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Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 5302 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2019, 09:13:08 AM »
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    Now Trent speaks of the "instrumental cause" of justification; "the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified..."
    The sacrament of faith is another name for the sacrament of baptism. Who added that "(faith)" ?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #46 on: August 13, 2019, 09:15:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 13, 2019, 08:04:58 AM
    Yes, it's hard to believe that St. Joseph was not in a state of justification.  And, in fact, I find it difficult to believe that Our Lord did not teach him about the Holy Trinity and that therefore he had explicit faith in those as well ... but no Baptism, so no heaven.
    Yes, exactly. And also St. John the Baptist, Noah, Isaias, Moses, Judith, Abraham and on and on and on. Their justification at death was the difference between them and everyone else that perished during the flood or died during God's wrath at Sodom and Gomorrah and so on and etc.. If they were able to attain justification in Limbo, then so did every single person who died in the OT - including Judas Iscariot.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #47 on: August 13, 2019, 09:17:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 09:13:08 AM
    The sacrament of faith is another name for the sacrament of baptism. Who added that "(faith)" ?
    It's what is written in the link: https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #48 on: August 13, 2019, 09:19:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 13, 2019, 07:30:49 AM
    Fr. Feeney who opined that all the souls in Limbo were baptized after Christ descended into hell, before He Ascended into heaven. Not sure where I read it but he said it was only his opinion. Which seems to align more with Struthio's idea.
    It was very easy to have everyone in Limbo of the Patriarchs baptized, and infinitely more likely than that anyone today can be justified without faith in anything Catholic, which is what 99% of false BODers believe.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #49 on: August 13, 2019, 09:20:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 13, 2019, 09:04:44 AM
    Quote from: Struthio on August 13, 2019, 08:07:22 AM
    Nobody says "this is opposed to the opinion of Fr Suarez". All say "this is opposed to the opinion of Suarez".


    FYI, you're nobody. Other priests or theologians are not "all". If your mother never taught you what proper respect is for addressing priests, I have no illusions that I'm able to.

    Yes, in this sense I am nobody, just like e.g. St Robert Bellarmine, who calls Fr Suarez simply Suarez when discussing his theological opinions.

    My parents taught me to copy commonly used and accepted conventions.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #50 on: August 13, 2019, 09:20:32 AM »
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #51 on: August 13, 2019, 09:46:32 AM »
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    Yes, it's hard to believe that St. Joseph was not in a state of justification.  And, in fact, I find it difficult to believe that Our Lord did not teach him about the Holy Trinity and that therefore he had explicit faith in those as well ... but no Baptism, so no heaven.
    I'm making a distinction here but the reason that the OT saints couldn't get to heaven was because heaven was closed due to the need for a redeemer.  The need for Christ to die for our sins is the main reason they had to go to the "limbo of the just" and wait.  The idea of being baptized in limbo is a speculation.  The OT saints were circuмcised, so that was their version of baptism.  I'd more likely believe that they needed to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist before joining heaven (which has a connection to understanding the Trinity and it would also be a spiritual way for them to finally have the long-awaited for Redeemer, which was the basis for the entire OT Faith).  I don't believe that baptism would be needed in Limbo (though I get the argument), because it minimizes the whole OT law.  Why stop at baptism?  Was there Mass offered in Limbo?  Did they say the rosary?  ...I think you get my point. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #52 on: August 13, 2019, 09:50:45 AM »
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    • Struthio, if you don't believe that justification was possible in the OT, then you don't believe that the OT sacrifices could forgive sins.  But they could and did.  They were a prefigurement of the Mass and Christ's sacrifice.  It was a prefigurement of confession, when the Jєωs had to offer sacrifices for specific sins.  Forgiveness of sins and the state of grace were certainly possible in the OT.  Trent's teachings applicable to the New Law, to the Church - not to the Old Law.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #53 on: August 13, 2019, 09:54:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 09:20:32 AM
    That looks very fishy.
    I've only ever seen it that way. And imo, it makes sense since the faith is necessary for worthy reception of the sacrament. The two go hand in hand.

    Which explains why those baptized in prot churches or outside the Church and without the proper intention (because they do not have the faith) are sinful.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #54 on: August 13, 2019, 09:57:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 13, 2019, 09:20:27 AM
    Yes, in this sense I am nobody, just like e.g. St Robert Bellarmine, who calls Fr Suarez simply Suarez when discussing his theological opinions.

    My parents taught me to copy commonly used and accepted conventions.
    Then you should have learned to use "Father" in front of the names of priests because that is commonly used and accepted, and respectful.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #55 on: August 13, 2019, 10:11:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 13, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
    I've only ever seen it that way. And imo, it makes sense since the faith is necessary for worthy reception of the sacrament. The two go hand in hand.

    Which explains why those baptized in prot churches or outside the Church and without the proper intention (because they do not have the faith) are sinful.
    The (faith) stands out like a sore thumb. I just looked up Denzinger in Latin from 1946, edited by Karl Rahner and it does not have the (faith), and that is Karl Rahner! It looks like it was added by an English speaker or Rahner did not bother to change the Latin.

    You are interpreting (faith) as a Catholic who follows dogma, but the modernists will use it to teach what they taught at VatII, that any unbaptized can have has faith. Looks like a plant.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #56 on: August 13, 2019, 10:14:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
    It was very easy to have everyone in Limbo of the Patriarchs baptized, and infinitely more likely than that anyone today can be justified without faith in anything Catholic, which is what 99% of false BODers believe.
    So if no one is justified without the sacrament, is that what you think happened? That the OT were justified in Limbo?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #57 on: August 13, 2019, 10:18:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 10:11:49 AM
    The (faith) stands out like a sore thumb. I just looked up Denzinger in Latin from 1946, edited by Karl Rahner and it does not have the (faith), and that is Karl Rahner! It looks like it was added by an English speaker or Rahner did not bother to change the Latin.

    You are interpreting (faith) as a Catholic who follows dogma, but the modernists will use it to teach what they taught at VatII, that any unbaptized can have has faith. Looks like a plant.
    Well faith had meaning during Trent, which is why it makes some type of sense to me. As such, it could make sense for that same reason that it was edited it out of Denzinger? - which as previously posted a long time ago here on CI, malicious editing is a common occurrence with Denzinger.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #58 on: August 13, 2019, 10:22:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 13, 2019, 10:14:08 AM
    So if no one is justified without the sacrament, is that what you think happened? That the OT were justified in Limbo?
    I've always thought that those in Limbo of the Patriarchs were under the old law which did not require baptism. As far as if they were in a state of sanctifying grace (justified) I never thought about it. I do not believe they could be in the same state of grace as those that are baptized, because those that are baptized are born again by the blood of Christ. Remember that Limbo of the Patriarchs was not just Jєωs, it contained 5000 years of peoples of all races and beliefs, from all over the world.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #59 on: August 13, 2019, 10:24:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on August 10, 2019, 04:32:17 PM
    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
     This reply is from Neil Obstat about 5 years ago:

    How can the absence of something be supplied by something else?

    This quote from the catechism says that martyrdom can supply the absence of baptism.  

    Why would anyone want to be supplied the absence of baptism?

    If you want to cook breakfast and don't have any eggs, would a shopping trip SUPPLY your absence of eggs?  Or would a shopping trip REMEDY your absence of eggs?

    A platoon commander running out of ammunition, when asking for supplies, would he say that he is requisitioning to be supplied an absence of bullets?

    The choice of words is highly ambiguous, at least.  This goes to show that catechisms are not a source of doctrinal definition.  They are only a tool for teaching, and can therefore contain errors that the censors overlooked. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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