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Offline Last Tradhican

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Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« on: August 10, 2019, 03:55:16 PM »
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  • Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

     

    Unfortunately, what’s being passed-off as the “Catechism of Pope Pius X” is a compendium of other sources along with the Q&A, ostensibly from the Catechism of Pope Pius X. There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII - how much credibility then can we place in the more outrageous and perfectly contradictory Q&A which states that there is salvation outside the Church?  

     

    The original Catechism was never published in English and was for local use within certain provinces of Italy. The Compendiums we have today went through private translations from Italian to French to English and of course were edited. I refuse to believe that Pope St. Pius X approved the more egregious errors within these “Catechisms” so let’s not be so quick to assume that that these Compendiums are faithful to the original or that Pius X “approved” them.

     

    Just in the interests of accuracy - I'm not trying to stir the pot! - I checked an on-line Italian version of this catechism. What English speaking believers in BOD quote is from the Catechismus Minor, which has no covering letter from Pope St Pius X in the on-line version.

     

     

    "132. Chi è fuori della Chiesa si salva?

    Chi è fuori della Chiesa per propria colpa e muore senza dolore perfetto, non si salva; ma chi ci si trovi senza propria colpa e viva bene, può salvarsi con l'amor di carità, che unisce a Dio, e, in spirito, anche alla Chiesa, cioè all'anima di lei."

     

    The English translation seems pretty close to this.

     

    The Catechismus Maior does have the following letter from Pope St Pius X:

     

    "COMPENDIO DELLA DOTTRINA CRISTIANA PRESCRITTO DA SUA SANTITÀ PAPA PIO X ALLE DIOCESI DELLA PROVINCIA DI ROMA, ROMA, TIPOGRAFIA VATICANA, 1905

    AL SIGNOR CARDINALE PIETRO RESPIGHI NOSTRO VICARIO GENERALE

    Signor Cardinale,

    La necessità di provvedere per quanto è possibile alla religiosa istituzione della tenera gioventù Ci ha consigliato la stampa di un Catechismo, che esponga in modo chiaro i rudimenti della santa fede, e quelle divine verità, alle quali deve informarsi la vita d'ogni cristiano. Pertanto fatti esaminare i molti libri di testo già in uso nelle Diocesi d' Italia, Ci parve opportuno di adottare con lievi ritocchi il testo da vari anni approvato dai Vescovi del Piemonte, della Liguria, della Lombardia, della Emilia e della Toscana. L'uso di questo testo sarà obbligatorio per l'insegnamento pubblico e privato nella Diocesi di Roma e in tutte le altre della Provincia Romana; e confidiamo che anche le altre Diocesi vorranno adottarlo per arrivare cosi a quel testo unico, almeno per tutta l'Italia, che è nell'universale desiderio.

    Con questa dolce speranza impartiamo di tutto cuore a Lei, Signor Cardinale, l'Apostolica Benedizione.

    Dal Vaticano, li 14 Giugno 1905.

    PIUS PP. X"

     

     

    The answer it gives is slightly different, though not, I think, materially so:

     

     

    "169 D. Può alcuno salvarsi fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana?

           R. No, fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana nessuno può salvarsi, come niuno poté salvarsi dal diluvio fuori dell'Arca di Noè, che era figura di questa Chiesa.

    170 D. Come dunque si sono salvati gli antichi Patriarchi, i Profeti e tutti gli altri giusti dell'antico Testamento?

           R. Tutti i giusti dell'antico Testamento si sono salvati in virtù della fede che avevano in Cristo venturo, per mezzo della quale essi già appartenevano spiritualmente a questa Chiesa.

    171 D. Ma chi si trovasse, senza sua colpa, fuori della Chiesa, potrebbe salvarsi?

           R. Chi, trovandosi senza sua colpa, ossia in buona fede, fuori della Chiesa, avesse ricevuto il Battesimo, o ne avesse il desiderio almeno implicito; cercasse inoltre sinceramente la verità e compisse la volontà di Dio come meglio può; benché separato dal corpo della Chiesa, sarebbe unito all'anima di lei e quindi in via di salute."

     

    I am by no means expert at Italian, but a rough translation would be:

     

    "Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

     

    There is no Latin version, for it was composed in Italian.

     

    That’s quite interesting.  There is no Latin version because this was a local catechism. Now, if they have received baptism then they have at least a belief in Christ and the essential Mysteries. According to this version, if they are not baptized, their Faith in Christ and the essential Mysteries may imply an “implicit desire” for baptism.  But notice too that this passage does not state they will be saved “where they are”; but only that they are “in the path of salvation”.  Will God leave them on the path of salvation without providing the means to arrive there? Of course, here we go again with what is “implied” but if God granted them the grace of Faith and they co-operate with such grace, would He leave them in this state without also granting them the grace of charity and conversion? If it is God’s will are they not also given the grace to act on His will?

     

    To answer in the negative is to suggest that it is not God who moves the will or that His will can be frustrated by events out of His “control”. Man must assent and co-operate with grace through free will; but it is a will which is assisted by God to assent in the first place. 

     

    Item last, the belonging to the “soul of the Church but not the Body” theory has been refuted (or “placed into context”) by magisterial teaching which solemnly declares that the unity of the Soul and the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is such that the Soul cannot be separated from the Body (there is neither sanctification nor the remission of sins outside the Body). The Holy Ghost moves where He wills and operates on the souls of the elect through actual and pre-disposing graces, but the idea that His uncreated nature substantially abides within a soul resulting in a state of created sanctifying grace without incorporation into the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is foreign to Trent and magisterial teaching. I am fully aware of the “mental incorporation” theory but once again, it is a theory.  What does the infallible Church teach?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 03:57:54 PM »
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  • Translation from Original Italian Version:

    "Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

    The translation from Italian to French to English Compendium:

    The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,”
    Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
    A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”


    1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.

    2) It is talking about a person who is baptized, and mixing in a person who has implicit desire to be baptized. This implicit desire to be baptized is the theory of St. Thomas, it is a person who believes in (at a minimum)the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. It is talking about a heretic or schismatic (they are baptized), and about a person who whishes to be a Catgholic (implicit baptism of desire). It is not talking about Implicit faith!

    3) In the case of the person who is baptized, he can belong to the metaphorical soul of the Church of Abbot Marmion, which are the baptized who are in a state of grace. In the case of the implicit desire to be baptized, they can also belong to the same soul of the Church if they are justified by God, pre-sanctified before receiving the waters of baptism.

    Bottom line is that this quote is not talking about a dead person. and it can be interpreted inline with EENS as it is written.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 04:32:17 PM »
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  • 1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.


    The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 04:38:47 PM »
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  • The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

    what exactly does implicit baptism of desire mean? 

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 04:42:28 PM »
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  • The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

    As stated in the OP, The Catechism of Pius X was never written in English, it was in ltalian, so one can't just say "The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism" and post something in English. Please tell us what year it was published and by whom? From the OP "There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII -
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 05:23:08 PM »
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  • As stated in the OP, The Catechism of Pius X was never written in English, it was in ltalian, so one can't just say "The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism" and post something in English. Please tell us what year it was published and by whom? From the OP "There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII -

    It is a slightly adapted translation taken from Msgr. Hagan's Compendium of Catechetical Instruction (1910)

    https://archive.org/stream/CatechismOfSaintPopePiuxXTheSt.PiusX/Catechism+of+Saint+Pope+Piux+X%2C+The+-+St.+Pius+X_djvu.txt

    Here's the description of the translation provided in the Foreword:
    "After the Second Vatican Council, a number of new catechisms appeared which did not present Catholic 
    Doctrine as it should be presented, and these new publications even included some very grave errors.
    Coupled with the new methods, whereby children are not required to memorize, two generations of
    children have grown up not knowing the Catholic Faith. For many years Rome did nothing. Now there has
    been published the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has been written for Bishops, who are
    required to adapt it to the needs of the faithful. One may fear that some Bishops will put off this task for a
    very long time, others will water-down the Doctrine even further, yet others will give only a partial
    presentation of the Doctrine, leaving important points untold.

    "Thus the need is still great for a Catechism to be put in the hands of the student in which he may find clear
    and complete answers to his questions. What better could be given him than the Catechism of St. Pius X,
    the holy Pope of the modern era?

    "To my knowledge, the Catechism of St. Pius X has never been published in English in its original text.
    There is one Catechism of Christian Doctrine, published by the Rev. Msgr. Eugene Kevane in Virginia,
    USA in 1974, but in fact, it contains a much later text which lacks much of the original text: it is the
    translation of the Catechismo della Dottrina Cristiana, the standard Italian Catechism, as it was in 1953.
    That Italian Catechism is in turn, a summary and reduction of the original Catechism of St. Pius X. The
    American edition in 1974 has further been "adapted according to the Second Vatican Council", thus losing
    much of the value of the original text (e.g. expressions like "Soldiers of Christ" are suppressed from the
    teaching on the effects of Confirmation). The only book where I was able to find the authentic text is the
    excellent Compendium of Catechetical Instruction by the Right Reverend Monsignor John Hagan, first
    published in Dublin in 1910, and containing for each chapter of the Catechism the relevant part from the
    Catechism of the Council of Trent , the questions and answers of the Catechism of Saint Pius X and Father
    Raineri's Catechetical Instructions, which were very popular in the nineteenth century.

    "We present here Msgr. Hagan's text with very slight modifications of style only. The current discipline of
    the Church on matters such as fasting has been included in smaller print to bring the text up-to-date without
    altering the original answers."



    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #6 on: August 10, 2019, 05:47:04 PM »
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  • what exactly does implicit baptism of desire mean?

    A theoretical example of justification by implicit baptism of desire would be the case in which a person 1) makes a supernatural act of faith, 2) combined with a perfect act of charity, and 3) the disposition of soul whereby the person wishes to conform his will to the Will of God.  Although the explicit desire for baptism is lacking, the implicit desire is contained within #3.  

    Of course, we are dealing here with theoretical possibilities that are likely few and far between, but this is how theologians have always explained justification by implicit baptism of desire.  It is also important to note that many people mistakenly believe that justification by implicit baptism of desire only requires #3.  That is not the case.  Supernatural faith and perfect charity are absolutely necessary.  #3 simply supplies for an explicit desire for baptism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #7 on: August 10, 2019, 06:01:43 PM »
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  • A theoretical example of justification by implicit baptism of desire would be the case in which a person 1) makes a supernatural act of faith, 2) combined with a perfect act of charity, and 3) the disposition of soul whereby the person wishes to conform his will to the Will of God.  Although the explicit desire for baptism is lacking, the implicit desire is contained within #3.  

    Of course, we are dealing here with theoretical possibilities that are likely few and far between, but this is how theologians have always explained justification by implicit baptism of desire.  It is also important to note that many people mistakenly believe that justification by implicit baptism of desire only requires #3.  That is not the case.  Supernatural faith and perfect charity are absolutely necessary.  #3 simply supplies for an explicit desire for baptism.

    ...from whence it follows that the missionary is still essential, since a completely implicit act of supernatural faith is impossible (i.e., without knowledge and assent to some article of faith, said act would be merely natural, not supernatural), and would equate to Rahner's "anonymous Christianity," which in turn implies JPII's universal salvationism.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #8 on: August 10, 2019, 06:38:08 PM »
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  • ...from whence it follows that the missionary is still essential, since a completely implicit act of supernatural faith is impossible (i.e., without knowledge and assent to some article of faith, said act would be merely natural, not supernatural), and would equate to Rahner's "anonymous Christianity," which in turn implies JPII's universal salvationism.
    How does this help the invincibly ignorant, like your example of the Chinaman at the time of Christ, if you first need a missionary to teach you about the faith?

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 06:51:28 PM »
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  • ...from whence it follows that the missionary is still essential, since a completely implicit act of supernatural faith is impossible (i.e., without knowledge and assent to some article of faith, said act would be merely natural, not supernatural), and would equate to Rahner's "anonymous Christianity," which in turn implies JPII's universal salvationism.

    Indeed, a supernatural act of faith does require belief in an object (article of faith ) that is not known to be true by the natural light of reason. Whether this proposition enters the mind by the preaching of a missionary, by reading a book, or via an actual grace is a another matter.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 06:58:55 PM »
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  • Pope St Pius X's "Oath Against Modernism" of 1910
    Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source.
    .
    A missionary, a book or a preacher - these would be good examples of external sources.  God uses human means for conversions, since we are human creatures.  Therefore the supernatural grace of Faith, cannot come from an internal grace, but has a cause which is external.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #11 on: August 11, 2019, 12:13:06 AM »
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  • The thought of a "doctored" St. Pius X catechism has crossed my mind too.

    Because Bp. Fellay uses the Catechism of St. Pope Pius X as his source to defend the SSPX's endorsement of four baptisms.

    The SSPX preaches three Baptisms and goes the extra mile to endorse the heresy of implicit Baptism, otherwise known as Universal Salvation or Karl "Rhanerism".



    On page 74 of +ABL's book "Open Letter to Confused Catholics"., it reads: 

    "The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows amongst Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this they become part of the Church".







    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #12 on: August 11, 2019, 07:26:20 AM »
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  • Yes, the "in the path of salvation" language is crucial and completely missed/ignored by the BoDers.  It's consistent with the teaching of Pius IX on the matter, that they are on a trajectory towards salvation and will, if they stay on that path, be given the necessary grace and enlightenment in order to be saved.  "In/on the path" means that they are on the way, but not there yet, that they have not arrived at their destination.  So this language was used deliberately.

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #13 on: August 11, 2019, 12:30:54 PM »
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  • Yes, the "in the path of salvation" language is crucial and completely missed/ignored by the BoDers.  It's consistent with the teaching of Pius IX on the matter, that they are on a trajectory towards salvation and will, if they stay on that path, be given the necessary grace and enlightenment in order to be saved.  "In/on the path" means that they are on the way, but not there yet, that they have not arrived at their destination.  So this language was used deliberately.

    St. Augustine and other great theologians applied St. John 10:16 to this very issue, emphasizing that Our Lord must bring the non-Catholics into the Church because they cannot be saved as they are.

    Quote
    And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

    Notice how Our Lord speaks, indicating that it is He Himself who must bring these non-Catholics into the Church. The reason why the Church doesn't allow anyone to baptize himself with water is to teach us that we cannot merit the grace of joining the Church. We are to recognize that we are dependent on God to provide a minister for us. Even in cases of emergency, a person is not allowed to baptize himself; the Church would rather have a Jew or a Muslim be the one who baptizes, provided he have the right intention, than permit a man to baptize himself.

    It is a DOGMA of the faith that no man can merit the initial grace of justification. The apostles of "implicit baptism of desire" do not understand any of this. They write as if it is a matter of sheer effort for a non-Catholic to join the Church. It is very difficult, they say, because observing the natural law is hard for fallen man, but some can do it, and if they do observe it, then they will somehow baptize themselves implicitly, and become invisible members of the Church. The very reason God does not allow any man to baptize himself with water is to prevent this Pelagian nonsense.

    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #14 on: August 11, 2019, 02:34:03 PM »
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  • On page 74 of +ABL's book "Open Letter to Confused Catholics"., it reads:

    "The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows amongst Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this they become part of the Church".

    Actually, Abp. L does not even know the subject which he is attempting to teach in that quote. What he describes there is only implicit baptism of desire for a non-baptized Protestant (see*), while for the "Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity" what he is talking about is the theory of  Implicit Faith, the novel belief that Muslim, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, (and he even goes on the say the whole of humanity, which I had never heard him say before, meaning, everybody, no matter whether they practice a religion or not!!!)   can be saved EVEN if they do not desire to be baptized, nor desire to be Catholic, nor believe in Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity. This is really wacked out!

    When priests say things like that, it reminds me of the saying, "In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king", in other words, because Abp. L is surrounded by laity that know nothing, he can say anything and no one ever challenges him. He is a one eyed man living among the blind, therefore, he is like a a prophet, a guru, a king, when he knows nothing.

    * Most Protestants are validly baptized so Abp. L is even wrong there, since a baptized Protestant can't be saved by baptism of desire, but he does not care, he says very clearly that "the whole of humanity".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

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