Author Topic: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?  (Read 6376 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
« Reply #300 on: November 10, 2017, 11:53:45 AM »
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  • Logic says that God does not command impossibilities. If a person is of good will, God can preserve him (through His mercy) to receive the Sacrament of Baptism. For although you believe in God's mercy (as I do), you deny His justice and His power.
    You may be correct in that God can certainly preserve him, and I agree He can and has. 
    That would be God exception to His rule, and according to others of your beliefs, they deny God's exceptions to His rules, if you are one who does not deny His exception then you would have to consider that the person with Faith is favored by God if they should pass away suddenly but had every intention of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism because what comes first, grace or mercy?  
     
    This is why murder cries out to God for vengeance since murder interrupts the plan of God for a particular person.
    People die when God had other plans for them to live. 
    There is so much that we really don't know but it is important to stay with what the Church teaches and not blame Modernist from centuries ago for inserting things in writings that you don't agree with.  Have a little Faith in the Holy Ghost and the teachings of the Baltimore Catechism and other teachings like Trent.  "Or desire"!

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #301 on: November 10, 2017, 11:55:15 AM »
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  • I just did ... the very quote to which you're responding.
    Clever way of wiggling out!  :laugh2:  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #302 on: November 10, 2017, 12:17:37 PM »
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  • Clever way of wiggling out!  :laugh2:  

    Evidently you're just not good at reading.  Would you like me to re-paste it for you?

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #303 on: November 10, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
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  • No, just explain what you are trying to say in simpler terms, give me examples.  

    Maybe I am just slow today but I want to know exactly how I am guilty of denying the Mercy of God, this is serious to me, I am sincere in asking.  

    Leaving for Mass right now and will talk to God about this.  Yes, I am worried, I don't agree with you but do respect you.  

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #304 on: November 10, 2017, 12:31:33 PM »
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  • You may be correct in that God can certainly preserve him, and I agree He can and has.
    That would be God exception to His rule, and according to others of your beliefs, they deny God's exceptions to His rules, if you are one who does not deny His exception then you would have to consider that the person with Faith is favored by God if they should pass away suddenly but had every intention of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism because what comes first, grace or mercy?  
    Even a catechumen does not have salvific faith. Catechumens BEG for the faith that gives life everlasting. This supernatural faith is infused through the Sacrament. So when you say "the person with faith" understand that this is a merely human faith which is more accurately expressed as "belief". This person you described may be predisposed for justification (if he is truly sorry for his past sins), but that is all. To be justified, he must be BORN AGAIN. BOD does not produce this effect (regeneration) according to its most celebrated proponents. This fact undermines their own opinion (unbeknownst to them) and you.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #305 on: November 10, 2017, 01:11:01 PM »
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  • ... exceptions to God's rules, like LYING, and engaging in SELF-CONTRADICTION.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #306 on: November 10, 2017, 02:18:44 PM »
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  • John 1:12-13  [12] But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. [13] Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    In case any BODers want to falsely argue that the sense of the words "not of blood" is that of "not of a bloodline" or some other falsity, there is proof positive that when the Latin word in John 1:13 "sanguinibus" is used in Scripture, the sense is always that of BLOOD BEING SHED or BLOOD SHED. So an accurate understanding of John 1:13 is...

    Who, not of blood (being shed), not of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God are born. (Jo 1:13)

    Note the examples of Scripture below. In each case of the word "sanguinibus" there is a reference to blood shed...

    Multiplicatae sunt infirmitates eorum, postea acceleraverunt. Non congregabo conventicula eorum de sanguinibus; nec memor ero nominum eorum per labia mea. (Ps 15:4)

    Their infirmities were multiplied: afterward they made hast. I will not assemble their conventicles of blood: neither will I be mindful of their names by my lips. (Ps 15:4)



    Libera me de sanguinibus, Deus, Deus salutis meae, et exsultabit lingua mea justitiam tuam. (Ps. 50:16)

    Deliver me from bloods o God, the God of my salvation: and my tongue shall exult thy justice. (Ps. 50:16)



    Et effuderunt sanguinem innocentem, sanguinem filiorum suorum et filiarum suarum, quas sacrificaverunt sculptilibus Chanaan. Et infecta est terra in sanguinibus, (Ps 105:38 )

    And they shed innocent blood: the blood of their sons and of their daughters, which they sacrificed to the sculptures of Chanaan. And the land was infected with blood, (Ps 105:38 )



    Et dixit ad me: Iniquitas domus Israel et Juda magna est nimis valde, et repleta est terra sanguinibus, et civitas repleta est aversione: dixerunt enim: Dereliquit Dominus terram, et Dominus non videt. (Ez 9:9)

    And he said to me: The iniquity of the house of Israel, and Juda is exceeding great, and the land is replenished with blood, and the city is replenished with aversion: for they have said: Our Lord hath forsaken the earth, and our Lord seeth not. (Ez 9:9)



    Audite hoc, principes domus Jacob, et judices domus Israel, qui abominamini judicium, et omnia recta pervertitis : qui aedificatis Sion in sanguinibus, et Jerusalem in iniquitate. (Mic 3:9-10)


    Hear this ye Princes of the house of Jacob, and ye  judges of the house of Israel: which abhor judgment, and pervert all right things. Which build Sion in blood, and Jerusalem in iniquity. (Mic 3:9-10)


    Vae qui aedificat civitatem in sanguinibus, et praeparat urbem in iniquitate. (Hab 2:12)

    Woe to him that buildeth a city in bloods, and prepareth a city in iniquity. (Hab 2:12)



    Quia iniquitas Libani operiet te, et vastitas animalium deterrebit eos de sanguinibus hominum, et iniquitate terrae, et civitatis, et omnium habitantium in ea. (Hab:2:17)

    Because the iniquity of Libanus shall cover thee, and the wasting of the beasts shall terrify them for the bloods of men, and the iniquity of the land, and of the city, and of all that dwell therein. (Hab:2:17)


    Qui non ex sanguinibus, neque ex voluntate carnis, neque ex voluntate viri, sed ex Deo nati sunt. (Jo 1:13)
     
    Who, not of blood, not of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God are born. (Jo 1:13)


    This completely refutes BOB.  BOD is refuted where it says "nor of the will of man".

    Good post Freedom. Unfortunately, I don't think they will get it, however.  
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #307 on: November 11, 2017, 09:56:45 AM »
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  • .
    "there is proof positive that when the Latin word in John 1:13 "sanguinibus" is used in Scripture, the sense is always that of BLOOD BEING SHED or BLOOD SHED. So an accurate understanding of John 1:13 is…"
    .
    Thank you so much for the added truth and the icing on the cake as to what you provided, I will cite a dogma, ex cathedra, from Pope Eugene IV.
    .
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
    Good supporting dogma that rejects BOB and BOD. Some may argue that it doesn't apply to Catechumens, since Pope Eugene doesn't specify them. Yet Catechumens do not belong to the ecclesiastical body, and Pope Eugene considers those who do not belong to the ecclesiastical body to be OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH among the pagans, Jews etc. Not even supporters of BOB and BOD argue that catechumens are part of the ecclesiastical body. Nor can Catechumens PERSERVERE in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church, since their supposed "baptism" would occur at the very moment of death. This is why the early Church never prayed or offered Masses for them...

    A certain statement in the funeral oration of St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II has been brought forward as a proof that the Church offered sacrifices and prayers for catechumens who died before baptism. There is not a vestige of such a custom to be found anywhere. St. Ambrose may have done so for the soul of the catechumen Valentinian, but this would be a solitary instance, and it was done apparently because he believed that the emperor had had the baptism of desire. The practice of the Church is more correctly shown in the canon (xvii) of the Second Council of Braga: "Neither the commemoration of Sacrifice [oblationis] nor the service of chanting [psallendi] is to be employed for catechumens who have died without the redemption of baptism." (Catholic Encyclopedia-Baptism)

    This would be a grave error if there were a chance that those who died as Catechumens could attain salvation. We must hold to dogma and tradition as opposed to "the speculators" whose opinions have crept into fallible Catholic sources.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #308 on: November 13, 2017, 08:49:39 AM »
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  • Quote
    Quote from: Ladislaus on November 09, 2017, 02:24:34 PM
    Quote
     At best you can argue that people can receive Baptism in voto.

    Saying that on can recieve Baptism in voto, denies this Canon of Trent below. Baptism in voto, is Baptism without true and natural water, according to your definition.


    Quote
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    I think you missed this from earlier in the thread. Also, are you of the opinion that an error or heresy must be specifically addressed to the letter, in order for it to be heresy or error?
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #309 on: November 13, 2017, 09:02:47 AM »
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  • Saying that on can recieve Baptism in voto, denies this Canon of Trent below. Baptism in voto, is Baptism without true and natural water, according to your definition.

    >> I don't think that's what he's saying man, not exactly.

    I think you missed this from earlier in the thread. Also, are you of the opinion that an error or heresy must be specifically addressed to the letter, in order for it to be heresy or error?

    >> If so, which seems all but metaphysically certain, then that seems by far to be the vast majority postion, at least "here"; they'll say "no" in one line, then proceed to contradict themselves the next, then shuck and jive by saying you've failed to make a distinction, or invoke "context" or some like rubbish.

    >> Sound familiar
    ? It should, for it is the standard weasel word maneuverings of heretics. Save yourself further headaches, and knock the dust off; you're wasting your time. We aren't required to engage in Chinese gymnastics in avoiding rashness; that's the one of the signs that you're dealing with the bad willed again.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #310 on: November 13, 2017, 09:13:22 AM »
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  • >> I don't think that's what he's saying man, not exactly.

    How is Baptism in voto not contrary to that Canon?
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #311 on: November 13, 2017, 09:45:16 AM »
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  • >> I don't think that's what he's saying man, not exactly.

    How is Baptism in voto not contrary to that Canon?
    I didn't say that.

    What I think is being said by him is not common but not unheard of; it comes in a couple to a few forms but it boils down to the sacrament having some kind of durable entity/existence. Remember that email I sent you?

    Basically this is saying that the effects of the sacrament are "somehow" (very rough statement. unless you want a handful of Tylenol, skip the specs) received via the sacrament (i.e. it "somehow" has durable entity) even though the individual isn't actually administered the sacrament. 

    "Oh what a tangled web..." You hittin' the liquid yet?

    Remember also what I was asking about how does a dumb-as-dirt, Forrest Gump, parishioner possibly not only practice, but preach, and profess this kind of, "4 isn't 4 in the world of imaginary numbers".... "faith"?

    Yeah, this kind of thing is what I was thinking of.

    It's just more Yeshiva think poison man. It's straight up Jew. 

    Stand by for people attempting to apply hindsight for those in the past...

    I'm just doing this because you're not one of the walking dead.

    I don't care what else the Lads of the world have to say, at least if it's the same old shit that I could site scrub and read yet again as my head is poised over the puke bucket.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #312 on: November 13, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »
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  • I didn't say that.

    What I think is being said by him is not common but not unheard of; it comes in a couple to a few forms but it boils down to the sacrament having some kind of durable entity/existence. Remember that email I sent you?

    Basically this is saying that the effects of the sacrament are "somehow" (very rough statement. unless you want a handful of Tylenol, skip the specs) received via the sacrament (i.e. it "somehow" has durable entity) even though the individual isn't actually administered the sacrament.

    I get what you're saying but Lad explains it a bit differently. He says that in order for BOD to not be heretical, one has to say the actual Sacrament is received in voto. This is the idea that not only are the effects received, but also the actual Sacrament itself in voto. He says this is how the necessity of the Sacrament is NOT denied.  The problem is that in order to receive the effects and the Sacrament itself, water is necessary as per the Canon of Trent. Therefore, even though the Sacrament is not denied, it is saying that water is not necessary for Baptism. This is explicitly contrary to the Canon. This is why I'm asking him this question. Am I missing something? Is not saying that the Sacrament can be received in voto, i.e. without water, twisting the words of the Lord in Scripture and contrary to the Canon?
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #313 on: November 13, 2017, 10:19:40 AM »
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  • I get what you're saying but Lad explains it a bit differently. He says that in order for BOD to not be heretical, one has to say the actual Sacrament is received in voto. This is the idea that not only are the effects received, but also the actual Sacrament itself in voto. He says this is how the necessity of the Sacrament is NOT denied.  The problem is that in order to receive the effects and the Sacrament itself, water is necessary as per the Canon of Trent. Therefore, even though the Sacrament is not denied, it is saying that water is not necessary for Baptism. This is explicitly contrary to the Canon. This is why I'm asking him this question. Am I missing something? Is not saying that the Sacrament can be received in voto, i.e. without water, twisting the words of the Lord in Scripture and contrary to the Canon?
    I guess man; that's the problem with stories, for "the tale grows in the telling" and the specifics shift. In other words, inconsistency is to be expected. 

    Maybe he said it; I don't care any more. If someone would like to give a compelling REASON to, then send it.

    Otherwise, I'm tired, clock's ticking, and the votive's blazing.

    "I'm dyin' here!", as "you" are there.
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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