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Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?  (Read 5294 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2020, 03:09:28 PM »
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  • @Ladislaus

    See the link in the first line of my post you quote. It leads to a page full of links. The second heading there is

    Docuмenti scritti da Pio X [sic]

    The first three links under that heading are links to catechisms.

    Or just search for "catechismo" on that page.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #76 on: February 24, 2020, 03:26:23 PM »
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  • @Ladislaus

    See the link in the first line of my post you quote. It leads to a page full of links. The second heading there is

    Docuмenti scritti da Pio X [sic]

    The first three links under that heading are links to catechisms.

    Or just search for "catechismo" on that page.

    OK, thank you.  I was looking earlier in the thread too.  I don't believe that Father Feeney's position on justification is necessarily an error.  Trent just says that the Sacrament of Baptism is the instrumental cause of justification.  This does not preclude this instrumental causality happening via the votum to receive it.  That's precisely what keeps BoD from being outright heretical.  Clearly it's dogma that the Sacrament is absolutely necessary for salvation.  But is it necessary to be received in re or can it still operate instrumentally through the votum to receive it.  Trent teaches that the Sacrament of Confession is also necessary to restore the fallen to a state of justification, but Trent teaches that this Sacrament can work its effect through the votum to receive it.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #77 on: February 21, 2021, 03:29:19 PM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/will-the-real-catechism-of-pius-x-please-stand-up/msg689380/#msg689380



    Quote
    On the website of the Museo San Pio X in Salzano (Venezia) there are digital transcripts of three versions of what is called "Catechism of Pius X" including


    Scanning the text for "batt"esimo (baptism), "sang"ue (blood), and "desi"derio (desire) I could not find any reference to BoB or BoD.


    The other two later versions found on that site do talk about Battesimo di sangue, Battesimo di desiderio, desiderio almeno implicito etc.



    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.museosanpiox.it/sanpiox/catechismo.html



    Quote
    The catechism of Don Giuseppe Sarto, Archpriest of Salzano

    The first news of the existence in the Episcopal Archives of Treviso of a "manuscript catechism of Don Giuseppe Sarto" was given in 1954 by Mons. Francesco Tonolo in Catechesi (As a parish priest Pius X taught the Catechism, Don Giuseppe Sarto, Catechesi, XXIII (1954), pp. 367-376). After the announcement made by Tonolo, we do not know that any study has been published on this docuмent. A few hints, some reflections in degree theses [eg: A. BALOCCO, Theological-pastoral trends and attitudes in today's diocesan catechisms of national diffusion, Milan 1958 (Thesis at the Gregorian University); S. DALLE FRATTE, The work of Canon Giuseppe Sarto,Treviso 1967 (Thesis at the University of S. Tommaso in Rome); M. BARTOLUCCI, The pastoral perspectives of the catechetical ministry of St. Pius X, academic year 1971-1972 at the Lateran University]. Nor is it mentioned in scientific works on the history of the catechism of St. Pius X. Don Luciano Nordera, of the Salesian Theological Studio in Saval, Verona, is preparing a wide-ranging scientific study on the genesis of the Catechism of St. Pius X ( 1912). The publication of the full text of the "Salzano notebooks" will bring, we are sure, a contribution for the study of the various phases of the thought and work of Pope Sarto in the plan of catechesis.

    As regards the date of composition of this "catechism", we know nothing that can establish it with certainty. In the Episcopal Archive of Treviso we read a docuмent that dates back to the first year in which the Sarto was parish priest of Salzano: the decree of Bishop Zinelli on the pastoral visit to that parish on 20 December 1867. It reads: «With true satisfaction of we have made sure that children are very well instructed in Christian doctrine ”. In 1872, Bishop Zinelli, in his Pastoral Letter of Lent, demonstrated "the need to give a more regular order to the teaching of Christian Doctrine" and, in June of the same year, invites the parish priests to give new impetus to the "Confraternity of Doctrine Christian ";he re-elaborates the Regulations and arranges a new edition of the diocesan Catechism, which was actually published the following year.

    Was it on this occasion that the parish priest of Salzano compiled his "catechism"? Or does the drafting date back to the early days of his parish ministry, at a time when the bishop already noted "with real satisfaction" that his children were "very well educated in Christian doctrine"?

    The docuмent consists of two notebooks of 16 x 22 format. Each page has a layout of 23 lines. On both covers we read: «Don Giuseppe Sarto Archpriest of Salzano». The Questions and Answers are written on the right side of each sheet; the left side is left free for didactic notes or for some questions added later. The Questions are not numbered or interrupted by titles or, in any case, by any division. We have replaced the letters D. and R. (Question and Answer) with the number of the progressive numbering. The two notebooks are each made up of 32 sheets. The first is written in full; the second up to sheet 18 recto.

    As already mentioned, the manuscript bears 252 variations, all by the hand of the Sarto.


    Quote
    THE TRUE CHURCH - "One, because the truth is only one" - "the Bishop of Rome .. . center of unity " .

    263 - How Many Real Churches Are There?

    [f. 43] The true Church is one, and out of this one cannot hope for Health

    264 - How, those who are outside the Church are not saved?

    No sir, it is not Health


    Quote
    271 - Why is it called Roman?

    Because the Roman Church is the head of all, because the Bishop of Rome, being the successor of St. Peter, becomes the Vicar of GC. and therefore the center of unity.

    "ALL MEMBERS OF ONE FAMILY because all help each other" - the faithful who live on earth. .. the saints in heaven .. . souls in purgatory ».

    In the "communion of saints" - in the "sharing of goods" - "all sanctified in baptism" - "all called to holiness" .

    272 - Only the faithful who live on earth belong to the true Church ?

    Also the Saints in heaven, and the souls in Purgatory.

    273 - What is the name of the Church of the Faithful on earth?

    The Church of the Faithful on earth is called militant because the Faithful on earth militate and fight to obtain the glory of Heaven.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #78 on: March 15, 2021, 07:16:25 PM »
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  • The false BODers, the Implicit Faither's continue to quote the same doctored up lines from an English translation of a catechism written in Italian and only named after Pius X. They use that local catechism against all the dogmas on EENS and the Athanasian Creed.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #79 on: March 17, 2021, 01:09:39 PM »
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  • Here's the ENTIRE section on Baptism in the original hand-written manuscript.  Not a peep about BoD or BoB.

    431 - Che cosa è il Battesimo?
    Un Sacramento.
    432 - Che cosa fa in noi questo Sacramento?
    Cancella il peccato originale, e ci rende figliuoli di Dio e della Chiesa.
    433 - Il Battesimo toglie forse soltanto dall'anima il peccato originale?
    Nò - toglie anche i peccati attuali, se chi lo riceve ne avesse commessi e libera da tutte le pene dovute al peccato.
    434 - Chi dunque morisse subito dopo il Battesimo non avrebbe Purgat?
    No egli andrebbe diritto al Paradiso
    435 - Oltre che liberarci dal peccato, cosa porta nella nostra anima il Battesimo?
    Porta la grazia abituale - vale a dire ci amici di Dio pianta nella nostra anima la semenza delle virtù della [f. 62] fede, della Speranza, della Carità, e imprime il carattere
    436 - Che cosa vuol dire la parola Battesmo?
    La parola Battesimo vuol dire: lavanda
    437 - Qual'è la materia di questo Sacramento?
    E' l'acqua naturale.
    438 - E la forma?
    E' questa: Io ti battezzo nel nome del Padre e del Figliuolo e dello Spirito Santo.
    439 - Chi è il ministro di questo Sacramento?
    Il Vescovo e il Paroco - col permesso però possono battezzare anche li altri Sacerdoti e i Diaconi - e in caso di necessità tutti possono battezzare


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #80 on: March 17, 2021, 01:12:32 PM »
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  • And here's all he says about the possibility of salvation outside the Church.  Answer:  No.  No hemming and hawing and prevarication and invincible this or ignorance that.

    264 - Come, quelli che sono fuori della Chiesa non si salvano?
    Nonsignore, non si à Salute

    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #81 on: March 17, 2021, 03:41:48 PM »
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  • Apparently, the Catechism of Saint Pius X (Il Catechismo Maggiore di San Pio X) is a distinct work from The Catechism of Don Giuseppe Sarto, Archpriest of Salzano.

    The Catechism of Saint Pius X has this passage, which cites explicity Baptism of Desire (Battesimo di desiderio).

    567 D. Si può supplire in qualche modo alla mancanza del Battesimo?
    R. Alla mancanza del sacramento del Battesimo può supplire il martirio, che chiamasi Battesimo di sangue, o un atto di perfetto amor di Dio o di contrizione, che sia congiunto col desiderio almeno implicito del Battesimo, e questo si chiama Battesimo di desiderio.

    I haven't read the whole thread, so I am sorry if this has been said elsewhere.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #82 on: March 17, 2021, 07:20:08 PM »
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  • From Rorate Ceili. A letter from Pius X to Cardinal Respighi, dated 18 October 1912, approving The Catechism of Christian Doctrine. 

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/10/centennial-of-letter-of-pope-saint-pius.html



    Quote
    LETTER FROM THE HOLY FATHER PIUS X
    TO CARDINAL PIETRO RESPIGHI
    VICAR OF ROME
    BY WHICH THE APPROVAL
    OF THE CATECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
    IS GIVEN FOR THE DIOCESIS AND ECCLESIATICAL PROVINCE
    OF ROME




    __________________________________

    Lord Cardinal,

    Since the beginning of Our Pontificate We have dedicated the greatest care in the religious instruction of the Christian people, in particular of the children, convinced that many of the evils that afflict the Church are caused by ignorance of her doctrines and laws. The enemies of the Church condemn them, blaspheming that which they ignore, and many of Her children, knowing them badly, live as if they did not exist. For this reason, We often insisted on the absolute necessity of Catechism instruction, and We promoted it everywhere, in accordance with Our power, both through the Encyclical Letter Acerbo nimis, and with dispositions regarding catechisms in parishes, with the approval and encouragement of Catechistic Congresses and Religion schools, and with the introduction of the text of the Catechism here in Rome, which has been used for some time now in some large ecclesiastical provinces in Italy.

    However, with the passing of the years and as a result of new difficulties interfering insidiously in the ordinary teaching of Christian Doctrine in the schools, where it was imparted for centuries, along with the provident anticipation of the First Communion for children, which We desired, as well as for other reasons expressed to Us, that is, a need for an adequate Catechism, one which was also shorter and more suitable for today’s necessities, We consented to reducing the Old Catechism into a new one, significantly condensed, which We, Ourselves examined and wished also to be examined by our brother Bishops in Italy, in order that they, according to their knowledge and experience, would express their opinion in general and indicate in particular the modifications to be introduced.

    Having received an almost unanimous favourable appreciation from them, with more than a few precious observations, which we ordered to be held in due account, it seems to Us, for various reasons, that we must not delay any further in a substitution of the text, recognized as opportune, trusting that with the Lord’s benediction, it will be more convenient and as much as, if not more, profitable than the old one, since the volume of the book and the things to be learned having been quite reduced, it will not discourage the youth, already seriously overburdened by scholastic programmes, and will thus permit teachers and catechists to make them learn it all. Here they will find, despite its brevity, the truths better explained and accentuated, those that nowadays are the most hardly fought, misunderstood, or forgotten, and which result in immense harm done to souls and society.

    In fact, we hope that even adults, those who wish, as at times they should, in order to live better and for the education of their family, to revive in their soul the fundamental knowledge on which the spiritual and moral life of a Christian is based, that they are to find this brief account useful and pleasing, very accurate even in its form, where they will encounter, set forth with great simplicity, the most important Divine truths and the most efficacious Christian reflections.

    This Catechism, therefore, and the prime elements from it that We have set out to be used, without any altering of the text, is for the convenience of children. We, with the authority of this letter, approve and prescribe to the ecclesiastical Diocese and Province of Rome the use of this text, forbidding, henceforth, the use of other texts in the teaching of catechism. Regarding the other Italian dioceses, the pledge is enough for Us, that the same text, which We and many other Ordinaries have deemed adequate, be adopted as well, so that the deadly confusion and discomfort that today so many experience in the frequent changes of abode, cease, when finding in their new place of residence, formulas and texts notably different which they have difficulty in learning, whilst at the same time, because of disuse, they confuse and ultimately forget even that which they once knew. It is worse for children, since there is nothing so deadly in obtaining good results from teaching as continuing it with a different text other than the one to which the youngster is more or less already accustomed.

    With the introduction of the present text, adults might encounter some difficulties, as some formulas have strayed from precedent ones, so it is for this reason, in order to remove these inconveniences, that We order that at all the main feast-day Masses, as also in all of the classes on Christian doctrine, that the initial prayers and the other principle formulas be recited, at the beginning, aloud, clearly, and in a composed manner. In that way, after a little while, without effort, everyone will have learned them. Thus, an excellent and amiable habit of common prayer and instruction will be introduced which has been in vigor in many Italian dioceses for some time now, with much edification and profit.

    In the name of the Lord, We strongly exhort all catechists, now that the brevity itself of the text eases their work, to explain the Christian doctrine with even greater care and allow it to penetrate the souls of young people, as today there is a greater need for solid religious instruction because of the spreading of godlessness and immorality. That they remember always that the fruit of the Catechism depends almost entirely on their enthusiasm, intelligence, and ability in rendering the instruction easier and more pleasing to their students.

    Let us pray to God that, as the enemies of the Faith who are currently constantly increasing in numbers and strength and who with every means go about propagating error, as many willing souls will rise up to assist parish priests, Christian teachers, and parents with great enthusiasm, in the much needed noble and fruitful teaching of the Catechism.

    It is with this wish that We heartily impart Our apostolic blessing to you, your Lordship, and to all those who will be the collaborators in such a holy mission.

    From the Vatican, October 18, 1912.

    PIUS PP. X.


    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?
    « Reply #83 on: March 17, 2021, 07:20:45 PM »
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  • From Rorate Ceili. A letter from Pius X to Cardinal Respighi, dated 18 October 1912, approving The Catechism of Christian Doctrine.

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/10/centennial-of-letter-of-pope-saint-pius.html
    Never trust; always verify.