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Author Topic: Why do all major Trad organisations teach those in false religions can be saved?  (Read 31618 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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  • Can you explain what is contradictory?  I have literally explained to you that if such a person is actually Invincibly ignorant of the Faith, God can save them just as Pius IX taught by Divine Light and Grace. So where is the contradiction? In my above posts that's exactly what I have said, that non-catholics do not go to Heaven, but that these people have a rare miracle of conversion, there by becoming Catholic. Again where is the contradiction?
    Nowhere is it taught? Well Pius IX and all catechisms and approved theologians past him teach it. Many before them teach the same. Your asserting the Church approved of heresy....
    With all due respect it's almost as if you are not even reading my posts at all, as I have explained pretty much everything your claiming I'm not.
    Pope Pius XII taught that an act of perfect charity is sufficient for salvation for adults who are not baptized, is that heresy?
    Hi, David.

    What exactly are you saying that Pius IX taught? You say, "invincibly ignorant of the Faith." If you mean invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church, it appears - this is not definitive - that Pius IX taught that. I maintain he most certainly did not teach that a person can be saved while invincibly ignorant of "the Faith," which, if he possesses, he may be joined to the Church without receiving the sacrament of baptism.

    A great discussion - the best I've read - of Pius IX's encyclical Quanto Conficiamur is attached. It's from John Daly's book, Michael Davies An Evaluation, and the whole book is available for free here: https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/michael-davies-evaluation.pdf

    Please don't say or at least imply that Pius IX taught that those who did not believe in Our Lord and the True God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) can be saved - which, by another implication, could mean Christ deniers (professing Jews, Muslims, etc.) as well.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Sorry for getting the attachments out of order. You can click on them and follow by page number. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Pius IX clearly taught that such a one can receive Divine light and Grace
    Question 1:  You say an invincibly ignorant person can receive Divine Light regarding...what?  Either they die invincibly ignorant or they don't.  Either they are saved invincibly ignorant or they aren't.  You keep saying they are saved in invincible ignorance, yet you contradictorily say God gives them an extraordinary grace of "Divine Light"?  It makes no sense. 
    .
    Question 2:  When did Pius IX say this?  Before or after his rejection of Modernism and conversion to Orthodoxy?  Because he started off as a "mini JPII" and all the liberals loved him.  But God did grant him "Divine Light" to see his errors and he rejected his liberalism and converted.  That's why he was locked up in the Vatican by freemasons and almost killed.  Because he fought their lies and deceits.
    .
    Question 3:  Did Pius IX "teach" this as a doctrine of the Faith, to be believed by all, required for heaven, under pain of sin?  If not, then his "teaching" was done as a private theologian, as it's part of the ordinary, fallible magisterium, and his opinion is just as good as any other theologian's.  In other words, no catholic is obligated to follow him or accept his arguments in the least.


    Offline Davidmehs

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  • 1863 Quanto Conficiamur Moerore #7. He clearly states unambiguously that there is no salvation outside the Church. In the very next sentence he affirms that there are those struggling with Invincible Ignorance of the True Religion, he then says by divine light and grace such a person if meeting the requirements could achieve salvation. 

    He does not say they will be baptized. He could of but he didnt. God knows these people and he knows truly who is not guilty in this regard.

    This is just a few short years before Vatican I. It's not a contradiction, it doesnt deny EENS. He wasnt some idiot who didnt know what he was writing or meant, and didnt contradict himself in the very same paragraph.  The common opinion held by theologians is faith in the Trinity and Incarnation are necessary, therefore it flows logically that God enlightens these people who appear to die invincibly ignorant of the Faith. That's why Pius IX doesnt say they will formally join the Church through baptism, but by a miracle of God by Divine Light and Grace.

    You guys keep looking for some "aha gotcha " moment that's not there. All the approved theologians after him and under him affirm this truth. 

    Again you just completely ignore the logical fact that you implicitly are saying the Church approved of heresy.

    BOD is officially taught in the Catechism of the Council of Trent.  Issued by Pius V, written by saints, accepted universally by all Catholics. How can anyone say it's not officially taught? 

    Yup, doesnt come with an excathedra stamp, open for rejection by the lay theologian. God teaches only through excathedra proclamations which only happen every hundred years. Give me a break.

    Again can anyone answer if what Pius XII taught was public heresy. If so then why is he not a public heretic. AMD furthermore if such is the case that only excathedra proclamations are to be believed then why even have a Pope? You guys are saying that God established a Pope that is subject to scrutiny, not a safe rule of faith, can teach public heresy. This is a joke right? Pius XII taught BOD publicly acting as the official Pastor of the Church, but you know better then he. He was wrong and you are right...

    Keep reading that Denzinger guys....

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    The common opinion held by theologians is faith in the Trinity and Incarnation are necessary,
    It's a common THEORY but it's not unanimously agreed upon.
    .
     
    Quote
    therefore it flows logically that God enlightens these people who appear to die invincibly ignorant of the Faith.
    As the theory, goes, you are correct.  The key word is they "appear" to die in ignorance.  Since God enlightens them, then they do not die in ignorance, but in 1) knowledge of the Faith, and 2) acceptance of the Faith.
    .
    What I am debating with you (and with many others) is your imprecise and quasi-heretical language.  It is wrong to say that an invincibly ignorant person, who is sincere and loves God, can be saved.  Absolutely, positively they cannot.  It is only accurate to say that those who know the faith (incarnation/trinity at a minimum), desire it, desire baptism, can be saved (assuming, which is debatable, that God would not provide them baptism, as He has done miraculously in many other cases.  But I digress...). 
    .
    The point is that ignorant people cannot be saved, but only those who are FORMERLY ignorant, who have been ENLIGHTENED by grace, are saved.  Thus, those who are formerly ignorant, are now Catholics before they die.  Thus, as is catholic doctrine, only good Catholics are saved.
    .
    Quote
    In the very next sentence he affirms that there are those struggling with Invincible Ignorance of the True Religion, he then says by divine light and grace such a person if meeting the requirements could achieve salvation. 
    Yes, they can achieve salvation, IF THEIR IGNORANCE IS ENLIGHTENED and thus NO LONGER EXISTS.  But they cannot be saved IN SPITE OF, CONTRARY TO, or WITH their ignorance intact.
    .
    Pius IX's language here (at least in the English translation) is sloppy.  The way it's translated, makes one think that an ignorant person can be saved, when that's not what he's saying.  Either way, this encyclical is not infallible, nor is it teaching doctrine formally, so it's Pius' theological opinion, not formal Church teaching.  He's correct in a sense, but he was also a big liberal for much of his life, and his imprecision and pre-Vatican 2 "salvation for all" type of thinking is apparent here and in seed form.  I critique his orthodoxy here as I am allowed to do with fallible docuмents (especially those which contract infallible ones).


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Excellent point, indeed. You obviously don’t hold the actual Feeney position. It seems to me that you are more inline with my position. Am I wrong or do you think that my position is just an allowable one?

    I've never had a huge issue with someone who believes in a Thomistic BoD.  One of my favorites posters on the subject of EENS was Arvinger, and he happened to believe in a Thomistic BoD, but was otherwise very solid on EENS.  What I've always had issues with is the "Rewarder God" theory, which I hold to be materially/objectively heretical.  It was UNANIMOUSLY believed and taught by all Catholics everywhere for 1600 years that explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity were necessary for salvation.  If anything ever qualified as an infallible teaching of the OUM, this was it.  But then some Jesuits started dabbling around the year 1600 with Rewarder God theory based on the motivation of trying to get the recently-discovered "savages" of the New World into heaven somehow.  So, emotionally-driven "theology".  I like it how the BoDers claim that since during the past couple hundred years very few theologians did not believe in BoD that we MUST believe it, but then these Jesuits in 1600 were allowed to innovate and not required to accept the prior teaching.  It's just so much hypocrisy.  People simply try to justify what they want to believe.

    Look, a Doctor of the Church believed in BoD.  Who exactly am I (or the Dimond brothers) to claim that it may not be believed by Catholics and even heretical to believe?  I've called the Dimonds out for this.  I simply don't happen to believe in it, but it's my personal opinion.  Most people don't know that Father Feeney's battle was primarily about EENS and that his opinion on BoD came later.  Father Feeney also stated that his position on BoD was only his personal opinion and that he would retract it immediately if the Magisterium were to come down against his position.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • So basically here is where your position boils down to.
    Premise 1. BOD and invincible ignorance are heresy
    Since you state your first premise,  the LOGICAL conclusion of that assertment is that the Church defended, taught, and propagated heresy through basically every ecclesiastical institution.  
    Conclusion. The Church can and has defected.
    Dogmas are understood as the Church understands them, not you bud. You cant quote a single post-trent source that contradicts, condemns, or refutes BOD/Invincible ignorance.
    It's not really me your saying is contradictory, but the Church herself.
    Pope Pius XII taught that an act of perfect charity is sufficient for Unbaptized adults for salvation. Is that heresy?
    Strawman.  LT never said BOD & Inv Ign are heresy. The writer's "logical  conclusion" is his own. Then he claims his dogmas are to be understood as the Church understands them, but he ignores all of the clear dogmas on the subject and quotes, what? Nothing. These people have no common sense. The dogmas below do not mean what they clearly say, but a fallible quote from anyone is absolutely to be followed as he sees it. 

     

    Quote
    Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, any person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy!
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     
     Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     
     
     
     Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
     
     “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a god that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
     
     
     
    Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.
     
     A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
     By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     
     Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
     
     This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
     
     Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism
    Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is  belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.” ( persons who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)
     
     
     (Oh, I forgot invincible ignorance, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invincible ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)



    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Pius IX's language here (at least in the English translation) is sloppy.  The way it's translated, makes one think that an ignorant person can be saved, when that's not what he's saying.  Either way, this encyclical is not infallible, nor is it teaching doctrine formally, so it's Pius' theological opinion, not formal Church teaching.  He's correct in a sense, but he was also a big liberal for much of his life, and his imprecision and pre-Vatican 2 "salvation for all" type of thinking is apparent here and in seed form.  I critique his orthodoxy here as I am allowed to do with fallible docuмents (especially those which contract infallible ones).
    The docuмent is not clear (nor is it teaching doctrine formally, so it's Pius' theological opinion, not formal Church teaching), thus it is totally open to interpretation. The BODer clings to his personal interpretation and denies all the clear dogmas that say nobody can be saved, even if the shed their blood for Christ. I tell you this answers everything, people like this simple refuse to believe:

    Quote
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death. It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    From CI thread :  https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/sede-fr-cekada-refuses-to-believe-eens-dogmas-as-they-are-written/msg662416/#msg662416


    The BODer clings to his personal interpretation of unclear, fallible theological opinions and denies all the clear infallible dogmas that say nobody, nobody at all, no one at all, every human creature,   even if they shed their blood for Christ, without a doubt...




    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jews can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     
     Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”





    Offline Davidmehs

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  • It's like beating a dead horse with you people.  Let's do this again. I will keep it simple.

    Premise for anti BOD/Invincible ignorance 
    1. It is absolutely necessary,  in all cases, without exception that nobody at all is saved without the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. This is dogma. No baptism=outside the Church, no exceptions.

    Premise 2. 
    To deny a defined dogma is heresy, thus separating oneself from the Church.

    Premise 3. 
    BOD/Invincible ignorance teaches that someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Conclusion. BOD/Invincible ignorance are heresy.

    Not that hard to follow is it? 

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, promulgated by the order of Pius V, written by saints,accepted universally by the Church, teaches someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of baptism, right after the Council of Trent issued its defined decrees. Conclusion....wait for it.... the Church propagated, taught, defended, and distributed FORMAL HERESY to the Church. 

    For he that believes no explanation is necessary,  for him that does not, no explanation will suffice.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • It's like beating a dead horse with you people.  Let's do this again. I will keep it simple.

    Premise for anti BOD/Invincible ignorance
    1. It is absolutely necessary,  in all cases, without exception that nobody at all is saved without the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. This is dogma. No baptism=outside the Church, no exceptions.

    Premise 2.
    To deny a defined dogma is heresy, thus separating oneself from the Church.

    Premise 3.
    BOD/Invincible ignorance teaches that someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Conclusion. BOD/Invincible ignorance are heresy.

    Not that hard to follow is it?

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, promulgated by the order of Pius V, written by saints,accepted universally by the Church, teaches someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of baptism, right after the Council of Trent issued its defined decrees. Conclusion....wait for it.... the Church propagated, taught, defended, and distributed FORMAL HERESY to the Church.

    For he that believes no explanation is necessary,  for him that does not, no explanation will suffice.
    Except most "Feeneyites" would reject your premise 1: they would allow for the exception of explicit desire for baptism in the case of a catechumen, and thus agree with the Catechism of Trent. Is  there anywhere a group with a better claim to being "Feeneyite" than the St. Benedict Center in Richmond, NH? Well, the SBC's Br. Andre would reject your premise 1.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • The docuмent is not clear (nor is it teaching doctrine formally, so it's Pius' theological opinion, not formal Church teaching), thus it is totally open to interpretation. The BODer clings to his personal interpretation and denies all the clear dogmas that say nobody can be saved, even if the shed their blood for Christ. I tell you this answers everything, people like this simple refuse to believe:


    The BODer clings to his personal interpretation of unclear, fallible theological opinions and denies all the clear infallible dogmas that say nobody, nobody at all, no one at all, every human creature,   even if they shed their blood for Christ, without a doubt...
    True again!


    Page 51 in Who Shall Ascend? quoted below, addresses the error of Davidmehs:


    Quote
    "Incredible to say, it is the sentence [that Davidmehs references] which is printed in bold letters, which is used as proof that the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is not a Catholic dogma, and this, when it is sandwiched between two explicit affirmations of this truth. The sentence can be used to deny the dogma only if it is lifted out of its context between these two affirmations, and deliberately misunderstood or mistranslated"....

    He then goes on to expose said error.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • David, if you want to study/debate theology, you had better have patience and an aptitude for precise language, which is necessary for proper distinctions.  You started this thread claiming distinctions are necessary and then your syllogisms above overly-generalize your opponent’s views.  That’s wrong.  
    .
    P.S.  you’ve yet to admit the fact that Pius IX was a big liberal until he converted.  You can’t take everything he wrote as orthodox. 

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Catechism of the Council of Trent, promulgated by the order of Pius V, written by saints,accepted universally by the Church, teaches someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of baptism, right after the Council of Trent issued its defined decrees. Conclusion....wait for it.... the Church propagated, taught, defended, and distributed FORMAL HERESY to the Church.
    No, Trent's catechism does NOT teach someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of baptism.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • It's like beating a dead horse with you people.

    Lay off this condescending tripe.

    You've discredited yourself by claiming that BoD applies to the baptized.

    You've constructed one bad syllogism after another.

    You've gratuitously asserted that Traditional Catholics make the "proper distinctions" regarding EENS to avoid heresy, but they most certainly do not.  You didn't and won't be able to prove this, because very few of them have ever bothered to write or speak about the EENS issue in any detail.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • It's like beating a dead horse with you people.  Let's do this again. I will keep it simple.

    Premise for anti BOD/Invincible ignorance
    1. It is absolutely necessary,  in all cases, without exception that nobody at all is saved without the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism. This is dogma. No baptism=outside the Church, no exceptions.

    Premise 2.
    To deny a defined dogma is heresy, thus separating oneself from the Church.

    Premise 3.
    BOD/Invincible ignorance teaches that someone can achieve salvation apart from the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Conclusion. BOD/Invincible ignorance are heresy.

    Not that hard to follow is it?

    You are arguing pretty much only against the Dimonds here.  Very few "Feeneyites" actually hold that BoD is heresy.  It might actually shock you to hear that BoD itself isn't the central question for most true "Feeneyites".