.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2019, 12:59:27 PM »
What in blazes are you talking about?  Those of the Old Testament who went to the Limbo of the Just were justified by the Jєωιѕн Faith!  They were justified by the rite of circuмcision and by the sacrifices of the old law, which were still in effect until Pentacost.
.You have no idea what you're talking about.  You can't use a Church council's explanation of the New Testament laws to understand the Old Law.
.Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the prophets, etc, etc were "under the power of the devil"?  You're nuttier than squirrel turds.
Hold on there. I know some theologians teach that - maybe even St. Thomas - but it contradicts Romans, Galatians, Hebrews (regarding the old sacrifices which didn't justify from sin), and the Magisterium of the Church. I'll find the quote from Denzinger, but I'm pretty sure that one of the popes quoted in there said circuмcision didn't justify. 


Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2019, 01:14:29 PM »
Hold on there. I know some theologians teach that - maybe even St. Thomas - but it contradicts Romans, Galatians, Hebrews (regarding the old sacrifices which didn't justify from sin), and the Magisterium of the Church. I'll find the quote from Denzinger, but I'm pretty sure that one of the popes quoted in there said circuмcision didn't justify.

Voilà:

Quote from: Trent, cuм Hoc Tempore, 6th session

CHAPTER I.
 On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2019, 01:18:05 PM »
That looks very fishy.
.
You can verify the fidelity of the transcription by consulting the original (1848 ) translation of Waterworth's: https://archive.org/details/TheCanonsAndDecrees/page/n305
.
As you can see, "(faith)" is included in the original.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2019, 03:39:36 PM »
Voilà:
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm

Quote
. . . not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom . . .

Yes, I saw that. I was thinking of another quote which I have highlighted in my Denzinger, but I don't have it handy.