CathInfo.com

If you cannot call a priest Father, then you definitly have a problem.  Work on correcting that problem before you worry about anything else.

I name the author of an error in the usual way authors are named. Why would I want to emphasize that it's an ordained priest who spreads the error?


And a recommendation for you: Start worrying about the true Faith of the Church rather than about the teachings of men.

I actually read Trent the same way as you and used to argue that no baptism = no justification as you do. I still believe that but not enough to concern myself with it for the simple reason that even if it were possible to be justified without Baptism as the saints of the OT were, no one gets into heaven without the sacrament.

Additionally, if that hypothetical person were to be justified before receiving the sacrament, no way would God permit that hypothetical person to die before providing for him that which he desires and is in need of for salvation, i.e. the sacrament of baptism.

At any rate, I am done with you until you show proper respect for priests. Although you think you're something, you're certainly in no position to be disrespecting anyone, least of all priests.

I actually read Trent the same way as you and used to argue that no baptism = no justification as you do. I still believe that but not enough to concern myself with it for the simple reason that even if it were possible to be justified without Baptism as the saints of the OT were, no one gets into heaven without the sacrament.

Additionally, if that hypothetical person were to be justified before receiving the sacrament, no way would God permit that hypothetical person to die before providing for him that which he desires and is in need of for salvation, i.e. the sacrament of baptism.

At any rate, I am done with you until you show proper respect for priests. Although you think you're something, you're certainly in no position to be disrespecting anyone, least of all priests.

My observations on this side track debate of whether a person can be justified before baptism:

1) Struthio is quoting Trent, that there is no justification without baptism. Struthio does not believe in baptism of desire of the catechumen (let alone what 99% of false BODers believe that salvation by implicit faith)

2) Pax Vobis believes that there is justification before baptism, but he limits his belief to baptism of desire of the catechumen and implicit baptism of desire of St. Alphonsus Ligouri, both require belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity (if I remember correctly, St. Thomas taught that such souls go to Purgatory, while St. Alphonsus Ligouri said they went to Heaven) .

3) Stubborn does not believe in baptism of desire the same as Struthio, but he is defending Fr. Feeney's teachings about justification before baptism, which he does not consider of importance since he believes no one is justified  who is not later baptzed. 

4) for the record, I am with Struthio here, and there is more proof in Trent than what he posted.

Bottom Line is that the above details would never had occurred to any of us were it not for the fact that all of Catholicism has gone nuts and today believes that anyone can be saved outside of the Church. THAT is the problem.