Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 14597 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« on: August 10, 2019, 03:55:16 PM »

Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

 

Unfortunately, what’s being passed-off as the “Catechism of Pope Pius X” is a compendium of other sources along with the Q&A, ostensibly from the Catechism of Pope Pius X. There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII - how much credibility then can we place in the more outrageous and perfectly contradictory Q&A which states that there is salvation outside the Church?  

 

The original Catechism was never published in English and was for local use within certain provinces of Italy. The Compendiums we have today went through private translations from Italian to French to English and of course were edited. I refuse to believe that Pope St. Pius X approved the more egregious errors within these “Catechisms” so let’s not be so quick to assume that that these Compendiums are faithful to the original or that Pius X “approved” them.

 

Just in the interests of accuracy - I'm not trying to stir the pot! - I checked an on-line Italian version of this catechism. What English speaking believers in BOD quote is from the Catechismus Minor, which has no covering letter from Pope St Pius X in the on-line version.

 

 

"132. Chi è fuori della Chiesa si salva?

Chi è fuori della Chiesa per propria colpa e muore senza dolore perfetto, non si salva; ma chi ci si trovi senza propria colpa e viva bene, può salvarsi con l'amor di carità, che unisce a Dio, e, in spirito, anche alla Chiesa, cioè all'anima di lei."

 

The English translation seems pretty close to this.

 

The Catechismus Maior does have the following letter from Pope St Pius X:

 

"COMPENDIO DELLA DOTTRINA CRISTIANA PRESCRITTO DA SUA SANTITÀ PAPA PIO X ALLE DIOCESI DELLA PROVINCIA DI ROMA, ROMA, TIPOGRAFIA VATICANA, 1905

AL SIGNOR CARDINALE PIETRO RESPIGHI NOSTRO VICARIO GENERALE

Signor Cardinale,

La necessità di provvedere per quanto è possibile alla religiosa istituzione della tenera gioventù Ci ha consigliato la stampa di un Catechismo, che esponga in modo chiaro i rudimenti della santa fede, e quelle divine verità, alle quali deve informarsi la vita d'ogni cristiano. Pertanto fatti esaminare i molti libri di testo già in uso nelle Diocesi d' Italia, Ci parve opportuno di adottare con lievi ritocchi il testo da vari anni approvato dai Vescovi del Piemonte, della Liguria, della Lombardia, della Emilia e della Toscana. L'uso di questo testo sarà obbligatorio per l'insegnamento pubblico e privato nella Diocesi di Roma e in tutte le altre della Provincia Romana; e confidiamo che anche le altre Diocesi vorranno adottarlo per arrivare cosi a quel testo unico, almeno per tutta l'Italia, che è nell'universale desiderio.

Con questa dolce speranza impartiamo di tutto cuore a Lei, Signor Cardinale, l'Apostolica Benedizione.

Dal Vaticano, li 14 Giugno 1905.

PIUS PP. X"

 

 

The answer it gives is slightly different, though not, I think, materially so:

 

 

"169 D. Può alcuno salvarsi fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana?

       R. No, fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana nessuno può salvarsi, come niuno poté salvarsi dal diluvio fuori dell'Arca di Noè, che era figura di questa Chiesa.

170 D. Come dunque si sono salvati gli antichi Patriarchi, i Profeti e tutti gli altri giusti dell'antico Testamento?

       R. Tutti i giusti dell'antico Testamento si sono salvati in virtù della fede che avevano in Cristo venturo, per mezzo della quale essi già appartenevano spiritualmente a questa Chiesa.

171 D. Ma chi si trovasse, senza sua colpa, fuori della Chiesa, potrebbe salvarsi?

       R. Chi, trovandosi senza sua colpa, ossia in buona fede, fuori della Chiesa, avesse ricevuto il Battesimo, o ne avesse il desiderio almeno implicito; cercasse inoltre sinceramente la verità e compisse la volontà di Dio come meglio può; benché separato dal corpo della Chiesa, sarebbe unito all'anima di lei e quindi in via di salute."

 

I am by no means expert at Italian, but a rough translation would be:

 

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

 

There is no Latin version, for it was composed in Italian.

 

That’s quite interesting.  There is no Latin version because this was a local catechism. Now, if they have received baptism then they have at least a belief in Christ and the essential Mysteries. According to this version, if they are not baptized, their Faith in Christ and the essential Mysteries may imply an “implicit desire” for baptism.  But notice too that this passage does not state they will be saved “where they are”; but only that they are “in the path of salvation”.  Will God leave them on the path of salvation without providing the means to arrive there? Of course, here we go again with what is “implied” but if God granted them the grace of Faith and they co-operate with such grace, would He leave them in this state without also granting them the grace of charity and conversion? If it is God’s will are they not also given the grace to act on His will?

 

To answer in the negative is to suggest that it is not God who moves the will or that His will can be frustrated by events out of His “control”. Man must assent and co-operate with grace through free will; but it is a will which is assisted by God to assent in the first place. 

 

Item last, the belonging to the “soul of the Church but not the Body” theory has been refuted (or “placed into context”) by magisterial teaching which solemnly declares that the unity of the Soul and the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is such that the Soul cannot be separated from the Body (there is neither sanctification nor the remission of sins outside the Body). The Holy Ghost moves where He wills and operates on the souls of the elect through actual and pre-disposing graces, but the idea that His uncreated nature substantially abides within a soul resulting in a state of created sanctifying grace without incorporation into the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is foreign to Trent and magisterial teaching. I am fully aware of the “mental incorporation” theory but once again, it is a theory.  What does the infallible Church teach?

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 03:57:54 PM »
Translation from Original Italian Version:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

The translation from Italian to French to English Compendium:

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,”
Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”


1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.

2) It is talking about a person who is baptized, and mixing in a person who has implicit desire to be baptized. This implicit desire to be baptized is the theory of St. Thomas, it is a person who believes in (at a minimum)the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. It is talking about a heretic or schismatic (they are baptized), and about a person who whishes to be a Catgholic (implicit baptism of desire). It is not talking about Implicit faith!

3) In the case of the person who is baptized, he can belong to the metaphorical soul of the Church of Abbot Marmion, which are the baptized who are in a state of grace. In the case of the implicit desire to be baptized, they can also belong to the same soul of the Church if they are justified by God, pre-sanctified before receiving the waters of baptism.

Bottom line is that this quote is not talking about a dead person. and it can be interpreted inline with EENS as it is written.


Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 04:32:17 PM »

1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.


The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 04:38:47 PM »
The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

what exactly does implicit baptism of desire mean? 

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 04:42:28 PM »
The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism, not the section on the Creed.  Here's what it teaches:


16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

As stated in the OP, The Catechism of Pius X was never written in English, it was in ltalian, so one can't just say "The Catechism of Pius X addresses baptism of desire in the section on baptism" and post something in English. Please tell us what year it was published and by whom? From the OP "There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII -