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Author Topic: Why I don't engage Feeneyites  (Read 1678 times)

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Offline angelusmaria

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Why I don't engage Feeneyites
« on: June 30, 2021, 09:18:27 PM »
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  • Pretty simple.  I have never entered more than a few words before a Feeneyite (or antiBODers, or "true Catholic as they view themselves) calls me a heretic, damned to hell, and so on.  One would think that with Saints and scholars and Magisterium that leaves room for unsettled questions, we would all agree that this particular question should prove common ground for agreeing that we are lacking a legitimate pope; but instead it serves further division.  I don't and won't debate BOD, it is settled for me, and am tired of recycling the same arguments that seldom convince either party.  But the stance of every Feeneyite I have ever been engaged by has always been offensive to charity and to the spiritual work of instructing the ignorant (as they see others).  
    please pray for me


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #1 on: June 30, 2021, 09:29:27 PM »
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  • But the stance of every Feeneyite I have ever been engaged by has always been offensive to charity and to the spiritual work of instructing the ignorant (as they see others).  

    That should tell you everything you need to know about their position.

    To quote St. Paul:
    Quote
    If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; - 1 Cor. 13:1-5.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #2 on: July 01, 2021, 04:48:53 AM »
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  • That should tell you everything you need to know about their position.

    To quote St. Paul:

    Actually, what tells you literally everything you need to know about their position, to quote St. Paul:


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    One Lord, one faith, One Baptism. - Eph 4:5

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #3 on: July 01, 2021, 06:25:48 AM »
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  • This is the usual slur against "Feeneyites" (i.e. Catholics who believe the Church's dogmatic definitions).  Feeneyites do not hold that BoD is heretical, neither did Father Feeney himself.  He clearly characterized his rejection of BoD as an opinion.

    Either you were talking to "Dimondites" (not "Feeneyites"), or else you went on and in your purported defense of "BoD" ended up claiming that infidels and heretics could be saved.  You'll note that those are two different things.  We have a number of dogmatic Church definitions which clearly and unequivocally teach that heretics and infidels cannot be saved.  Many in pretending to defend "BoD" end up verbatim rejecting those dogmas or else applying a Modernist "hermeneutic" to them and refusing to accept them according to the meaning with which they were originally defined.  In their defense of BoD, they actually do slide into heresies, Pelagianism and the denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  St. Pius X's Holy Office answered that Catholics must unequivocally and umanbiguously state that infidels are damned, not that "well, somehow if they do [this or that] they can be saved."

    I've told people repeatedly that if they want to believed in BoD as St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus defined it, as pertaining only to those who have the bare minimums required for CATHOLIC faith (belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) [St. Robert limited it strictly to Catechumens since they belonged in a sense already to the VISIBLE Church.], then more power to you.  Carry on.  But try to tell me that "Hindus in Tibet" can be saved, and yeah I'll call that out as heresy every single time.

    Nor would a "Feeneyite" say that you're "damned to hell" even if you believe in one of these objectively heretical interpretations of BoD, due to the fact that on account of the confusion of the times, the spread of this error, many are confused on this subject (even Archbishop Lefebvre).  That's a decidedly and uniquely "Dimondite" thing to say.  I've actually called them out for being schismatic due to that attitude.

    Xaiver, to this day, after having been repeatedly corrected on the matter, continues to throw the slur of "Dimondite" out there against Feeneyites whenever he gets angry.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #4 on: July 01, 2021, 10:03:53 AM »
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  • Pretty simple.  I have never entered more than a few words before a Feeneyite (or antiBODers, or "true Catholic as they view themselves) calls me a heretic, damned to hell, and so on.  One would think that with Saints and scholars and Magisterium that leaves room for unsettled questions, we would all agree that this particular question should prove common ground for agreeing that we are lacking a legitimate pope; but instead it serves further division.  I don't and won't debate BOD, it is settled for me, and am tired of recycling the same arguments that seldom convince either party.  But the stance of every Feeneyite I have ever been engaged by has always been offensive to charity and to the spiritual work of instructing the ignorant (as they see others).  
    So-called BOD defines nothing, it could be that you limit the belief to the explicit desire of the catechumen like St. Thomas, or it could be that you believe that non-Catholics, like Jєωs, Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (actually they believe that anyone can be saved if they are "good" people), which 99% of of BODers who start threads like yours, start them because that is what they want to believe (a false BOD). So, until you define your flavor of BOD, you may indeed be a heretic on this matter. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #5 on: July 01, 2021, 11:47:33 AM »
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  • So-called BOD defines nothing, it could be that you limit the belief to the explicit desire of the catechumen like St. Thomas, or it could be that you believe that non-Catholics, like Jєωs, Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (actually they believe that anyone can be saved if they are "good" people), which 99% of of BODers who start threads like yours, start them because that is what they want to believe (a false BOD). So, until you define your flavor of BOD, you may indeed be a heretic on this matter.

    Right, it seems that there are a thousand flavors of "BoD" out there ... which is prima facie evidence that it's not been defined by the Church.  Some have even tried to apply it to baptized Protestants.

    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #6 on: July 01, 2021, 07:14:20 PM »
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  • This is the usual slur against "Feeneyites" (i.e. Catholics who believe the Church's dogmatic definitions).  Feeneyites do not hold that BoD is heretical, neither did Father Feeney himself.  He clearly characterized his rejection of BoD as an opinion.

    Either you were talking to "Dimondites" (not "Feeneyites"), or else you went on and in your purported defense of "BoD" ended up claiming that infidels and heretics could be saved.  You'll note that those are two different things.  We have a number of dogmatic Church definitions which clearly and unequivocally teach that heretics and infidels cannot be saved.  Many in pretending to defend "BoD" end up verbatim rejecting those dogmas or else applying a Modernist "hermeneutic" to them and refusing to accept them according to the meaning with which they were originally defined.  In their defense of BoD, they actually do slide into heresies, Pelagianism and the denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  St. Pius X's Holy Office answered that Catholics must unequivocally and umanbiguously state that infidels are damned, not that "well, somehow if they do [this or that] they can be saved."

    I've told people repeatedly that if they want to believed in BoD as St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus defined it, as pertaining only to those who have the bare minimums required for CATHOLIC faith (belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) [St. Robert limited it strictly to Catechumens since they belonged in a sense already to the VISIBLE Church.], then more power to you.  Carry on.  But try to tell me that "Hindus in Tibet" can be saved, and yeah I'll call that out as heresy every single time.

    Nor would a "Feeneyite" say that you're "damned to hell" even if you believe in one of these objectively heretical interpretations of BoD, due to the fact that on account of the confusion of the times, the spread of this error, many are confused on this subject (even Archbishop Lefebvre).  That's a decidedly and uniquely "Dimondite" thing to say.  I've actually called them out for being schismatic due to that attitude.

    Xaiver, to this day, after having been repeatedly corrected on the matter, continues to throw the slur of "Dimondite" out there against Feeneyites whenever he gets angry.
    Yes, every opponent to BOD that engaged me in person and online did take the Dimond route, and yes, they always berated the aberration of BOD that you outlined very well.  I have no opposition to what you wrote, and is exactly where I am coming from.  Thank you for your thoughtful reply
    please pray for me

    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #7 on: July 01, 2021, 07:18:59 PM »
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  • So-called BOD defines nothing, it could be that you limit the belief to the explicit desire of the catechumen like St. Thomas, or it could be that you believe that non-Catholics, like Jєωs, Muslim, Hindus, Buddhist can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards (actually they believe that anyone can be saved if they are "good" people), which 99% of of BODers who start threads like yours, start them because that is what they want to believe (a false BOD). So, until you define your flavor of BOD, you may indeed be a heretic on this matter.
    Not at all.  The "desire" part is very strict, and does not extend to infidels and pagans
    please pray for me


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #8 on: July 01, 2021, 07:56:32 PM »
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  • Yes, every opponent to BOD that engaged me in person and online did take the Dimond route, and yes, they always berated the aberration of BOD that you outlined very well.  I have no opposition to what you wrote, and is exactly where I am coming from.  Thank you for your thoughtful reply

    Yes, I myself was berated directly by the Dimond Brothers themselves, despite the fact that I do not believe in BoD, simply for holding that BoD (as taught by St. Thomas, St. Robert, and St. Alphonsus) are not heretical).

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #9 on: July 01, 2021, 08:55:47 PM »
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  • Yes, I myself was berated directly by the Dimond Brothers themselves, despite the fact that I do not believe in BoD, simply for holding that BoD (as taught by St. Thomas, St. Robert, and St. Alphonsus) are not heretical).
    I swear I could imagine them calling St. Alphonsus a heretic if he were alive today and not a saint.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #10 on: July 01, 2021, 09:03:56 PM »
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  • This is the usual slur against "Feeneyites" (i.e. Catholics who believe the Church's dogmatic definitions).  Feeneyites do not hold that BoD is heretical, neither did Father Feeney himself.  He clearly characterized his rejection of BoD as an opinion.

    Either you were talking to "Dimondites" (not "Feeneyites"), or else you went on and in your purported defense of "BoD" ended up claiming that infidels and heretics could be saved.  You'll note that those are two different things.  We have a number of dogmatic Church definitions which clearly and unequivocally teach that heretics and infidels cannot be saved.  Many in pretending to defend "BoD" end up verbatim rejecting those dogmas or else applying a Modernist "hermeneutic" to them and refusing to accept them according to the meaning with which they were originally defined.  In their defense of BoD, they actually do slide into heresies, Pelagianism and the denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  St. Pius X's Holy Office answered that Catholics must unequivocally and umanbiguously state that infidels are damned, not that "well, somehow if they do [this or that] they can be saved."

    I've told people repeatedly that if they want to believed in BoD as St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus defined it, as pertaining only to those who have the bare minimums required for CATHOLIC faith (belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) [St. Robert limited it strictly to Catechumens since they belonged in a sense already to the VISIBLE Church.], then more power to you.  Carry on.  But try to tell me that "Hindus in Tibet" can be saved, and yeah I'll call that out as heresy every single time.

    Nor would a "Feeneyite" say that you're "damned to hell" even if you believe in one of these objectively heretical interpretations of BoD, due to the fact that on account of the confusion of the times, the spread of this error, many are confused on this subject (even Archbishop Lefebvre).  That's a decidedly and uniquely "Dimondite" thing to say.  I've actually called them out for being schismatic due to that attitude.

    Xaiver, to this day, after having been repeatedly corrected on the matter, continues to throw the slur of "Dimondite" out there against Feeneyites whenever he gets angry.
    A lot of the issue is terminology. Even on this very forum there is a lot of latitude. There are people here who get very close to saying that those who hold to BOD in the same way Archbishop Lefebvre did are not only wrong, but likely or certain to be damned themselves.  Now I agree with you that I am not aware of any evidence that Father Feeney himself said something like this. And I'm near certain that, if the good priest were alive today, that we could no doubt have much more productive conversations with him than with a lot of people online.
    As someone who currently agrees more with archbishop Lefebvre on this issue, I don't mind discussing with people who hold to a "feeneyite"perspective, PROVIDED they are willing to have a conversation with me about the issue and not just jump towards shouts of heresy or lacking faith or whatever. But the reality is, even on this forum, I only get that about half the time. I do get it from you, so kudos for that, you've always been good to discuss with. There are others here who are not, others who are, others who are varying shades in between.  Of course, that doesn't just apply to this issue either. It is very common that people have certain blind spots, certain issues where they cannot discuss rationally, and they can still be good conversationalists when it comes to some issue other than whatever their pet peeve is.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #11 on: July 01, 2021, 09:11:38 PM »
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  • A lot of the issue is terminology. Even on this very forum there is a lot of latitude. There are people here who get very close to saying that those who hold to BOD in the same way Archbishop Lefebvre did are not only wrong, but likely or certain to be damned themselves.  Now I agree with you that I am not aware of any evidence that Father Feeney himself said something like this. And I'm near certain that, if the good priest were alive today, that we could no doubt have much more productive conversations with him than with a lot of people online.
    As someone who currently agrees more with archbishop Lefebvre on this issue, I don't mind discussing with people who hold to a "feeneyite"perspective, PROVIDED they are willing to have a conversation with me about the issue and not just jump towards shouts of heresy or lacking faith or whatever. But the reality is, even on this forum, I only get that about half the time. I do get it from you, so kudos for that, you've always been good to discuss with. There are others here who are not, others who are, others who are varying shades in between.  Of course, that doesn't just apply to this issue either. It is very common that people have certain blind spots, certain issues where they cannot discuss rationally, and they can still be good conversationalists when it comes to some issue other than whatever their pet peeve is.

    You’ve never disagreed with Ladislaus, without being called a heretic?

    Weird.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #12 on: July 01, 2021, 09:16:48 PM »
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  • It's mind blowing that some Catholics argue that the lack of baptism for salvation is Church teaching.       

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #13 on: July 01, 2021, 09:29:49 PM »
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  • You’ve never disagreed with Ladislaus, without being called a heretic?

    Weird.
    He'd consider my views materially heretical, but he doesn't do what the Dimond types do... I'll just leave it at that.

    Or at least with me he hasn't.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why I don't engage Feeneyites
    « Reply #14 on: July 01, 2021, 09:53:02 PM »
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  • I swear I could imagine them calling St. Alphonsus a heretic if he were alive today and not a saint.


    Yeah, the Redemptorist BOD position is interesting.

    But ruling on BOD wasn't St. Liguori's call.  He wasn't a Pope.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi