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Author Topic: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching  (Read 7719 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2017, 03:20:56 AM »
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  • You're contradicting one enslaved to contradiction, and is therefore completely impervious to reason.
    1)Here he is saying that the conversion doesn't even need to take place yet to be saved: "if you happened to die while on your path to conversion...you would have been saved". Contra EENS!* 2)He is also teaching that supernatural faith, perfect charity and perfect contrition CAN be attained not only without Baptism but even without conversion, but merely on your path to conversion!!! This is contra Dogma!** 3) Then he teaches us that God can command something (Baptism) but then waive that command as it is impossible. Also contra Catholic Teaching that God does not command impossibilities.***

    No Catholic saint, theologian, father etc... ever taught this.

    * Florence Sess.8:"Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith..."
    **Trent Sess.6 Ch.7: "This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church...previously to the sacrament of Baptism"
    ***Trent Sess.6 Ch.11:"For God does not command impossibilities..."
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #136 on: August 21, 2017, 12:18:36 PM »
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  • If you were confronted with martyrdom before having the chance to be baptized you would have to deny Christ in order to get baptized.  This shows the brutal insanity of those who insist on the novel "No Salvation Apart from Water" heresy.   :facepalm:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #137 on: August 21, 2017, 02:19:45 PM »
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  • Makes sense.

    If Saint Paul had died before being baptized by Ananias, it doesn't make sense of course that he would have gone to Hell before he had a chance to be baptized, though those who are against Bod might claim that Saint Paul would have gone to Hell.
    That is exactly right.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #138 on: August 21, 2017, 02:22:46 PM »
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  • 1)Here he is saying that the conversion doesn't even need to take place yet to be saved: "if you happened to die while on your path to conversion...you would have been saved". Contra EENS!* 2)He is also teaching that supernatural faith, perfect charity and perfect contrition CAN be attained not only without Baptism but even without conversion, but merely on your path to conversion!!! This is contra Dogma!** 3) Then he teaches us that God can command something (Baptism) but then waive that command as it is impossible. Also contra Catholic Teaching that God does not command impossibilities.***

    No Catholic saint, theologian, father etc... ever taught this.

    * Florence Sess.8:"Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith..."
    **Trent Sess.6 Ch.7: "This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church...previously to the sacrament of Baptism"
    ***Trent Sess.6 Ch.11:"For God does not command impossibilities..."
    Point granted.  I should have worded "before becoming an actual member".  Though in a certain sense the conversion process starts when you gain the actual grace to consider the Catholic Faith and ends when you join the Catholic Church, the point when you can be saved is after you have obtained a supernatural faith while at the same time having the supernatural virtue of charity, any time from this point until becoming a baptized member of the Catholic Church one can be saved within the Church.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #139 on: August 21, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
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  • @JohnAnthonyMarie

    I already answered your question and yes you are ignoring the infallible Teachings of the Church. I quoted Florence and Trent and you give me commentary on canons!  

    Do i reject that canon? Yes, there are other errors in that Code of Canon Law as well.

    1. It's a Dogma ALL who die in mortal sin or original sin go to Hell.

    2. Read what i wrote earlier, you have to make a decision, no way around this:

    Thus, the 1917 Code’s proposition in canon 737 that Baptism is necessary "at least in desire" for salvation is not binding on the universal Church or protected by infallibility.  Regarding its law in canon 1239, that unbaptized catechumens can be given Christian burial, this contradicts the entire Tradition of the Catholic Church for 1900 years on whether unbaptized persons can be given Christian burial.


    Since the time of Jesus Christ and throughout all of history, the Catholic Church universally refused ecclesiastical burial to catechumens who died without the Sacrament of Baptism, as The Catholic Encyclopedia admits:
     
    The Catholic Encyclopedia, 'Baptism,' Volume 2, 1907: "A certain statement in the funeral oration of St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II has been brought forward as a proof that the Church offered sacrifices and prayers for catechumens who died before baptism. There is not a vestige of such a custom to be found anywhere... The practice of the Church is more correctly shown in the canon (xvii) of the Second Council of Braga (572 AD): 'Neither the commemoration of Sacrifice [oblationis] nor the service of chanting [psallendi] is to be employed for catechumens who have died without baptism.'"
     
         This is the law of the Catholic Church since the beginning and throughout all of history. So, since this issue is tied to the Faith and not merely disciplinary, either the Catholic Church was wrong since the time of Christ for refusing ecclesiastical burial for catechumens who died without baptism or the 1917 Code is wrong for granting it to them. It is either one or the other, because the 1917 Code directly contradicts the Traditional and constant law of the Catholic Church for nineteen centuries on this point which is tied to the Faith.  The answer is, obviously, that the 1917 Code is wrong and not infallible, and the Catholic Church’s law for all of history refusing ecclesiastical burial to catechumens is right. Also, it is interesting to note that the Latin version of the 1917 Code contains many footnotes to traditional popes, councils, etc. to show from where certain canons were derived. Canon 1239.2 on giving ecclesiastical burial to unbaptized catechumens has no footnote, not to any pope, previous law or council, simply because there is nothing in Tradition which supports it!!    
     
    You are being totally dishonest like most modernist heretics. 'B.o.d' and 'b.o.b' is simply a doctrine of man. Are you aware St.Robert Bellarmine taught 'b.o.d' but said unbaptized catechumens are not part of the Church?

    Are you aware St. Alphonsus admits that 'baptism of desire' does not take away the temporal punishment due to sin.This is a devastating problem for 'b.o.d' and its supporters.


    ST. ALPHONSUS ADMITS THAT 'BAPTISM OF DESIRE' DOES NOT PROVIDE THE GRACE OF SPIRITUAL REBIRTH/BAPTISM, WHICH TRENT SAYS EVERYONE MUST HAVE TO BE JUSTIFIED.


    St. Alphonsus: "Baptism of blowing is perfect conversion to God through contrition or through the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire of the true river of baptism whose place it supplies (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) with respect to the remission of the guilt, but not with respect to the character to be imprinted, nor with respect to the full liability of the punishment to be removed: it is called of blowing because it is made through the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is called a blowing." (St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, n. 96)

    St. Alphonsus says that 'b.o.d' does not remove the temporal punishment due to sin. According to his explanation, someone who dies with a 'b.o.d' may need to spend time in Purgatory. That’s actually a fatal problem for the 'theory' because the Church has dogmatically defined that the grace of baptism is not merely the remission of the guilt of sin, but also the remission of all temporal punishment due to sin.

    Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, "Exultate Deo," Nov. 22, 1439: "Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every fault, original and actual, and also of every punishment which is owed for the fault itself. Therefore to the baptized no satisfaction is to be enjoined for past sins; but dying, before they commit any fault, they immediately attain the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God."

    ALL THOSE BORN AGAIN HAVE EVERY PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN REMITTED

    Likewise, the Council of Trent’s Decree on Original Sin solemnly defined that all those who are ‘born again’ have all the guilt and every punishment due to sin removed.  This grace of being 'born again' renders the recipients ‘immaculate’ and it leaves in them nothing that could retard their entrance into Heaven.

    Council of Trent, Sess. 5, Original Sin, #5, Ex Cathedra: "If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven."

    As we can see, it’s a Dogma that the grace of baptism/spiritual rebirth/being ‘born again’ provides not only justification and the remission of the guilt of sin, but also the remission of every punishment due to sin.

    TO BE JUSTIFIED EVERYONE MUST BE ‘BORN AGAIN’ – A GRACE WHICH INCLUDES THE REMISSION OF EVERY TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN

    Furthermore, it’s de fide definita that UNLESS YOU RECEIVE THE GRACE OF SPIRITUAL REBIRTH/BEING ‘BORN AGAIN’ YOU CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED!

    Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: "But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, SO UNLESS THEY WERE BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST THEY WOULD NEVER BE JUSTIFIED, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them."

    Is this becoming clear?

    I noticed you're defending invincible ignorance also, wow what a surprise! [sarcasm]

    It's interesting how the modernists who defend the demonic doctrine of invincible ignorance are actually the most ignorant of Church Teaching and Scripture.

    Pope Pius IX was simply wrong, people who accept 'b.o.d' and 'b.o.d' are some of the most selective people i have come across.

    Quick destruction of invincible ignorance:

      Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (#2), April 15, 1905: "And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: 'We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.'"

    Pope Gregory XVI, Probe Nostis (#6), Sept. 18, 1840: "We are thankful for the success of apostolic missions in America, the Indies, and other faithless lands... They search out those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death to summon them to the light and life of the Catholic religion... At length they snatch them from the devil’s rule, by the bath of regeneration and promote them to the freedom of God’s adopted sons."

    The great "Apostle of the Rocky Mountains," Fr. Pierre De Smet, who was the extraordinary missionary to the American Indians in the 19th century, was also convinced – with all the great Catholic missionaries before him – that all the Indians whom he did not reach would be eternally lost.

    Fr. De Smet, S.J., Jan. 26, 1838: "New priests are to be added to the Potawatomi Mission, and my Superior, Father Verhaegen gives me hope that I will be sent. How happy I would be could I spend myself for the salvation of so many souls, who are lost because they have never known truth!" [Fr. E. Laveille, S.J., The Life of Fr. De Smet, p. 80]

    St. Alphonsus: "See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost." [Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.]


    MANY MANY other quotes can be provided. Here is God The Holy Ghost:

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them."

    Psalms 78:6 "Pour out thy wrath upon the nations that have not known thee: and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name."

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."
    He "admits" in regard to the character not in regards to the remission of guilt which is what is necessary for salvation.  One with the character can be damned one in a state of sanctifying grace cannot.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #140 on: August 21, 2017, 02:30:11 PM »
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  • It's amazing that hardly any, if any, BODers/InIviners ever quote the entire paragraph of this FALLIBLE allocution to Cardinals. Here is the full text and the part they leave out in bold.
    Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem: For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.  

    1. Pope Pius IX is saying that the invincible ignorance will not save a person but that God does not find fault in this matter of their ignorance. This is unlike those who are culpable for their ignorance, they are at fault. It does not mean those individuals will not be damned for their other sins since there is no remission of sins outside the Church.
    2. In the section they never quote he clearly implies that while here on Earth, we are to believe that Baptism is necessary and to seek other avenues for salvation is not allowed discussion. So the supporters of salvific ignorance are disobeying the Pope when they further this point.
    3. The Doctors they love to quote are completely and explicitly against this. St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.” St. Alphonsus Liguori, Sermons (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”
    Anything put in the Acta by a valid Pope must be accepted by a Catholic.  Are you a Catholic?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #141 on: August 21, 2017, 02:35:09 PM »
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  • You're in denial.
     The 1917 CCL is NOT Catholic Teaching. You honestly reject what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Your authority is a commentary on Canon Law. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

    "Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord."
    Jeremiah 17:5

    "David was right in saying that all people lie. Mankind’s life on earth is a struggle and like the mountain dew that soon is gone, like the flower of the field that quickly withers. We mortals are so blind that out of such a multitude of people only a small portion know the true God, primarily in this part of the world, Europe, the Spaniards being the most faithful. Among those raised in the church, few confess the faith and many of them are in sin, so nineteen out of twenty parts of mankind live in darkness and blindness." [Colahan, The Visions of Sor María de Agreda p.53]
    The Church is infallible in canon law as it pertains to doctrine.  Of course disciplines can change:
    R. P. AUGUSTE-ALEXIS GOUPIL, S.J.
    LA RÈGLE DE LA FOI pg. 22: http://catholicapedia.net/Docuмents/cah ... oi_48p.pdf

    The Proximate Rule of Faith
    Infallibility of Church Discipline:

    37.- A. The Church is infallible in Her discipline.

    What is an example of a disciplinary law? They are not Divine ordinances, as for example the indissolubility of Holy Matrimony; rather ecclesiastical laws enacted by the authority of the Church; for example: The celibacy of the Clergy; the keeping of Sunday as a Holy Day. These laws are general laws as opposed to laws restricted to a particular country or province, as for example the keeping of certain feasts as holy days of obligation; rather, general or universal laws for the whole Church or at least for a branch of the Church; therefore the Code of Canon Law for the Latin rite is considered a universal law. 

    It is certain that the Church has the same authority to not only enact laws, but also to reform or abrogate these same laws; therefore all of Her laws can be modified.

    How does a disciplinary law participate in a dogmatic truth? A law, in itself, strictly speaking, is neither true nor false; it does not expressly affirm or deny anything; it orders or prohibits us from doing something. Therefore, it does not fall under a definition of the Magisterium; rather it belongs to the Church’s power of jurisdiction. Nonetheless, a disciplinary decree includes a dogmatic decree. For when the Church issues a law, She affirms that the law is just, which implies two conditions: a) That this law is in conformity with faith and morals of the Divine Law; consequently any doctrine touching faith or morals is included in that Ecclesiastical law, this law is infallibly true. Therefore if the Church commands that prayers should be offered for the departed; one can conclude infallibly that the prayers of the living are useful for the souls in Purgatory.

    b) In addition, that the above mentioned just law tends towards the good of the society. It is therefore impossible that a universal law of the Church should be harmful to the Christian society. We do not pretend to affirm that an ecclesiastical law which is generally good, cannot cause some particular inconveniences; we do however affirm that the common good is procured through this law, and that it offers more advantages than inconveniences. 

    We do not state that a Church law is the very best in each case, nor the most opportune, that is why it is permissible to respectfully seek its modification or even abrogation; but we affirm that as such, it is useful for the good of souls.

    Finally, its possible that a good law may result in causing harm to a particular individual who becomes guilty of infringing on the law; but this prejudice comes from the individuals malice, and not from the law itself, according to the words of St. Paul: “And I died. And the commandment that was ordained to life, the same was found to be unto death to me.” (Rom. 7.10).

    Proofs:
    From Sacred Scripture in the acts of the Apostles XV, 28, the Apostles issued a disciplinary law and they declared that it emanated from the Holy Ghost as well as themselves: “For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things.”
    Ecclessiastical Docuмents:

    The Council of Trent declares (Denzinger-954 Can. 7.): “ If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema.’’

    St. Thomas in the Summa responds to the arguments against the rites of the Mass by affirming that [IIIa q.LXXXIII, 5, sed contra]: On the contrary, The custom of the Church stands for these things: and the Church cannot err, since she is taught by the Holy Ghost. 

    Theological Reason: In the Church, the power of the Magisterium and that of government cannot be separated; one implies the other; it is the same individuals who teach and govern, and they teach because they govern (see n. 7). Thus the very same universal disciplinary law emmanates from the supreme power of jurisdiction which is infallible. As a consequence, a practical decree that would incluye a profession of error would be the equivalent of an erroneous doctrinal decree, which is impossible.

    Note.
    One can easily see that the present question belongs to the mixed object of the Magisterium. In effect, the fact that a disciplinary law is in concordance with the Divine rule of faith and morals, has a relation to the principal object (a revealed truth); that this same law is useful to the common good, is a question that belongs to the secondary object (a dogmatic fact). These together constitute the mixed object.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #142 on: August 21, 2017, 02:42:04 PM »
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  • It's amazing that hardly any, if any, BODers/InIviners ever quote the entire paragraph of this FALLIBLE allocution to Cardinals. Here is the full text and the part they leave out in bold.
    Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem: For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.  

    1. Pope Pius IX is saying that the invincible ignorance will not save a person but that God does not find fault in this matter of their ignorance. This is unlike those who are culpable for their ignorance, they are at fault. It does not mean those individuals will not be damned for their other sins since there is no remission of sins outside the Church.
    2. In the section they never quote he clearly implies that while here on Earth, we are to believe that Baptism is necessary and to seek other avenues for salvation is not allowed discussion. So the supporters of salvific ignorance are disobeying the Pope when they further this point.
    3. The Doctors they love to quote are completely and explicitly against this. St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.” St. Alphonsus Liguori, Sermons (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/allocution.htm
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #143 on: August 21, 2017, 02:44:15 PM »
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  • THE DOCTRINAL AUTHORITY OF PAPAL ALLOCUTIONS
    By Joseph Clifford Fenton
    from the
    American Ecclesiastical Review
    ( circa 1956, pp. 109-117)
         The papal allocution is a comparative newcomer among the important vehicles of the Holy Father's ordinary magisterium.  The first Sovereign Pontiff to employ the allocution extensively for doctrinal purposes was Pope Pius IX.  The first allocution cited in Denzinger's Enchiridion symbolorum is the Acerbissimum vobiscuм, delivered by Pope Pius IX in a Secret Consistory on Sept. 27, 1852.[1]

         Some indication of the frequency with which Pope Pius IX used allocutions to bring out important doctrinal truths may be gleaned from the fact that there are seventeen of these allocutions among the thirty-two sources from which the teachings of the famous Syllabus errorum were derived.  The Acerbissimum vobiscuм was one of these sources.  Like the "Acerbissimum," all of the other allocutions used in drawing up the "Syllabus" were delivered by the Holy Father in Secret Consistories.[2]

         Like Pope Pius IX, the present Holy Father [Pope Pius XII] has used the consistorial allocution as an important instrument of his ordinary magisterium.  To point to only two examples, during the course of the Marian Year of 1954 he issued doctrinal decisions of outstanding moment in the consistorial allocutions Si diligis and Magnificate Dominum.[3]  Pope Pius XII, however, has also made doctrinal statements of great importance in allocutions delivered to private groups, that is, to groups other than those which include the hierarchy.  Thus, for example, he has set forth some basic points of Catholic teaching about what should be the relation between the Church and the state in two allocutions, the Ci riesce[4] delivered to the National Convention of the "Unione dei Giuristi Italiani" on Dec. 6, 1953, and the Vous avez voulu,[5] spoken on Sept. 7, 1955, to the tenth annual Convention of the Historical Sciences.

         Despite the fact that there is nothing like an adequate treatment of the papal allocutions in existing theological literature, every priest, and particularly every professor of sacred theology, should know whether and under what circuмstances these allocutions addressed by the Sovereign Pontiffs to private groups are to be regarded as authoritative, as actual expressions of the Roman Pontiff's ordinary magisterium.  And, especially because of the tendency towards an unhealthy minimism current in this country and elsewhere in the world today, they should also know how doctrine is to be set forth in the allocutions and the other vehicles of the Holy Father's ordinary magisterium if it is to be accepted as authoritative.  The present brief paper will attempt to consider and to answer these questions.

         The first question to be considered is this: Can a speech addressed by the Roman Pontiff to a private group, a group which cannot in any sense be taken as representing either the Roman Church or the universal Church, contain doctrinal teaching authoritative for the universal Church?

         The clear and unequivocal answer to this question is contained in the Holy Father's encyclical letter Humani generis, issued Aug. 12, 1950.  According to this docuмent: "if, in their 'Acta' the Supreme Pontiffs take care to render a decision on a point that has hitherto been controverted, it is obvious to all that this point, according to the mind and will of these same Pontiffs, can no longer be regarded as a question theologians may freely debate among themselves."[6]

         Thus, in the teaching of the Humani generis, any doctrinal decision made by the Pope and included in his "Acta" are authoritative.  Now many of the allocutions made by the Sovereign Pontiff to private groups are included in the "Acta" of the Sovereign Pontiff himself, as a section of the Acta apostolicae sedis.  Hence, any doctrinal decision made in one of these allocutions that is published in the Holy Father's "Acta" is authoritative and binding on all the members of the universal Church.

         There is, according to the words of the Humani generis, an authoritative doctrinal decision whenever the Roman Pontiffs, in their "Acta," "de re hactenus controversa data opera sententiam ferunt."  When this condition is fulfilled, even in an allocution originally delivered to a private group, but subsequently published as part of the Holy Father's "Acta," an authoritative doctrinal judgment has been proposed to the universal Church.  All of those within the Church are obliged, under penalty of serious sin, to accept this decision.

         Occasionally we encounter some utterly misleading comment on the meaning of the expression "data opera" in this section of the text of the Humani generis.  In the excellent "Harper's Latin Dictionary" the expression "operam dare" is explained as meaning "to bestow care or pains on, to give attention to" something.  It should be quite clear that this does not add any new note to a pontifical doctrinal judgment or decision.  According to the terms of the tremendous responsibility he has received from Our Lord Himself, the Sovereign Pontiff is definitely expected to give special and outstanding attention to any doctrinal decision he gives at any time and in any way, when he speaks as Pope and uses either his solemn or his ordinary magisterium.  Hence, there is and there can be no such thing as a decision in the field of Catholic doctrine, given by the Pope acting in his public capacity, precisely as the pastor and the teacher of all Christians, which is not set down "data opera."

         There is an authoritative papal statement, according to the text of the Humani generis, whenever the Sovereign Pontiff takes the trouble to issue a decision on a point which has hitherto been controverted, and inserts that decision in his own "Acta."  Basically, such a decision is made in one of two ways.  When there is a real controversy, two contradictory and hence mutually exclusive resolutions of an individual question are being urged, one by one group, another by that group's opponents.  The Roman Pontiff issues an authoritative decision in that controversy in a positive way when he accepts and presents one of these opposing solutions as "doctrina catholica," or, in some cases, as "de fide" or as "doctrina certa."  There is a negative pontifical judgment when the Sovereign Pontiff repudiates one of the two opposing theses as teaching which it is sinful or rash to hold, or, in the case of an infallible definition, as heretical or erroneous.

         Now the questions may arise: is there any particular form which the Roman Pontiff is obliged to follow in setting forth a doctrinal decision in either the positive or the negative manner? Does the Pope have to state specifically and explicitly that he intends to issue a doctrinal decision on this particular point?  Is it at all necessary that he should refer explicitly to the fact that there has hitherto been a debate among theologians on the question he is going to decide?

         There is certainly nothing in the divinely established constitutional law of the Catholic Church which would in any way justify an affirmative response to any of these inquiries.  The Holy Father's doctrinal authority stems from the tremendous responsibility Our Lord laid upon him in St. Peter, whose successor he is.  Our Lord charged the Prince of the Apostles, and through him, all of his successors until the end of time, with the commission of feeding, of acting as a shepherd for, of taking care of, His lambs and His sheep.[7]  Included in that responsibility was the obligation, and, of course, the power, to confirm the faith of his fellow Christians.

         And the Lord said: "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.  But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren."[8]

         St. Peter had, and has in his successor, the duty and the power to confirm his brethren in their faith, to take care of their doctrinal needs.  Included in his responsibility is an obvious obligation to select and to employ the means he judges most effective and apt for the accomplishment of the end God has commissioned him to attain.  And in this era, when the printed word possesses a manifest primacy in the field of the dissemination of ideas, the Sovereign Pontiffs have chosen to bring their authoritative teaching, the doctrine in which they accomplish the work of instruction God has commanded them to do, to the people of Christ through the medium of the printed word in the published "Acta."

         The Humani generis reminds us that the doctrinal decisions set forth in the Holy Father's "Acta" manifestly are authoritative "according to the mind and will" of the Pontiffs who have issued these decisions.  Thus, wherever there is a doctrinal judgment expressed in the "Acta" of a Sovereign Pontiff, it is clear that the Pontiff understands that decision to be authoritative and wills that it be so.

         Now when the Pope, in his "Acta," sets forth as a part of Catholic doctrine or as a genuine teaching of the Catholic Church some thesis which has hitherto been opposed, even legitimately, in the schools of sacred theology, he is manifestly making a doctrinal decision.  This certainly holds true even when, in making his statement, the Pope does not explicitly assert that he is issuing a doctrinal judgment and, of course, even when he does not refer to the existence of a controversy or debate on the subject among theologians up until the time of his own pronouncement.  All that is necessary is that this teaching, hitherto opposed in the theological schools, be now set forth as the teaching of the Sovereign Pontiff, or as "doctrina catholica."

         Private theologians have no right whatsoever to establish what they believe to be the conditions under which the teaching presented in the "Acta" of the Roman Pontiff may be accepted as authoritative.  This is, on the contrary, the duty and the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff himself.  The present Holy Father has exercised that right and has done his duty in stating clearly that any doctrinal decision which the Bishop of Rome has taken the trouble to make and insert into his "Acta" is to be received as genuinely authoritative.

         In line with the teaching of the Humani generis, then, it seems unquestionably clear that any doctrinal decision expressed by the Sovereign Pontiff in the course of an allocution delivered to a private group is to be accepted as authoritative when and if that allocution is published by the Sovereign Pontiff as a part of his own "Acta."  Now we must consider this final question: What obligation is incuмbent upon a Catholic by reason of an authoritative doctrinal decision made by the Sovereign Pontiff and communicated to the universal Church in this manner?

         The text of the Humani generis itself supplies us with a minimum answer.  This is found in the sentence we have already quoted: "And if, in their 'Acta,' the Supreme Pontiffs take care to render a decision on a point that has hitherto been controverted, it is obvious to all that this point, according to the mind and will of these same Pontiffs, can no longer be regarded as a question theologians may freely debate among themselves."

         Theologians legitimately discuss and dispute among themselves doctrinal questions which the authoritative magisterium of the Catholic Church has not as yet resolved.  Once that magisterium has expressed a decision and communicated that decision to the Church universal, the first and the most obvious result of its declaration must be the cessation of debate on the point it has decided.  A man definitely is not acting and could not act as a theologian, as a teacher of Catholic truth, by disputing against a decision made by the competent doctrinal authority of the Mystical Body of Christ on earth.

         Thus, according to the clear teaching of the Humani generis, it is morally wrong for any individual subject to the Roman Pontiff to defend a thesis contradicting a teaching which the Pope, in his "Acta," has set forth as a part of Catholic doctrine.  It is, in other words, wrong to attack a teaching which, in a genuine doctrinal decision, the Sovereign Pontiff has taught officially as the visible head of the universal Church.  This holds true always an everywhere, even in those cases in which the Pope, in making his decision, did not exercise the plenitude of his apostolic teaching power by making an infallible doctrinal definition.

         The Humani generis must not be taken to imply that a Catholic theologian has completed his obligation with respect to an authoritative doctrinal decision made by the Holy Father and presented in his published "Acta" when he has merely refrained from arguing or debating against it.  

    The Humani generis reminded its readers that "this sacred magisterium ought to be the immediate and universal norm of truth for any theologian in matters of faith and morals."[9]  Furthermore, it insisted that the faithful are obligated to shun errors which more or less approach heresy, and "to follow the constitutions and decrees by which evil opinions of this sort have been proscribed and forbidden by the Holy See."[10]  In other words, the Humani generis claimed the same internal assent for declarations of the magisterium on matters of faith and morals which previous docuмents of the Holy See had stressed.

         We may well ask why the Humani generis went to the trouble of mentioning something as fundamental and rudimentary as the duty of abstaining from further debate on a point where the Roman Pontiff has already issued a doctrinal decision, and has communicated that decision to the Church universal by publishing it in his "Acta."  The reason is to be found in the context of the encyclical itself.  The Holy Father has told us something of the existing situation which called for the issuance of the "Humani generis."  This information is contained in the text of that docuмent.  The following two sentences show us the sort of condition the Humani generis was written to meet and to remedy:

         "And although this sacred magisterium ought to be the immediate and universal norm of truth on matters of faith and morals for any theologian, as the agency to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the entire deposit of faith - that is, the Sacred Scriptures and divine Tradition - to be guarded and defended and explained, still, the duty by which the faithful are obligated also to shun those errors which approach more or less to heresy, and therefore 'to follow the constitutions and decrees by which evil opinions of this sort have been proscribed and forbidden by the Holy See,' is sometimes ignored as if it did not exist.  What is said in encyclical letters of the Roman Pontiffs about the nature and constitution of the Church is habitually and deliberately neglected by some with the idea of giving force to a certain vague notion which they claim to have found in the ancient Fathers, especially the Greeks."[11]

         Six years ago, then, Pope Pius XII was faced with a situation in which some of the men who were privileged and obligated to teach the truths of sacred theology had perverted their position and their influence and had deliberately flouted the teachings of the Holy See about the nature and the constitution of the Catholic Church.  And, when he declared that it is wrong to debate a point already decided by the Holy Father after that decision has been published in his "Acta," he was taking cognizance of and condemning an existent practice.  There actually were individuals who were contradicting papal teachings.  They were so numerous and influential that they rendered the composition of the Humani generis necessary to counteract their activities.  These individuals were continuing to propose teachings repudiated by the Sovereign Pontiff in previous pronouncements.  The Holy Father, then, was compelled by these circuмstances to call for the cessation of debate among theologians on subjects which had already been decided by pontifical decisions published in the "Acta."

         The kind of theological teaching and writing against which the encyclical Humani generis was directed was definitely not remarkable for its scientific excellence.  It was, as a matter of fact, exceptionally poor from the scientific point of view.  The men who were responsible for it showed very clearly that they did not understand the basic nature and purpose of sacred theology.  For the true theologian the magisterium of the Church remains, as the Humani generis says, the immediate and universal norm of truth.  And the teaching set forth by Pope Pius IX in his Tuas libenter is as true today as it always has been.

         But when we treat of that subjection by which all Catholic students of speculative sciences are obligated in conscience so that they bring new aids to the Church by their writings, the men of this assembly ought to realize that it is not enough for Catholic scholars to receive and venerate the above-mentioned dogmas of the Church, but [they ought also to realize] that they must submit to the doctrinal decisions issued by the Pontifical Congregations and also to those points of doctrine which are held by the common and constant agreement of Catholics as theological truths and conclusions which are so certain that, even though the opinions opposed to them cannot be called heretical, they still deserve some other theological censure.[12]

         It is definitely the business of the writer in the field of sacred theology to benefit the Church by what he writes.  It is likewise the duty of the teacher of this science to help the Church by his teaching.  The man who uses the shoddy tricks of minimism to oppose or to ignore the doctrinal decisions made by the Sovereign Pontiff and set down in his "Acta" is, in the last analysis, stultifying his position as a theologian.

         The man who is privileged to teach the science of sacred theology should never allow himself to lose sight of the fact that he is one of those called in by the apostolic college to aid in a teaching work to which that apostolic college alone has been divinely commissioned.  The doctrine which the theologian is expected to teach clearly, accurately, and unequivocally is not some teaching which has been discovered by men, but rather the supernatural revelation of the Triune God.  The teacher of or writer in sacred theology is carrying out his task by the orders and under the direction of the apostolic magisterium itself.  He accomplishes his work successfully only in the measure that be whole-heartedly accepts the doctrinal decisions addressed to the universal Church by the visible head of the Church.
     
    Joseph Clifford Fenton
    The Catholic University of America
    Washington, D. C.
    ENDNOTES:

    [1] Denz., 1640.
    [2] The most important of these allocutions was the Singulari quadam, delivered on Dec. 9, 1854, the day after the solemn definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, to the Cardinals and Bishops gathered in Rome for the definition.
    [3] The Latin text and the English translation of the Si diligis are printed in The American Ecclesiastical Review, CXXXI, 2 (Aug., 1954), 127-37.  The English translation of the Magnificate Dominum is carried in AER, CXXXII, 1 (Jan., 1955), 52-63.  For a brief commentary on the Si diligis, cf. Fenton, The Papal Allocution 'Si diligis,' AER, CXXXI, 3 (Sept., 1954), 186-98.
    [4] The English translation of the Ci riesce was printed in AER, CXXX, 2 (Feb., 1954), 129-38.  The same issue of AER carries a brief commentary on this allocution.  Cf. Fenton, The Teachings of the 'Ci riesce,' ibid., 114-23.
    [5] The English translation of the allocution Vous avez voulu is printed in AER, CXXXIII, 5 (Nov., 1955), 340-51.  A commentary on one section of this allocution is carried in the same issue.  Cf. Fenton, The Holy Father's Statement on Relations between the Church and the State, ibid., 323-31.
    [6] Denz., 3013; AER, CXXIII, 5 (Nov., 1950), 389.
    [7] Cf. John, 21: 15-19.
    [8] Luke, 22:31 f.
    [9] Denz., 3013; AER, CXXIII, 5 (Nov., 1950), 388.
    [10] The words are quoted from the Vatican Council's [Vatican I] constitution Dei Filius, Denz., 1820.
    [11] Denz., 3013; AER, CXXIII, 5 (Nov., 1950), 388 f.
    [12] Denz., 1684.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #144 on: August 23, 2017, 08:41:00 AM »
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  • I accept this teaching by Pope Pius IX. All those who die in "invincible ignorance" will not be judged in that matter. It does not mean they will not be judged according to their other sins which can not be remitted outside the Catholic Church, which the "invincibly ignorant" are NOT a part of.
    It is quite true that one not guilty in that matter could be quite guilty in another.  That is a given.  But you would have difficulty finding an authoritative teach that would claim such a one MUST be guilty in a another matter.  But the Feeneyites cannot accept Catholic teaching, so they grovel and squirm, lie and deny.  You seem a bit above that however.  I do hope the Truth finds you.

    Take it in context he is talking about how there is now salvation outside the Church and then goes on to say:  

    Quote
    But, nevertheless, we must likewise hold it as certain that those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that [ignorance] be invincible, will never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord. Now, who is there who would arrogate to himself the power to indicate the extent of such [invincible] ignorance according to the nature and the variety of peoples, regions, talents, and so many other things? For really when, loosed from these bodily bonds, we see God as He is, we shall certainly understand with what intimate and beautiful a connection the divine mercy and justice are joined together. But, while we live on earth, weighed down by this mortal body that darkens the mind, let us hold most firmly, from Catholic doctrine, that there is one God, one faith, one baptism. It is wrong to push our inquiries further than this.

       For the rest, as the cause of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers to God that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ. And let us do all in our power to bring about the common salvation of men, for the hand of the Lord is not shortened and the gifts of heavenly grace will never be lacking to those who sincerely wish and pray to be comforted in this light. Truths of this kind must be deeply implanted in the minds of the faithful so that they may not be corrupted by the false doctrines that tend to encourage the religious indifference (doctrinis eo spectantibus, ut religionis foveant indifferentiam) which we see being spread abroad and strengthened to the ruination of souls. [Denz., 1646-48]

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #145 on: August 23, 2017, 08:46:30 AM »
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    This, then, is the teaching which Pope Pius IX insisted that the Bishops of the Catholic Church should give to their people, in order to keep out of the minds of those people the false doctrines which could ruin their spiritual lives. The Singulari Quadam brings out the following teachings much more clearly and explicitly than previous ecclesiastical declarations on the necessity of the Church for salavation [sic] had done.

    (1) It is a ruinous error to imagine that one can have grounds of hope that people now dead, and who had not entered into the Church in any way during the course of their lives, are saved.

    (2) The dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is in no way opposed to the truth that God is all-merciful and all-just.

    (3) The doctrine that no one is saved outside the Catholic Church is a truth revealed by God through Jesus Christ, and a truth which all men must believe with the assent of divine faith. It is a Catholic dogma.

    (4) Invincible ignorance, of the true Church or of anything else, is not considered by God as a sin. The dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church in no way implies that invincible ignorance is sinful.

    (5) It is an impious and deadly error to hold that salvation may be attained in any religion.

    (6) It is not within the field either of our competence or of our rights to search out the way in which God's mercy and His justice operate in any given case of a person ignorant of the true Church or of the true religion. We shall see how these divine attributes have operated in the light of the Beatific Vision itself.

    (7) It is the business of the Church to work and to pray that all men will attain salvation in the Church.

    [8] God is never outdone in generosity. The person who tries to come to Him will never be forsaken. As a matter of fact, the movement toward God, like all good things, originates from God Himself. Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #146 on: August 23, 2017, 11:18:09 AM »
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  • You are the one claiming the Pope is teaching "salvation outside the Church".
    You are the one that is lying.

    I make no such claim.  Provide the quote.  Feeneyites rely on lies, calumny and detraction to "defend" their heretical position.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #147 on: August 23, 2017, 11:42:35 AM »
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  • I understood this to mean that you believe that the Pope is now saying there is salvation outside the Church. This is what you said.
    If this is not what you meant it doesn't really matter. You are saying that invincible ignorance saves. The person doesn't know God, his laws or revelation, and has not been Sacramentally Baptized (which is where true justification begins) which couldn't be better definition for outside the Church.
    I am not saying that.  This is the classic feeneyite defense mechanism when they cannot logically defend their heresy. False accusation.  Ignorance by itself neither save or damns a man.  Nor water by itself.  But sanctifying grace.  Do you dare to disagree?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #148 on: August 23, 2017, 12:40:50 PM »
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  • So you don't deny that you were saying that the Pope is teaching that there is now salvation outside the Church?

    You're saying that one can receive sanctifying grace without all those things that I mentioned. How could a man, ignorant of all things Catholic, receive sanctifying grace, or perfect contrition/charity? Those things are meaningless without Faith which is only bestowed upon Baptism.

    St. Thomas says that such a person will be led to the Catholic faith if they are invincibly ignorant. You are saying a person can be saved without that faith. The Church has declared there is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Faithful. You make that a meaningless formula because the faithful are Baptized members of the Church.
    I do deny that.  I accept EENS.  It is indeed possible to be in a state of sanctifying grace apart from baptism when sacramental baptism is impossible.  Supernatural Faith and perfect charity is given to us by God.  He gives us the actual graces necessary to seek and find the truth.  It is a process.  Those who are not aware of the necessity of baptism, through no fault of their own, can obtain sanctifying grace before being baptized.  This is the teaching of the Church.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why Feeneyites Hate Catholic Teaching
    « Reply #149 on: August 23, 2017, 01:13:54 PM »
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  • "… impossible…" Man, the faith is rolling off this one like the waves at Laguna at no tide…
    I do deny that.  I accept EENS.  It is indeed possible to be in a state of sanctifying grace apart from baptism when sacramental baptism is impossible.  Supernatural Faith and perfect charity is given to us by God.  He gives us the actual graces necessary to seek and find the truth.  It is a process.  Those who are not aware of the necessity of baptism, through no fault of their own, can obtain sanctifying grace before being baptized.  This is the teaching of the Church. 
    "Lord, have mercy".