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Author Topic: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?  (Read 16017 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2017, 11:23:14 AM »
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    When he says, "they teach . . .," he's either talking about the teachers in the seminaries (and I think he's right about that) or BODers, not all sedevacantists.
    I said all the sedevacantes seminaries teach salvation by belief in a God that rewards. I also said the Novus Ordo and the SSPX seminaries teaches the same thing. A seminary is not a person. The sedesvacantes are not R&R, and the SSPXers are not sedevacantes.

    The Dimond's are persons, not seminaries, they are sede but they do not teach or believe  salvation by belief in a God that rewards.

    It is very rare to find a BODer that restricts his belief to baptism of desire of a catechumen. I've only known one in now 20+ years of debates with them. If such a person exists, they should be precise and say they only believe in the baptism of desire of St. Thomas, explicit desire to be a Catholic with at the minimum, explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. Or say they only believe in the restricted BOD of the catechumen or the BOB of the martyr.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #46 on: November 01, 2017, 12:08:00 PM »
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  • Where'd you go sugar britches? We ain't done.


    "Sugar britches"...  :confused:   (Sounds inherently nasty)

    I wonder how old that term is and if it's derived from Southern talk or British ?

    Virginia origin:
    Britches is slang for breeches, they are the kind of pants that George Washington wore that came down just past the knees and were worn with knee socks. The term "Sugar Britches" translates to "Sugar Pants" and is used affectionately like "Honey" or "Sweety"

    Brit origin:

    British term of endearment to one's girlfriend, wife, mistress...,
    "come here and give me a kiss there, sugar britches"

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #47 on: November 01, 2017, 01:43:21 PM »
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  • It's because many Traditonal Catholics come to the realization that all the Vatican II errors derive from Vatican II ecclesiology.  And one cannot come to terms with these ecclesiological questions without addressing the points raised by Father Feeney.  Once these Catholics wrestle with these ecclesiological issues, they come to the realization that most anti-Feeneyites have an ecclesiology that's identical to that of Vatican II and that there's no justification for them to be Traditional Catholics.
    .
    The list of innovations connected with Vatican II includes BoD and BoB and you won't find any Newchurch bishop that has any problem with them, just like they are in agreement with their false ecuмenism, anonymous Christians, salvation outside the Church, equality of religions, universal salvation and feelgoodism. 
    .
    It comes down to denial of the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism. 
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    Why bother with the Missions if it really doesn't matter? Mother Teresa of Calcutta offered a choice of Holy Water or Buddhist water to people she helped with physical aid. So she's a big hit with Newchurch. 
    .
    Go back a few hundred years and find Bishop Juan de Zumarraga in Mexico City along with his priests baptizing Mexicans for several years non-stop when they took one look at La Virgen de Guadalupe, received the Faith immediately, and asked for Holy Baptism. They performed so many baptisms their hands became sore. They certainly didn't think the Sacrament wasn't necessary.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #48 on: November 01, 2017, 02:44:07 PM »
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  • .
    Recusant comment.  "The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide."
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    What a rotten liar you are Recusant.  The Council of Trent, Session XIV, gave the exact and full definition on Justification and nowhere is desire mentioned at all!
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    The Council of Trent, Session XIV, Sovereign Pontiff, Julius III., celebrated on the twenty-fifth of November, 1551.
    .
    Doctrine on the Sacrament of Penance.
    .
    The sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, -lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legate and Nuncios of the holy Apostolic See presiding therein, --although, in the decree concerning Justification, there has been, through a certain kind of necessity, on account of the affinity of the subjects, much discourse introduced touching the sacrament of Penance; nevertheless, so great, in these our days, is the multitude of various errors relative to this sacrament, that it will be of no small public utility to have given thereof a more exact and full definition, wherein, all errors having been, under the protection of the Holy Ghost, pointed out and extirpated, Catholic truth may be made clear and resplendent; which (Catholic truth) this holy Synod now sets before all Christians to be perpetually retained.
    .
    CHAPTER II.
    .
    On the difference between the Sacrament of Penance and that of Baptism.
    .
    For the rest, this sacrament is clearly seen to be different from baptism in many respects: for besides that it is very widely different indeed in matter and form, which constitute the essence of a sacrament, it is beyond doubt certain that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, seeing that the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not entered therein through the gate of baptism. For, what have I, saith the apostle, to do to judge them that are without?(m) It is otherwise with those who are of the household of the faith, whom Christ our Lord has once, by the laver of baptism, made the members of His own body; for such, if they should afterwards have defiled themselves by any crime, He would no longer have them cleansed by a repetition of baptism--that being nowise lawful in the Catholic Church-but be placed as criminals before this tribunal; that, by the sentence of the priests, they might be freed, not once, but as often as, being penitent, they should, from their sins committed, flee thereunto. Furthermore, one is the fruit of baptism, and another that of penance. For, by baptism putting on Christ, (n) we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins : unto which newness and entireness, however, we are no ways able to arrive by the sacrament of Penance, without many tears and great labours on our parts, the divine justice demanding this; so that penance has justly been called by holy Fathers a laborious kind of baptism. (o) And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after baptism, necessary unto salvation ; as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.
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    Look, Recusant, not one word of desire is mentioned, why is that?  Because it is not taught, it is an error like Pope Julius pointed out in the paragraph heading called "Doctrine on the Sacrament of Penance".
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    Saints themselves, have no power to make something ex cathedra!
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    Liars, cannot help but love lies!
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    You and Neil are perfect for each other!
    .
    Wow, this is getting hot.  I don't understand why this topic always gets so emotionally wild?

    It seems we should be able to debate it openly, keep and rank the solid evidence and throw-out unproven anecdotes.

    We have proven the case that the Trent Catechism, a defining docuмent, was tampered with at the publisher's level as far back as the late 19th Century.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #49 on: November 01, 2017, 02:45:17 PM »
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  • This is what I can't stand. They (the BODers) sit there and swear up and down that the Sacrament is necessary for Salvation, then offer exceptions to the actual reception of it for Salvation, clearly making it unnecessary.
    The contradiction of heretics is exhausting.
    I am not even familiar with the definition of a Feeneyite.

    Those who believe in the Baltimore Catechism definition of Baptism of Desire do not say that baptism is unnecessary, but that those catechumen on the way to receive Baptism, should they die beforehand, and should they have possessed perfect contrition and love of God (sanctifying grace) in their souls, that they will be granted life eternal with the angels and saints. However, Baptism of Desire should never be presumed the way the NO church does today, granting funerals for unbaptized babies.

    Many true stories have been told of unbaptized infants and catechumen who have died, but who have returned to life so that they could be baptized, and then died immediately after receiving that holy sacrament. Probably in those cases of adult catechumen who died, these catechumen were most likely unworthy and did not possess perfect contrition, or perhaps our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ sent them back to life to be baptized tin order to strengthen those priests and faithful who may have had doubts on the efficacy of Holy Baptism. It is obvious that babies and children before the age of reason, need to be baptized.

    On the other hand, I have heard many true stories of unbaptized children, near death, who approached Baptism, and who were granted full health to the delight of their grieving parents.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #50 on: November 01, 2017, 03:18:53 PM »
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  • Wow, this is getting hot.  I don't understand why this topic always gets so emotionally wild?

    It seems we should be able to debate it openly, keep and rank the solid evidence and throw-out unproven anecdotes.

    We have proven the case that the Trent Catechism, a defining docuмent, was tampered with at the publisher's level as far back as the late 19th Century.
    .
    Freedom likes to use lots of bold, italics, ALL CAPS and underline (sometimes ALL FOUR), giving the impression of emotional involvement. He seems to be ignorant of how difficult it makes for readers to get through his posts.
    .
    It seems to me that Fr. Martin Stepanich set the standard behind which mostly sedes but others also have marched in their clearly uncharitable assault of Fr. Feeney and his friends (such as Fr. Cekeda and CMRI priests). Sepanich uses emotionally charged invective, derisive adjectives, denigrating phrases and heated rhetoric against what he likes to call "The Feeneyites" and "their errors." He makes blanket statements then pretends to ignore them by implying the very thing he denounced a minute earlier. 
    .
    BoD and BoB were never the issue of concern for Fr. Feeney and his followers, but since he was solid in his stand on EENS naturally he garnered attacks from those who would take issue with him. If they couldn't face him directly regarding EENS then they'd use BoD and BoB as smokescreen topics with the intent to besmirch his reputation. 
    .
    If it were not for the Liberals attacking him to get Fr. Feeney out of the way first, they would never have been able to make Vatican II happen at all. He was their principal obstacle to "progress." 
    .
    Fr. Stepanich was unable to do anything at all during Vat.II, and he helplessly stood by while his Franciscan confreres went along with the popular trend -- note: a popular trend that included BoB and BoD. You'd think he might have wised up and have joined forces with Fr. Feeney instead of making a mountain out of a molehill in opposition to him. They should have been friends with a common enemy: Modernism. But no, for Fr. Stepanich, BoD and BoB were far more important than Sacred Tradition and the attack that Vat.II waged against it. In that way, Stepanich supported the revolution!
    .
    And now for his lemmings, it's still a really big deal. . . . . H U G E .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #51 on: November 01, 2017, 03:28:07 PM »
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  • .
    You see what happens when you post your replies inside the quote box -- no one can quote your response because the reply box is blank.
    .
    If you want to have a discussion, please put your replies outside the quote box.
    .
    I had to paste the following in here, and the system won't let me see what I'm typing.
    .
    Quote from: Neil Obstat on Today at 04:47:01 AM
    Quote
    .
    I cannot understand why it's so important to some to go around proclaiming their faith in a theory of speculation.
    .It’s not speculation when *all* of the Church’s popes, bishops, catechisms, theologians, canonists teach BOD for 400+ years (again, not saying that it was not taught from the beginning)....that is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.


    To say it's been supported by theologians for hundreds of years for them is all they need.

    It is the OUM.
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    Never mind the same theologians have been wrong in other cases.
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    The teaching is unanimous, they can’t all be wrong and lead souls into error. This is one way a Catholic can distinguish between true and false teaching. This is why if some NO bishop insisted that there are no such things as guardian angels, you would recognize that this person was spouting heresy. No offense, but it seems to me this is why you run afoul with regard to the sedevacantist position. The Church can’t officially teach error, period. 


    Take St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, who denied the Immaculate Conception, based on a pagan tradition of "ensoulment."

    Firstly, this was before it was defined by the Extraordinary Magisterium. Secondly, he did not deny it, he was just mistaken about ensoulment because science had not advanced to that level of understanding in the 13th century.
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    That alone could have slowed down the Definition for several hundred years.
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    But the Nicene Creed's words "I believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is to be understood in a different way....?

    No, it is understood in only one way.
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    It doesn't say three baptisms, does it? 

    There is only one sacrament of baptism. BOD is just a descriptive name of how one can be justified by desiring the sacrament if he dies before actually receiving the actual sacrament, it is NOT a sacrament. 
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    I heard an otherwise reliable priest say that I John 5:8 refers to this -- when the subject of that Scripture is not Baptism.
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    Then he said BoD and BoB are not sacraments, but "these three are one." 
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    You can't make this stuff up.
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    Now they argue that St. Emerentiana never received Baptism. 
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    Show me her Baptism of Desire Certificate. 

    One of the reasons she stands out in the Roman Martyrology is the fact that she *was* a catechumen. Catechumens are by definition NOT baptized.
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    Show me ANYONE'S Baptism of Desire Certificate!

    See above.
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    If St. Emerentiana sincerely asked God for Baptism of water then certainly God must have provided it for her. 
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    Yes he could’ve, but he didn’t.

    How could He have refused her such a simple matter?

    God’s ways are not your ways.
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    Just to break His own rule so the liberals could make the Exception into the New Rule?

    Liberals like, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Alphonsus, Venerable Pius IX?
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    Why can't we just be concerned with the essential matters and leave the speculation for theologians?
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    It’s not speculation.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #52 on: November 01, 2017, 03:31:18 PM »
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  • .
    As soon as Matthew finds this thread and sees what happened in the Crisis forum, he's going to move it to the BoD child forum.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #53 on: November 01, 2017, 03:39:30 PM »
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  • Baptism, as dictated by The Mother of God to Sister Mary of Jesus, 
    Superioress of the convent of the Immaculate Conception of the tower of Agreda, of the province of Burgos in Spain, under obedience to the regular observance of the seraphic father Saint Francis (Otherwise known as St. Maria of Agreda):


    "Mystical City of God, The Coronation" (First published May 6, 1667)
    (Translation from the original Authorized Spanish Edition by Fiscar Marion 1902)
    Imprimatur, Edwin V. Byrne, D.D., Archbishop of Sante Fe

    Chapter XII, 

    The Apostles and Disciples Meet In Order To Solve Some Doubts, In Particular About The Form Of Baptism; They Administer That Sacrament To The Catechumens; St. Peter Celebrates The First Mass; The Doings of Mary In the Meanwhile.


    Page 118, 

    Paragraph 100:

    Thereupon saint Peter ordained that on the following day (which corresponds to the Sunday of the most holy Trinity), Baptism should be given to those who had been converted that week; this arrangement of saint Peter was satisfactory to our Queen and to the other Apostles.  Immediately there arose a doubt as to what Baptism was to be given to them: the baptism of St. John or the Baptism of Christ our Savior.  To some it seemed that the baptism of saint John, which was that of penance, should be given to them and that through it they were to enter the faith and justification of their souls.  Others, on the contrary, said that with the Baptism and Death of Christ the baptism of saint John had expired, since it had served merely to prepare the souls for the reception of Christ the Redeemer, and the Baptism of the Lord gives grace sufficient for justifying the souls and for washing off all the sins from those properly disposed; and that it was necessary to introduce it immediately into the Church.

    Paragraph 101:

    This opinion was approved by saint John and saint Peter, and was confirmed by the most holy Mary. Hence they determined to institute at once the Baptism of Christ our Lord and to confer it on the new converts and the rest who came into the Church. In regard to the material and form of that Baptism there was no doubt among the Apostles; for all of them agreed that the material should be natural and elementary water and the form should be: I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; because these were the matter and the form designated by the Lord and Savior and these words He had made use of in the Baptism He had Himself administered.  This way of baptizing was observed always from that day on.  Wherever in the Acts of the Apostles it is said that they baptized in the name of Jesus, this saying does not refer to the form, but to the Author of the Baptism, namely Jesus, in contradistinction to the author of the other baptism, that of saint John. To baptize in the name of Jesus was the same as to baptize with with the Baptism of Jesus; but its form was that the Lord Himself had given and contains express mention of the three Persons of the most holy Trinity (Math. 27,19) as the foundation and beginning of all the Catholic truth and faith.  The Apostles therefore ordained, that all the catechumens should gather in the house of the Cenacle in order to be baptized; and that the seventy two disciples should have charge of preparing them for that occasion.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #54 on: November 01, 2017, 03:53:23 PM »
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  • Here you go:
    Then the operative condition for BOD is: "unforeseen accident" ?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #55 on: November 01, 2017, 04:36:57 PM »
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  • Then the operative condition for BOD is: "unforeseen accident" ?
    Indeed, but also another condition is that these adults be repentant.

    Quote
    "their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."


    Their repentance had to be perfect repentance, because mere attrition is not sufficient for God to grant them sanctifying grace, which is the very life of God dwelling within that soul. They must love God with their whole mind, their whole soul, and their entire being, and their neighbors as themselves. Furthermore, they must forgive all who have offended them, and most importantly, they must not be consumed with the fear of Hell, as that is attrition, not perfect contrition.
    .
    These conditions are not humanly possible for most catechumen as perfect contrition is very difficult to attain. Such a holy catechumen must have a very devout prayer life, which shows the presence of sanctifying grace already in their souls.

    God grants His graces to whomever He wills. Remember that St. John the Baptist was sanctified while still in his mother's womb as he leapt for joy inside his mother's womb when Our Lady came to greet St. Elizabeth.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #56 on: November 01, 2017, 05:01:28 PM »
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  • Freedom, please do not respond to my posts anymore.

    I have you on ignore.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #57 on: November 01, 2017, 05:05:59 PM »
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  • Indeed, can someone describe a circuмstance or what type of "accident" would be unforeseen by God?

    And if such a man is destined for the Kingdom, something which God has known from all time, can such an accident occur before God and snatch away this soul from His hand, and thwart his will?

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #58 on: November 01, 2017, 05:17:41 PM »
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  • Indeed, can someone describe a circuмstance or what type of "accident" would be unforeseen by God?

    And if such a man is destined for the Kingdom, something which God has known from all time, can such an accident occur before God and snatch away this soul from His hand, and thwart his will?
    An automobile accident, a horse accident, etc, are types of sudden accidents that would be unexpected or unforeseen by men, but not unforeseen by God as God knows all things. Even a venomous snake bite might kill someone before they can get medical help and seek baptism.
    .
    If a person is loving and kind, and already filled with sanctifying grace, even if not yet baptized, God could take that person home with Him in Paradise.
    .
    We do not know the Will of God. May His Will always be done.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #59 on: November 01, 2017, 05:25:59 PM »
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  • .
    PLEASE CONSIDER??
    .
    In charity,  I really would like everyone to pause and look and digest all the comments regarding BOD [desire] and the Council of Trent, chapters VI and XIV.  Those of good-will, will be able to see, regarding all the comments here, that this is exactly the thing, that was going on at the Council of Trent, from the time of Session VI, all the way to Session XIV.  Why would I say this??  Because Pope Julius saw it and the proof of it, is in his words, the first thing that Pope Julius said upon opening Session XIV is this!
    .
    Julius III., celebrated on the twenty-fifth of November, 1551.
    .
    Doctrine on the Sacrament of Penance.
    .
    The sacred and holy, ecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, -lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legate and Nuncios of the holy Apostolic See presiding therein, --although, in the decree concerning Justification, there has been, through a certain kind of necessity, on account of the affinity of the subjects, much discourse introduced touching the sacrament of Penance; nevertheless, so great, in these our days, is the multitude of various errors relative to this sacrament, that it will be of no small public utility to have given thereof a more exact and full definition, wherein, all errors having been, under the protection of the Holy Ghost, pointed out and extirpated, Catholic truth may be made clear and resplendent; which (Catholic truth) this holy Synod now sets before all Christians to be perpetually retained.
    .
    I would like everyone to consider, for a moment, as to what is said above, collectively and compare it to the incredible noise, from everyone now in this forum, on the topic of the fallacious BOD heresy?
    .
    Then, please consider that it would be necessary for Pope Julius to put this to rest and he did so, by giving an exact and full definition, by defining the differences between the sacrament of Justification and the sacrament of Penance.  When Pope Julius, spoke about Justification, he did not include the word "desire", when he spoke about the laver of baptism, at all!  He could have easily and without effort, incorporated the word "desire", with laver of baptism but he did not, its not there.  In the first sentence of chapter II, he even says that non-members of the Catholic church have no right to the sacrament of Penance, who have not entered the gate of baptism.  Which would have been another opportunity to incorporate the word "desire" but he didn't!  Pope Julius goes on to make clear, a distinction of Justification and Penance, as two fruits, unique, unto themselves.  And furthermore, he confirms this by saying that the sacrament of Penance is for those, who have fallen after baptism, just as baptism is for those, who have not yet been regenerated.  Another opportunity to incorporate the word "desire" but he did not do it.  Because it is not taught!  
    .
    Chapter II.
    .
    On the difference between the Sacrament of Penance and that of Baptism.
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    For the rest, this sacrament is clearly seen to be different from baptism in many respects: for besides that it is very widely different indeed in matter and form, which constitute the essence of a sacrament, it is beyond doubt certain that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, seeing that the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not entered therein through the gate of baptism. For, what have I, saith the apostle, to do to judge them that are without? (m) It is otherwise with those who are of the household of the faith, whom Christ our Lord has once, by the laver of baptism, made the members of His own body; for such, if they should afterwards have defiled themselves by any crime, He would no longer have them cleansed by a repetition of baptism--that being nowise lawful in the Catholic Church-but be placed as criminals before this tribunal; that, by the sentence of the priests, they might be freed, not once, but as often as, being penitent, they should, from their sins committed, flee thereunto. Furthermore, one is the fruit of baptism, and another that of penance. For, by baptism putting on Christ, (n) we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins : unto which newness and entireness, however, we are no ways able to arrive by the sacrament of Penance, without many tears and great labours on our parts, the divine justice demanding this; so that penance has justly been called by holy Fathers a laborious kind of baptism. (o) And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after baptism, necessary unto salvation ; as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.
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    And then please consider what Pope Julius said in Session XIV; chapter IV, On Contrition. He was speaking about both sacraments, Justification and Penance and the distinctions there of.  Pope Julius, had another easy and perfect opportunity to incorporate "desire", with the laver of baptism, but the word "desire", is nowhere to be found, in chapter IV, concerning baptism.  In fact, Pope Julius, opens chapter IV, clearly defining Contrition and its attributes, with one, who has fallen after baptism!  
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    This is incredibly important to understand and admit, when going forward, in chapter IV, of Session XIV.
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    "Contrition, which holds the first place amongst the aforesaid acts of the penitent … in one who has fallen after baptism" …
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    Pope Julius, from that point, goes on in a description of the requirements of the penitent.  And then Pope Julius, specifically introduces and incorporates the word "desire" with the sacrament of Penance.  He said that a man is reconciled with God, if he has perfect contrition, and the desire for receiving the sacrament of Penance, before actually going before a priest, to physically receive it, i.e. performing the action of.  He goes on to describe imperfect contrition, unto conclusion.  In chapter IV, there is nothing there attributed to baptism and the desire of.  
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    CHAPTER IV.
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    On Contrition.
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    Contrition, which holds the first place amongst the aforesaid acts of the penitent, is a sorrow of mind, and a detestation for sin committed, with the purpose of not sinning for the future. (r) This movement of contrition was at all times necessary for obtaining the pardon of sins; and, in one who has fallen after baptism, it then at length prepares for the remissions of sins, when it is united with confidence in the divine mercy, and with the desire of performing the other things which are required for rightly receiving this sacrament. Wherefore the holy Synod declares, that this contrition contains not only a cessation from sin, and the purpose and the beginning of a new life, but also a hatred of the old, (H) agreeably to that saying; Cast away from you all your iniquities, wherein you have transgressed, and make to yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. (t) And assuredly he who has considered those cries of the saints; To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee, (v) I have laboured in my groaning, every night I will wash my bed, (w) I will recount to thee all my years, in the bitterness of my soul, (x) and others of this kind, will easily understand that they flowed from a certain vehement hatred of their past life, and from an exceeding detestation of sins. The Synod teaches moreover, that, although it sometimes happen that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament be actually received, the said reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament which is included therein. And as to that imperfect contrition, which is called attrition, because that it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, It declares that if, with the hope of pardon, it exclude the wish to sin, (y) it not only does not make a man a hypocrite, and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Ghost, --who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but only moves him, --whereby the penitent being assisted prepares a way for himself unto justice. And although this (attrition) cannot of itself, without the sacrament of penance, conduct the sinner to justification, yet does it dispose him to obtain the grace of God in the sacrament of Penance. For, smitten profitably with this fear, the Ninivites, at the preaching of Jonas, did fearful penance and obtained mercy from the Lord. Wherefore falsely do some calumniate Catholic writers, as if they had maintained that the sacrament of Penance confers grace without any good motion on the part of those who receive it: a thing which the Church of God never taught, or thought: and falsely also do they assert that con-trition is extorted and forced, not free and voluntary.
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    Please look how, Session XIV, CANON II, further supports the clear and distinct, separate natures of the two sacraments, Justification and Penance.
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    PENANCE
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    Session XIV, CANON II.--If any one, confounding the sacraments, saith that baptism is itself the sacrament of Penance, as though these two Sacraments were not distinct, and that therefore Penance is not rightly called a second plank after shipwreck; let him be anathema.
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    **The only reason that you find the word "desire" in Session VI, chapter 4, is because you are dealing with the impious, those above the age of reason i.e. adults.  In truth, desire, necessarily, did not need to be there, because everyone commonly knows that in order for an action to have taken place, it must have originated in the mind i.e. desire, the thought.  This is a self-evident principle!  Quite honestly, I believe God allowed that word "desire" to be there, to weed out the good from the bad.  [1 Corinthians 11:19]
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    Furthermore, the last words of Session IV, chapter 4 concludes with this; "as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
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    And then followed with the Canons for Session VI.  Please notice that Session VI, Canons XII,  XIV says that believing alone, or confidence alone, without the work done, the thought, the desire, is anathematized.
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    JUSTIFICATION
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    Session VI, CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
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    Session VI, CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.  
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    Please take notice, carefully, Session VII, Canon II, mentions that anyone who denies the absolute necessity of water baptism, in favor to and reducing it to some sort of metaphor, a word, for instances,  like "desire", is anathematized.
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    METAPHOR.  a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
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    ON BAPTISM
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    Session VII, CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
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    Session VII, CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
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    And finally because of the exact and full definition of Pope Julius III on Justification and Penance, it is absolutely clear, that what Pope Paul III said, regarding Session VII; Canon IV, on the sacraments in general, the word desire is specifically attributed to Penance but also with a description of disposition of the impious concerning, Justification.
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    ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL
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    Session VII, CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
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    This conclusion is also supported by the fact that desire, is not included in the causes for Justification, in Session VI, chapter 7.
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    CHAPTER VII.
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    What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
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    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
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    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
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    For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
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    And so it is, desire, faith alone, is not a cause, it can do nothing, in and of itself, it is just a description of disposition, the action and completion of baptism, must be performed!
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    "As it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." [John 3:5]
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    Sincerely,
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    Freedom
    And a very reasonable and easily understood exposition of the Christian doctrine concerning these matters it is. Who would deny it? Who would argue against it?