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Author Topic: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?  (Read 15936 times)

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Offline Recusant Sede

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Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2017, 07:50:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on November 01, 2017, 06:47:01 AM
    .
    I cannot understand why it's so important to some to go around proclaiming their faith in a theory of speculation.
    .It’s not speculation when *all* of the Church’s popes, bishops, catechisms, theologians, canonists teach BOD for 400+ years (again, not saying that it was not taught from the beginning)....that is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.


    To say it's been supported by theologians for hundreds of years for them is all they need.

    It is the OUM.
    .
    Never mind the same theologians have been wrong in other cases.
    .
    The teaching is unanimous, they can’t all be wrong and lead souls into error. This is one way a Catholic can distinguish between true and false teaching. This is why if some NO bishop insisted that there are no such things as guardian angels, you would recognize that this person was spouting heresy. No offense, but it seems to me this is why you run afoul with regard to the sedevacantist position. The Church can’t officially teach error, period. 


    Take St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, who denied the Immaculate Conception, based on a pagan tradition of "ensoulment."

    Firstly, this was before it was defined by the Extraordinary Magisterium. Secondly, he did not deny it, he was just mistaken about ensoulment because science had not advanced to that level of understanding in the 13th century.
    .
    That alone could have slowed down the Definition for several hundred years.
    .
    But the Nicene Creed's words "I believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is to be understood in a different way....?

    No, it is understood in only one way.
    .
    It doesn't say three baptisms, does it?

    There is only one sacrament of baptism. BOD is just a descriptive name of how one can be justified by desiring the sacrament if he dies before actually receiving the actual sacrament, it is NOT a sacrament. 
    .
    I heard an otherwise reliable priest say that I John 5:8 refers to this -- when the subject of that Scripture is not Baptism.
    .
    Then he said BoD and BoB are not sacraments, but "these three are one."
    .
    You can't make this stuff up.
    .
    Now they argue that St. Emerentiana never received Baptism.
    .
    Show me her Baptism of Desire Certificate.

    One of the reasons she stands out in the Roman Martyrology is the fact that she *was* a catechumen. Catechumens are by definition NOT baptized.
    .
    Show me ANYONE'S Baptism of Desire Certificate!

    See above.
    .
    If St. Emerentiana sincerely asked God for Baptism of water then certainly God must have provided it for her.
    .
    Yes he could’ve, but he didn’t.

    How could He have refused her such a simple matter?

    God’s ways are not your ways.
    .
    Just to break His own rule so the liberals could make the Exception into the New Rule?

    Liberals like, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Alphonsus, Venerable Pius IX?
    .
    Why can't we just be concerned with the essential matters and leave the speculation for theologians?
    .
    It’s not speculation.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #31 on: November 01, 2017, 08:41:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Recusant Sede on October 31, 2017, 05:34:56 PM
    Does anyone know why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism not only on Cathinfo, but in the traditional world in general?

    It's because many Traditonal Catholics come to the realization that all the Vatican II errors derive from Vatican II ecclesiology.  And one cannot come to terms with these ecclesiological questions without addressing the points raised by Father Feeney.  Once these Catholics wrestle with these ecclesiological issues, they come to the realization that most anti-Feeneyites have an ecclesiology that's identical to that of Vatican II and that there's no justification for them to be Traditional Catholics.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #32 on: November 01, 2017, 08:43:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Recusant Sede on October 31, 2017, 08:37:30 PM
    *All* (as far as I know) popes, saints, theologians, canonists for the last 400 plus years have taught that one who has not been baptized can be saved if they have the desire for the sacrament of baptism and make and act of perfect contrition before they die. This is an act of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which is infallible.

    The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide. Obviously, I believe that this teaching was even taught by the Church from it’s beginning.
    RS, 

    Fortunately, you're wrong on this point about Trent.

    Your reference is from a doctored English translation, which started appearing in the 1890's. TAN books carries on the error.

    If you reference a Trent Catechism, from 1850 and before, you won't see a whiff of BOD and BOB.

    I've easily found these pre 1850 references, like this one: Trent Catechism (1829)

    A friend on mine went as far as to purchase an antique Catechism from the 1600's and verified the same.

    Father Leonard Feeney made reference to this fact in his self-defense for one Water baptism.
    That is in the original Latin version of the Council of Trent, there is no BOD or BOB.

    And finally, BOD and BOB are not de fide.  

    A quick reference to this is Father Hesse's admission that the issue has not been resolved. He was sympathetic to St. Thomas Aquinas's speculation about the existence of BOD and BOB.

    He had nothing to back it up and he was over-ruled by Pope Innocent III (1215), Pope Boniface VIII (1302) and Pope Eugene IV (1441).

    And since it is the wonderful feast of "All Saints Day" and we're quoting Saints, I dare you to read the Mystical City of God by St. Maria Agreda.   See what the Blessed Mother told her about Water Baptism.  

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #33 on: November 01, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
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    • Quote
    Does anyone know why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism strict EENS'ers (people who believe that dogmas are the final judgement of God on a matter).
    Ladislaus perfectly answered the question.

    Put another way, We believe that ALL dogmas are the final judgement of God on a matter till then in question. If dogma has to be interpreted to mean the opposite of what it clearly says, then it is useless and our Faith is  a vapor.

    On the other side, we have the people who believe in baptism of desire, what we call the BODers. The seminaries of the Novus Ordo's, the SSPX, the sedevacantes , are BOD teachers, they ALL teach that Jєωs,  Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed all peoples in false religions, can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. They teach that people can be saved without belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, without desire to be a Catholic or baptized, and even with impassioned hate for Christ and His Church. THAT is why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism strict EENS'ers .

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #34 on: November 01, 2017, 09:28:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 01, 2017, 09:21:38 AM
    On the other side, we have what we call the BODers. The seminaries of the Novus Ordo's, the SSPX, the sedevacantes, ...
    Are you (^*&ing kidding me? First, people like me catch shit because, yeah, I back people like the Dimonds, who also catch shit, in no small part BECAUSE THEY STOMP ON BOD/B MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, then people like me get batched with a bunch of (UYTtard heretics, WHO MOSTLY THINK THAT THE CONCILIAR FAKES ARE ACTUALLY POPES...

    Just choke yourself Blowhican.
    Dimwit.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #35 on: November 01, 2017, 09:29:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 01, 2017, 08:43:59 AM
    RS,

    Fortunately, you're wrong on this point about Trent.

    Your reference is from a doctored English translation, which started appearing in the 1890's. TAN books carries on the error.

    If you reference a Trent Catechism, from 1850 and before, you won't see a whiff of BOD and BOB.

    I've easily found these pre 1850 references, like this one: Trent Catechism (1829)

    A friend on mine went as far as to purchase an antique Catechism from the 1600's and verified the same.

    Father Leonard Feeney made reference to this fact in his self-defense for one Water baptism.
    That is in the original Latin version of the Council of Trent, there is no BOD or BOB.
    Didn't know that, thanks.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #36 on: November 01, 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 01, 2017, 09:40:42 AM
    That would make these men heretics right?

    They are teaching a false gospel aren't they?
    That would make you a heretic, right?

    How do you like it? How do you like being called a heretic? How do you like being part of a big, fat, category cluster?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #37 on: November 01, 2017, 09:46:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 01, 2017, 09:40:42 AM
    That would make these men heretics right?

    They are teaching a false gospel aren't they?
    If it is not a heresy, then the SSPX and the Sedes have no reason to object to Vatican II, for it dogmatically declares their teaching to be the correct interpretation.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 09:48:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 01, 2017, 09:46:16 AM
    If it is not a heresy, then the SSPX and the Sedes have no reason to object to Vatican II, for it dogmatically declares their teaching to be the correct interpretation.
    Where'd you go sugar britches? We ain't done.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 09:53:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 01, 2017, 09:51:23 AM
    No it would not.
    Who cares? That's how it works here, right? You call me a heretic, I call you a heretic..

    Truth? Justice? Pfft.... who cares? Why care? Long as you get to lord it.

    "Here's lookin' (down) at you kid".
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #40 on: November 01, 2017, 10:00:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 01, 2017, 09:56:47 AM
    Calm down, when did I call you a heretic? I responded to Tradhican.
    Learn to read.
    Pay attention.

    Enough is enough.

    Some people push back.

    Some people push back harder than you're either willing or able to.

    Read. Wake up.

    If you just called me a heretic, then that's on your soul.

    But you just, hopefully inadvertently, trashed a whole group of people for no good cause, which is also on your soul.

     Everybody gets fed, and error has no rights.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #41 on: November 01, 2017, 10:06:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on November 01, 2017, 09:56:47 AM
    Calm down, when did I call you a heretic? I responded to Tradhican.
    To be fair, you deserve credit, unlike your nancy boy, lost of the tradhican, pal in at least stepping up instead of ducking out.

    Thank you for that at least.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #42 on: November 01, 2017, 10:07:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on November 01, 2017, 09:28:44 AM
    Are you (^*&ing kidding me? First, people like me catch shit because, yeah, I back people like the Dimonds, who also catch shit, in no small part BECAUSE THEY STOMP ON BOD/B MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, then people like me get batched with a bunch of (UYTtard heretics, WHO MOSTLY THINK THAT THE CONCILIAR FAKES ARE ACTUALLY POPES...

    Just choke yourself Blowhican.
    Dimwit.

    Take a pill, would you?  Dimonds are among the few exceptions to sedevacantists who promote BoD.  In fact, the most dogmatic sedevacantists are some of the most rabid BoDers ... often to the point of refusing the Sacraments to Feeneyites.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #43 on: November 01, 2017, 10:19:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on November 01, 2017, 10:14:45 AM
    But it's disgusting to get lumped in with the BOD/Uni. Sal. Sedevacantists. It's "funny" how it's become so "illogical" to take a definitive stance on issues. Especially ones directly related to Dogma. "You must be a sede if you're against FE". "You must be a feeneyite if you believe in strict EENS", "you must be a Sede if you believe in BOD" etc etc... All this grouping is ridiculous, you're either for Dogma and the facts relating to them, or you're not Catholic.
    Thanks, but it's pointless man, and I knew that going in.

    I'm a complete idiot for even trying.

    Mea culpa.

    HOwever, now that we've clarified the terms, if someone just happens to get collateraled, "take a pill, calm down...."

    Truth, discipline, virtue, justice, rigor... "who cares?"
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #44 on: November 01, 2017, 10:41:15 AM »
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    • Nope. Sorry. Not buying it any more, and grammar doesn't work that way, just like your last little commentary doesn't work.

    A simple retraction and correction would have been more than sufficient, but no need. 

    Screw it. 

    It is what it is, and it isn't changing any time soon. 
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