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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 31494 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • Limbo can't be applied to adults because the adults have reached the age of reason and sinned. Besides, I have never heard of unbaptized adults going to Limbo, which is an earthly paradise, you'll have to provide sources for that idea. 

    There are no sources; it's speculative.  Limbo itself began as speculation.

    I can see cases where someone has lived a naturally-virtuous life ... and then performed some naturally-heroic act like giving his life for others where, although he did not have supernatural charity, the natural virtue would offset the natural (temporal) punishment due to various sins he may have committed during his life, thus wiping the slate clean on the temporal side.

    Recall that, with sin, there's a supernatural/eternal aspect and then a natural/temporal aspect.  Mortal sin not only causes the loss of supernatural grace, but also entails a certain amount of temporal punishment.  While no natural virtue can undo the loss of supernatural grace, I hold that natural virtue can in fact offset the natural/temporal punishment due so that, theoretically, adults can be in Limbo ... or in some state very close to Limbo ... where they suffer very little for all eternity.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • There are no sources; it's speculative.  Limbo itself began as speculation.

    I can see cases where someone has lived a naturally-virtuous life ... and then performed some naturally-heroic act like giving his life for others where, although he did not have supernatural charity, the natural virtue would offset the natural (temporal) punishment due to various sins he may have committed during his life, thus wiping the slate clean on the temporal side.

    Recall that, with sin, there's a supernatural/eternal aspect and then a natural/temporal aspect.  Mortal sin not only causes the loss of supernatural grace, but also entails a certain amount of temporal punishment.  While no natural virtue can undo the loss of supernatural grace, I hold that natural virtue can in fact offset the natural/temporal punishment due so that, theoretically, adults can be in Limbo ... or in some state very close to Limbo ... where they suffer very little for all eternity.
    Speculations on this matter on a public forum is not a good idea, before you know it, every non-Catholic is in Limbo of the Infants. It is called Limbo of the infants for a reason. Stick with "or in some state very close to Limbo ... where they suffer very little for all eternity". That is why I said:

    Quote
    Only children who die unbaptized before the age of reason go to Limbo.

    There are however different degrees of punishment in hell. A "good" Hindu may end up in a part of Hell that is like living in Alaska in the Winter like the Eskimos, or living in Panama swamps like the Indians did, or being stuck 24/7 on Cathinfo info putting up with EENS deniers "what about ifs".



    Offline Matto

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  • There are no sources; it's speculative.  Limbo itself began as speculation.

    I can see cases where someone has lived a naturally-virtuous life ... and then performed some naturally-heroic act like giving his life for others where, although he did not have supernatural charity, the natural virtue would offset the natural (temporal) punishment due to various sins he may have committed during his life, thus wiping the slate clean on the temporal side.

    So you argue that there is no salvation without water baptism, but there is forgiveness of sin without baptism, but not enough forgiveness as to grant salvation?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
     I assume you also condemn +Williamson and +ABL as heretics then?

    Yes, +ABL said similar nonsense, which I condemned in other threads.  Not sure about +W but I have criticized him about the new mass.
    .
    As this thread’s title indicates, the poison of V2’s “Universal salvation” began decades and decades before the 60s and most Catholics are wrong, including most current Trads. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Speculations on this matter on a public forum is not a good idea, before you know it, every non-Catholic is in Limbo of the Infants. It is called Limbo of the infants for a reason.
    LT, you’re missing the point.  Apart from the “Limbo of the Just” in the OT, the entire idea of Limbo for the New Testament is speculative.  I don’t have to believe any of it.  It’s not defined. So no one can say the details 100%.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • LT, you’re missing the point.  Apart from the “Limbo of the Just” in the OT, the entire idea of Limbo for the New Testament is speculative.  I don’t have to believe any of it.  It’s not defined. So no one can say the details 100%.
    Limbo of the infants is not "all" speculative. You'll have to prove that one. 

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • LT, you’re missing the point.  Apart from the “Limbo of the Just” in the OT, the entire idea of Limbo for the New Testament is speculative.  I don’t have to believe any of it.  It’s not defined. So no one can say the details 100%.
    Limbo of the infants is not "all" speculative.

    Here's a copy and paste from my archives from like three docuмents. Some quotes my be repeated:
     
    The Limbus
    Infantium, or Limbo of Infants, is the abode where the
    souls of those who die in Original Sin, but without personal
    (actual) sin, are deprived of the happiness that
    would come to them in the supernatural order,
    but not of the happiness of the natural order.       It is an article of faith,
    most recently confirmed at the dogmatic Council
    of Trent, that those who die without Baptism, and in whose case the want of Baptism has not been supplied in any other way,
    cannot enter heaven.  Nothing imperfect
    can be in the presence of God, as we know from the Apocalypse:  "There shall not enter into it [the
    glory of God] any thing defiled"
    (21:27/DRV).  The great majority of the

    authoritative theologians of the
    Church, among them Peter Abelard, St. Bonaventure, St. Thomas Aquinas,




    Duns Scotus, teach that infants dying in Original Sin suffer no "pain of sense," but are excluded from heaven.





    This opinion is no modern invention, for it is found in St. Gregory of nαzιanzus
    (Or. in Sanct. Baptism 23, PG XXXVI:389), one of the Great Eastern Fathers of the
    Church.  St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that such souls do not suffer pain of
    sense because pain of punishment is proportioned to personal guilt, which does
    not exist here.  He says that those in limbo do not grieve because they
    cannot see God any more than a bird grieves because it cannot be a king.
     "No, they rejoice because they share in God's goodness and in many
    natural perfections," he says.  The unbaptized in limbo know and love
    God by

     the use of their natural powers, and have full natural happiness.  




    (De Malo, 5:3; Sent. II
    d. 33 Q. 2 A. 2)





            St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church's principal theologian, teaches that 

    unbaptized children do not suffer pain because of their privation.  They are 

    not capable of the grace of the supernatural order, which is not owed to man 

    (the word "grace" itself denotes something "gratuitous" from God), but 

    possess a natural well-being that results from their being united to God by 

    their participation in His natural goods.


            Following the teachings of the Prince of Theologians, St. Augustine 

    of Hippo, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and the Scholastic Theologians, 

    including the Seraphic Doctor St. Bonaventure and the Universal Doctor St. 

    Thomas Aquinas, the Seventeenth Oecuмenical Council in 1438-1445) adopted an 

    canonized as a matter of faith:  "illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali 

    peccato vel solo originali decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen 

    disparibus puniendas [the souls of those who die in actual Mortal Sin or only 

    Original Sin, thereupon descend into Hell, but to be punished with disparate 

    punishments]."


            In 1794 Pope Pius XI confirmed the existence of Limbo as a place 

    lacking the Beatific Vision, but without the pain of punishment



    This is the teaching of the Church and cannot be denied, having behind it 

    both antiquity from Patristic times and from the Scholastic Theologians, 

    including St. Thomas Aquinas.



    Further Authoritative Teaching of the Church
    "[Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God."
    -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores
    “The common teaching of the scholastic theologians is the within the earth there are four inner chambers: one for the damned, another for those being purged of sin, a third for those infants who have died without receiving Baptism, and a fourth which is now empty but once held those just men who died before the passion of Christ.”
    -Saint Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Doctor of the Church

    “The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo of the children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire… is false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.”
    -Pope Pius VI, Auctorem Fidei, August 28, 1794


    The Council of Florence, 1438 1445
    Decree for the Greeks
    But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.(Denzinger 693)


    The Council of Florence, 1438 1445
    Bull of Union with the Copts
    With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians. (Denzinger 712)

    Council of Lyons IL (1274)
    The Souls of those that die in mortal sin or in original sin go down into Hell, but there they receive different punishments.   (Denzinger 464)
                                                                                                                   
    Council of Carthage, (417 418)
    Original Sin and Grace   Canon 2
    If anyone should say that newborn children need not be baptized that no original sin is derived from Adam to be washed away in the laver of regeneration, so that in their case the baptismal formula for the remission of sins is to be taken in a fictitious and not in the true sense, "let him be Anathema"   (Denzinger 102)

    Innocent III 1198 1216
    The effect of Baptism
    The punishment of original sin is the deprivation of the vision of God but the punishment of actual is the torments of everlasting hell ... (Denzinger 410)

    Errors of the Synod of Pistoia
    [Condemnations in the Constitution, "Auctorem fidei, " Aug. 28, 1794]
    The Punishment of Those Who Die with Original Sin
    [Baptism, sec. 3]
    26.The doctrine which rejects as Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions ( which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished of with  the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if. by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,
    false, rash, injurious to Catholic teachings.  (CONDEMNED)  (Denzinger 1526)







    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Limbo of the infants is not "all" speculative.

    Did you read what I actually wrote?  It STARTED OUT as pure speculation.  For about 700 years after St. Augustine, all theologians believed that unbaptized infants suffered (albeit lightly) in hell.  It was Abelard who questioned this teaching, and then the Church sided with him on the matter and made Limbo Church teaching.

    BTW:  Abelard also rejected Baptism of Desire.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • So you argue that there is no salvation without water baptism, but there is forgiveness of sin without baptism, but not enough forgiveness as to grant salvation?

    Not forgiveness per se, but, rather, the remission of temporal punishment due to it.

    Let's say that a non-Catholic (who is not saved) steals $1,000.  He repents, repays the $1,000, and then donates $10,000 to the poor.  That reparation offsets some or all of his TEMPORAL punishment due to the sin ... per my speculation.  I don't believe that God would punish him the same as if he had stolen the $1,000 and never repented of it.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Did you read what I actually wrote?  It STARTED OUT as pure speculation.  For about 700 years after St. Augustine, all theologians believed that unbaptized infants suffered (albeit lightly) in hell.  It was Abelard who questioned this teaching, and then the Church sided with him on the matter and made Limbo Church teaching.

    BTW:  Abelard also rejected Baptism of Desire.
    The quote didn't come from you it came from Pax, and I was replying to him.

    Quote
    PAX wrote:
     LT, you’re missing the point.  Apart from the “Limbo of the Just” in the OT, the entire idea of Limbo for the New Testament is speculative.  I don’t have to believe any of it.  It’s not defined. So no one can say the details 100%.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • From reviewing your citations of Church teaching, it seems certain that unbaptized infants do not suffer any pain of sense, but not completely certain whether they suffer pain of loss.

    Here I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that there's no pain of loss.  Human nature is not deprived by virtue of not having the beatific vision since it is not within the capacity of human nature to experience this.  I like the example of a bird not grieving on account of not being a king.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • From reviewing your citations of Church teaching, it seems certain that unbaptized infants do not suffer any pain of sense, but not completely certain whether they suffer pain of loss.

    Here I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that there's no pain of loss.  Human nature is not deprived by virtue of not having the beatific vision since it is not within the capacity of human nature to experience this.  I like the example of a bird not grieving on account of not being a king.
    Yes, that bird/king analogy struck me too, I had forgotten it. I notice now that I am in my 60's that I can remember every detail and word and location of anything I did when I was like 40 and under, but things after like 40, as time went by I would not remember the details, but I knew the lesson well. Unfortunately, I came back to the faith when I was 42, and I knew nothing. I voraciously went through $7000 worth of books on the Faith from that time, and some of the details that I know, I don't remember exactly where they came from, but I know they are correct and what I learned from good sources. If I had learned this when I was in the teens and up, I think I'd know exactly from where it came from.

    Anyhow, it occurred to me that this subject of no adults (people who have reached the age of reason)  in the Limbo of the Infants brings forward how a subject is discussed by people who are precise. One can see how it developed in just a few posts. It started with this posting #89 below by Pax and very quickly the minute detail was discussed and by the contributions of the three Lad, Pax, LT.

    Quote

    1.  As Lad said, actual graces exist outside the Church.
    2.  One is only "joined" to the Church he if is a member.  Non-members are not "joined"; this is a modernist ideal.
    3.  One cannot be in the state of sanctifying grace, unless he is 1) repentant of his mortal sins (if any), 2) receives remission of Original Sin.
    4.  Contrition for one's sins, no matter how perfect, cannot remove Original Sin from one's soul.  Ergo, the unbaptized cannot attain sanctifying grace apart from Baptism.
    5.  Baptism here defined means the actual sacrament, or the desire of it (accompanied by the desire to enter the Church and an acceptance of the Trinity/Incarnation, at minimum).
    6.  All actual graces that an unbaptized person receives through an act of contrition are given that they may seek out and accept the Church, only through which they can be saved.
    7.  An unbaptized person who dies repentant for their sins, but not desiring of the Church or baptism, would go to Limbo as they cannot enter heaven with Original Sin on their souls.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • From reviewing your citations of Church teaching, it seems certain that unbaptized infants do not suffer any pain of sense, but not completely certain whether they suffer pain of loss.

    Here I agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that there's no pain of loss.  Human nature is not deprived by virtue of not having the beatific vision since it is not within the capacity of human nature to experience this.  I like the example of a bird not grieving on account of not being a king.
    Here is more detail for discussion regarding the "good" Hindu going to a gentler part of Hell. You said it would be almost like Limbo of the Infants  "some state very close to Limbo ... where they suffer very little for all eternity", while I had said: A "good" Hindu may end up in a part of Hell that is like living in Alaska in the Winter like the Eskimos, or living in Panama swamps like the Indians did, or being stuck 24/7 on Cathinfo info putting up with EENS deniers "what about ifs".

    Notice the difference, my examples are not paradises, they are punishments, but they are not so bad compared to everyone's erroneous vision of a uniform Hell fire for everyone, billions of people have lived on Earth through the centuries those ways and knew no better. While in your example the are in a paradise that has never existed on Earth. I think that is what the common man today thinks his Heaven will be. Here is what leaps out at me:

    Quote

     

    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." (The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97)




    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul. 



    I think that the "good" Hindu died as an infant and is in Limbo. I think that the "a little less good than the Hindu", the adult "Native on an Island", was put on an island  so that he had no access to Catholicism and would not suffer the deepest pits of Hell. The deepest pits of Hell are reserved for Catholics. 

     



    Quote
    From Mystical City of God , by Sister Mary of Agreda.
     
    537. Seeing him (Judas) thus beside himself Lucifer inspired him with the thought of hunting up the priests, returning to them the money and confessing his sin. This Judas hastened to do, and he loudly shouted at them those words: "I have sinned, betraying innocent blood!" (Matth. 27, 4). But they, not less hardened, answered that he should have seen to that before. The intention of the demon was to hinder the death of Christ if possible, for reasons already given and yet to be given (No. 419). This repulse of the priests, so full of impious cruelty, took away all hope from Judas and he persuaded himself that it was impossible to hinder the death of his Master. So thought also the demon, although later on he made more efforts to forestall it through Pilate. But as Judas could be of no more use to him for his purpose, he augmented his distress and despair, persuading him that in order to avoid severer punishments he must end his life. Judas yielded to this terrible deceit, and rushing forth from the city, hung himself on a dried-out figtree (Matth. 27, 5). Thus he that was the murderer of his Creator, became also his own murderer. This happened on Friday at twelve o'clock, three hours before our Savior died. It was not becoming that his death and the consummation of our Redemption should coincide too closely with the execrable end of the traitorous disciple, who hated him with fiercest malice.
     
    538. The demons at once took possession of the soul of Judas and brought it down to hell. His entrails burst from the body hanging upon the tree (Acts 1, 18). All that saw this stupendous pimishment of the perfidious and malicious disciple for his treason, were filled with astonishment and dread. The body remained hanging by the neck for three days, exposed to the view of the public. During that time the Jews attempted to take it down f rom the tree and to bury it in secret, for it was a sight apt to cause great confusion to the pharisees and priests, who could not refute such a testimony of his wickedness. But no efforts of theirs sufficed to drag or separate the body from its position on the tree until three days had passed, when, according to the dispensation of divine justice, the demons themselves snatched the body from the tree and brought it to his soul, in order that both might suffer eternal punishment in the profoundest abyss of hell. Since what I have been made to know of the pains and chastisements of Judas, is worthy of fear-inspiring attention, I will according to command reveal what has been shown me concerning it. Among the obscure caverns of the infernal prisons was a very large one, arranged for more horrible chastisements than the others, and which was still unoccupied; for the demons had been unable to cast any soul into it, although their cruelty had induced them to attempt it many times from the time of Cain unto that day. All hell had remained astonished at the failure of these attempts, being entirely ignorant of the mystery, until the arrival of the soul of Judas, which they readily succeeded in hurling and burying in this prison never before occupied by any of the damned. The secret of it was, that this cavern of greater torments and fiercer fires of hell, from the creation of the world, had been destined for those, who, after having received Baptism, would damn themselves by the neglect of the Sacraments, the doctrines, the Passion and Death of the Savior, and the intercession of his most holy Mother. As Judas had been the first one who had so signally participated in these blessings, and as he had so fearfully misused them, he was also the first to suffer the torments of this place, prepared for him and his imitators and followers.
     
    539. This mystery I was commanded to reveal more particularly for a dreadful warning to all Christians, and especially to the priests, prelates and religious, who are accustomed to treat with more familiarity the body and blood of Christ our Lord, and who, by their office and state are his closer friends. In order to avoid blame I would like to find words and expressions sufficiently strong to make an impression on our unfeeling obduracy, so that we all may take a salutary warning and be filled with the fear of the punishments awaiting all bad Christians according to the station each one of us occupies. The demons torment Judas with inexpressible cruelty, because he persisted in the betrayal of his Master, by whose Passion and Death they were vanquished and despoiled of the possession of the world. The wrath which they had conceived against the Savior and his blessed Mother, they wreck, as far as is allowed them, on all those who imitate the traitorous disciple and who follow him in his contempt of the evangelical law, of the Sacraments and of the fruits of the Redemption. And in this the demons are but executing just punishment on those members of the mystical body of Christ, who have severed their connection with its head Christ, and who have voluntarily drifted away and delivered themselves over to the accursed hate and implacable fury of his enemies. As the instruments of divine justice they chastise the redeemed for their ingratitude toward their Redeemer. Let the children of the Church consider well this truth, for it cannot fail to move their hearts and induce them to evade such a lamentable fate.



     

     

     

     


    .


    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Even one of your own quotes is general enough to support the possibility that an adult can be in limbo.  I don’t get why you’re drawing a line in the sand on this. It’s unknown, but you’re acting like it’s obvious.  It’s debatable.  
    .
    .
    [Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God."
    -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Even one of your own quotes is general enough to support the possibility that an adult can be in limbo.  I don’t get why you’re drawing a line in the sand on this. It’s unknown, but you’re acting like it’s obvious.  It’s debatable.  
    .
    .
    [Those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer] no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God."
    -Pope Innocent III (1160-1216), Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii -- Majores
    The reason why I do it is because I have never heard of it before, it is called Limbo of the Infants for a reason. The above quote would apply to the mentally handicapped, who are mentally like children. If you clearly describe a healthy normal adult that fits the above quote, and use the quote, then I'd be alright with it, but you'd have to be very precise in your description. A healthy adult with no sins except original sin and God lets him live to adulthood to end up in Limbo of the infants? Why would God not take him as an infant?