Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up? (Read 5282 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #30 on:** August 12, 2019, 09:54:50 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 12, 2019, 09:31:45 AM

Dogma: They were not justified when they died. See above, the Council of Trent.
Conclusion: They were justified later, not before the Lord died.

You should stop writing and start forgetting about Feeney and start studying the Decree on Justifaction of the Council of Trent.

You should call all priests FATHER. Disrespecting priests is unjust.

At any rate, Fr. Feeney was not claiming that infidels can be justified, in that quote, he was pandering to the liberals. Further on, he says:

Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.
Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification
saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?
A. No. They are not saved.
Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.
Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.
Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!
Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such
souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail
over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2019, 10:00:58 AM »

Quote

Dogma: They were not justified when they died. See above, the Council of Trent.

1. Trent's doctrines do not apply to the Old Testament to the same degree as the New.
2. When Scripture says that someone was "just", it means they were holy. Justification is another name for the "state of grace".
3. Those who went to the "Limbo of the Just" after they died, went there because they died in a "just" state.
4. They could not enter heaven because Christ had not yet died and redeemed mankind.

Struthio · « **Reply #32 on:** August 12, 2019, 12:10:47 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 09:54:50 AM

At any rate, Fr. Feeney was not claiming that infidels can be justified, in that quote, he was pandering to the liberals. Further on, he says:

Q. Can anyone now be saved without Baptism of Water?
A. No one can be saved without Baptism of Water.
Q. Are the souls of those who die in the state of justification
saved, if they have not received Baptism of Water?

You simply repeat the error of Feeney which contradicts the Council of Trent, as if the contradiction would cease to exist if you repeat the error.

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 09:54:50 AM

A. No. They are not saved.
Q. Where do these souls go if they die in the state of justification but have not received Baptism of Water?

Here, Feeney himself repeats that same error.

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 09:54:50 AM

A. I do not know.
Q. Do they go to Hell?
A. No.
Q. Do they go to Heaven?
A. No.
Q. Are there any such souls?
A. I do not know! Neither do you!

We do know that there are no souls who die in the state of justification without having been baptized, since the Council of Trent teaches so. Feeney contradicts the Council of Trent, the Decree on Justification.

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 09:54:50 AM

Q. What are we to say to those who believe there are such
souls?
A. We must say to them that they are making reason prevail
over Faith, and the laws of probability over the Providence of God.

We must say to Feeney that he makes his own ideas prevail over Faith, contradicting the Council of Trent.

Stubborn · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2019, 12:24:54 PM »

If you cannot call a priest Father, then you definitly have a problem. Work on correcting that problem before you worry about anything else.

Struthio · « **Reply #34 on:** August 12, 2019, 12:45:14 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 12, 2019, 10:00:58 AM

1. Trent's doctrines do not apply to the Old Testament to the same degree as the New.

Trent teaches On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man. And Trent teaches that after the promulgation of the gospel baptism is the instrumental cause of justification.

Stubborn and you reject this teaching after the text has been pasted right in front of your noses. Instead, you keep defending the heresy that a man who has not been baptized can die justified.

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 12, 2019, 10:00:58 AM

2. When Scripture says that someone was "just", it means they were holy. Justification is another name for the "state of grace".

There was no sanctifying grace before Our Lord died. There was no state of grace before our Lord died. There was noone justified before our Lord died. Those called just in the Old Testament, went to hell (limbo). Noone is in hell in the state of grace.

Start reading and studying the Council of Trent instead of spreading error after error.

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 12, 2019, 10:00:58 AM

3. Those who went to the "Limbo of the Just" after they died, went there because they died in a "just" state.
4. They could not enter heaven because Christ had not yet died and redeemed mankind.

That's the teaching of Pax Vobis who refuses to look at the teaching of the Church.

They could not be justified, they could not be in the state of grace, because they could not have "received the benefit of His death", since Our Lord hadn't died yet. They were "under the power of the devil and of death" which is why they had to wait in hell.

You contradict clear Church teaching on the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

Struthio · « **Reply #35 on:** August 12, 2019, 12:49:37 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 12:24:54 PM

If you cannot call a priest Father, then you definitly have a problem. Work on correcting that problem before you worry about anything else.

I name the author of an error in the usual way authors are named. Why would I want to emphasize that it's an ordained priest who spreads the error?

And a recommendation for you: Start worrying about the true Faith of the Church rather than about the teachings of men.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #36 on:** August 12, 2019, 02:11:26 PM »

Quote

Trent teaches On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man. And Trent teaches that after the promulgation of the gospel baptism is the instrumental cause of justification.

What in blazes are you talking about? Those of the Old Testament who went to the Limbo of the Just were justified by the Jєωιѕн Faith! They were justified by the rite of circuмcision and by the sacrifices of the old law, which were still in effect until Pentacost.
.

Quote

There was no sanctifying grace before Our Lord died. There was no state of grace before our Lord died. There was noone justified before our Lord died. Those called just in the Old Testament, went to hell (limbo). Noone is in hell in the state of grace.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You can't use a Church council's explanation of the New Testament laws to understand the Old Law.
.

Quote

They could not be justified, they could not be in the state of grace, because they could not have "received the benefit of His death", since Our Lord hadn't died yet. They were "under the power of the devil and of death" which is why they had to wait in hell.

Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the prophets, etc, etc were "under the power of the devil"? You're nuttier than squirrel turds.

Stubborn · « **Reply #37 on:** August 12, 2019, 02:22:23 PM »

I actually read Trent the same way as you and used to argue that no baptism = no justification as you do. I still believe that but not enough to concern myself with it for the simple reason that even if it were possible to be justified without Baptism as the saints of the OT were, no one gets into heaven without the sacrament.

Additionally, if that hypothetical person were to be justified before receiving the sacrament, no way would God permit that hypothetical person to die before providing for him that which he desires and is in need of for salvation, i.e. the sacrament of baptism.

At any rate, I am done with you until you show proper respect for priests. Although you think you're something, you're certainly in no position to be disrespecting anyone, least of all priests.

Stubborn · « **Reply #38 on:** August 12, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 12, 2019, 02:11:26 PM

What in blazes are you talking about? Those of the Old Testament who went to the Limbo of the Just were justified by the Jєωιѕн Faith! They were justified by the rite of circuмcision and by the sacrifices of the old law, which were still in effect until Pentacost.
.You have no idea what you're talking about. You can't use a Church council's explanation of the New Testament laws to understand the Old Law.
.Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and all the prophets, etc, etc were "under the power of the devil"? You're nuttier than squirrel turds.

Good points Pax, but don't forget Saints Adam and Eve who were certainly justified before they sinned, yet could not enter heaven either in that state.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #39 on:** August 13, 2019, 01:58:08 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 12, 2019, 02:22:23 PM

I actually read Trent the same way as you and used to argue that no baptism = no justification as you do. I still believe that but not enough to concern myself with it for the simple reason that even if it were possible to be justified without Baptism as the saints of the OT were, no one gets into heaven without the sacrament.

Additionally, if that hypothetical person were to be justified before receiving the sacrament, no way would God permit that hypothetical person to die before providing for him that which he desires and is in need of for salvation, i.e. the sacrament of baptism.

At any rate, I am done with you until you show proper respect for priests. Although you think you're something, you're certainly in no position to be disrespecting anyone, least of all priests.

My observations on this side track debate of whether a person can be justified before baptism:

1) Struthio is quoting Trent, that there is no justification without baptism. Struthio does not believe in baptism of desire of the catechumen (let alone what 99% of false BODers believe that salvation by implicit faith)

2) Pax Vobis believes that there is justification before baptism, but he limits his belief to baptism of desire of the catechumen and implicit baptism of desire of St. Alphonsus Ligouri, both require belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity (if I remember correctly, St. Thomas taught that such souls go to Purgatory, while St. Alphonsus Ligouri said they went to Heaven) .

3) Stubborn does not believe in baptism of desire the same as Struthio, but he is defending Fr. Feeney's teachings about justification before baptism, which he does not consider of importance since he believes no one is justified who is not later baptzed.

4) for the record, I am with Struthio here, and there is more proof in Trent than what he posted.

Bottom Line is that the above details would never had occurred to any of us were it not for the fact that all of Catholicism has gone nuts and today believes that anyone can be saved outside of the Church. THAT is the problem.

Stubborn · « **Reply #40 on:** August 13, 2019, 06:38:52 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 01:58:08 AM

My observations on this side track debate of whether a person can be justified before baptism:

1) Struthio is quoting Trent, that there is no justification without baptism. Struthio does not believe in baptism of desire of the catechumen (let alone what 99% of false BODers believe that salvation by implicit faith)

2) Pax Vobis believes that there is justification before baptism, but he limits his belief to baptism of desire of the catechumen and implicit baptism of desire of St. Alphonsus Ligouri, both require belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity (if I remember correctly, St. Thomas taught that such souls go to Purgatory, while St. Alphonsus Ligouri said they went to Heaven) .

3) Stubborn does not believe in baptism of desire the same as Struthio, but he is defending Fr. Feeney's teachings about justification before baptism, which he does not consider of importance since he believes no one is justified who is not later baptzed.

4) for the record, I am with Struthio here, and there is more proof in Trent than what he posted.

Bottom Line is that the above details would never had occurred to any of us were it not for the fact that all of Catholicism has gone nuts and today believes that anyone can be saved outside of the Church. THAT is the problem.

I am not actually defending Fr. Feeney - in Bread of Life, he said that he "did not know and neither do you" if there were any souls justified before baptism. Struthio has a major problem with him not knowing and saying he does not know. Too bad he doesn't read the book.

And there is the problem of the OT saints, who were certainly justified - even if one were to deny there were people justified in the OT yet could not get into heaven, no one can deny that Saints Adam and Eve were created justified and were in the state of justification until they sinned. They won God's forgiveness (were justified) by their toiling the earth for +900 years among other things, whereas the other OT saints were justified by adhering to the Law and belief in the Messias to come.

And yes, that's the bottom line you spelled out.

Stubborn · « **Reply #41 on:** August 13, 2019, 07:30:49 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 01:58:08 AM

4) for the record, I am with Struthio here, and there is more proof in Trent than what he posted.

So Last Tradhican, what's your take on the Old Testament saints? Yes, they went to Limbo ("hell") and did make it to heaven for their eternity after Christ's Ascension into heaven, so how did they get into heaven if they were not in the state of justification when they died?

Struthio believes his own opinion that they were justified after they died while in Limbo. I might be mistaken, but I think it was Fr. Feeney who opined that all the souls in Limbo were baptized after Christ descended into hell, before He Ascended into heaven. Not sure where I read it but he said it was only his opinion. Which seems to align more with Struthio's idea.

Now Trent speaks of the "instrumental cause" of justification; "the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified..."

Trent goes on and speaks of the "alone formal cause", which (for me any way) seems to not include the "instrumental cause";

"...lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh
us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost
distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said
justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is
ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #42 on:** August 13, 2019, 08:04:58 AM »

Yes, it's hard to believe that St. Joseph was not in a state of justification. And, in fact, I find it difficult to believe that Our Lord did not teach him about the Holy Trinity and that therefore he had explicit faith in those as well ... but no Baptism, so no heaven.

Struthio · « **Reply #43 on:** August 13, 2019, 08:07:22 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 13, 2019, 01:58:08 AM

Bottom Line is that the above details would never had occurred to any of us were it not for the fact that all of Catholicism has gone nuts and today believes that anyone can be saved outside of the Church. THAT is the problem.

Worse than that: folks call themselves Catholic but reject defined Catholic dogma, reject truth fallen from heaven, thus calling God a liar.

Whether they want to see the whole world saved, or catechumens only, or whether they want to see the OT fathers justified before the death of Our Lord. It's all the same: They call God a liar by rejecting His Church teaching absolute truth.

And worse are those who reject Catholic dogma, even when it's put in front of their nose. How can they hope to justify such action on Judgement Day? How can they run around hoping to correct others, and at the same time refuse to correct their own errors?

P.S.: @Stubborn
Nobody says "this is opposed to the opinion of Fr Suarez". All say "this is opposed to the opinion of Suarez".

Stubborn · « **Reply #44 on:** August 13, 2019, 09:04:44 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 13, 2019, 08:07:22 AM

P.S.: @Stubborn
Nobody says "this is opposed to the opinion of Fr Suarez". All say "this is opposed to the opinion of Suarez".

FYI, you're nobody. Other priests or theologians are not "all". If your mother never taught you what proper respect is for addressing priests, I have no illusions that I'm able to.

Author Topic: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up? (Read 5282 times)

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Pax Vobis

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Struthio

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Struthio

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Struthio

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Pax Vobis

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Last Tradhican

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Ladislaus

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Struthio

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?

Stubborn

Re: Will the Real Catechism of Pius X Please Stand Up?